Specific heat capacity and cooling.

[Lilscratchy]

Hey guys, back again. 

Lately I've been playing around with using slightly different cooling sources than I'm used to. I try using, for example, the liquid carbon dioxide from a geyser and several AETN's around the map. A bit of a change of scenery from the usual steamturbines aquatuner set up

Now I have some plans for creating magma myself as my only volcanoes are buried deep within the magma biome so I can't touch those for a while. However this gets me to rocketry. Just like with melting regolith I use a heat battery with salt, which when evaporated also has a met energy gain in terms of specific heat capacity. I chain two of them coupled with thermal injectors and I can create large amounts of magma pretty quickly. By cycling regolith through them. 

NOW, I was wondering does anyone know if there is a reverse to this effect? Are there materials that become solids or liquids at low temperatures, which somehow get a lower specific heat capacity after they freeze? I don't know if simply reversing the conditions would actually result in a net energy loss, I'm not too physics savvy. But it'd seem like if this were the case we could gain some cool new cooling tricks

I don't really have a lot of time to play or research this myself. But I was hoping someone can shed some light on this. Haven't read about it anywhere so my hopes are slim. But it never hurts to try. 

Anyways, thanks in advance guys! 

[nakomaru]

5 hours ago, Lilscratchy said:

Are there materials that become solids or liquids at low temperatures, which somehow get a lower specific heat capacity after they freeze?

Compared to gas, salt has a lower SHC as a liquid and ethanol has higher SHC as a liquid. Ethanol can delete heat as you cycle between phases just as salt can create it. Check it out.

[Lilscratchy]

9 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Compared to gas, salt has a lower SHC as a liquid and ethanol has higher SHC as a liquid. Ethanol can delete heat as you cycle between phases just as salt can create it. Check it out.

Oh wow that's pretty nice! Not what I expected. So ethanol is the only element that gets a lower SHC as it evaporates.

Shame there aren't any more elements that can do this but hey its definitely useful

I'll definitely play around with this one. Thanks! 

[TheMule]

48 minutes ago, Lilscratchy said:

I'll definitely play around with this one. Thanks!

I'm under the impression that it's value is only in entertainment. It's not really a useful mechanism unless you're really in rare and dire conditions.

A standard steam turbine is the best way of deleting heat, generally speaking. Deleting heat w/o converting it into power is a waste, in the current meta. At least, that is 99% of the times.

There are some builds that use heat deletion when heat is so small that the added complexity of a steam turbine doesn't pay off. A hydrogen power plant, for example, can (and most of the times does) use the hydrogen it burns for heat deletion. You just build the generators with golden amalgam and use radiant pipes to distribute the hydrogen. The heat they produce is not worth harvesting for the extra power.

SHC tricks to delete heat are cool and entertaining, but hardly more than that. And while on the subject, you can delete heat by exploiting the 1.5C temp reset elements get when they evaporate. I suspect the "crab" exploits that too, combined with the SHC difference. IIRC someone posted the equivalent with water/steam, which still works w/o any difference in SHC.

On this forum there have been quite a few lengthy threads on heat deletion bugs in steam turbine setups recently. I'd say if you want to explore alternate mechanisms to delete heat other that the "boring" steam turbine, that's a great place to start.

[JRup]

11 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Ethanol can delete heat as you cycle between phases just as salt can create it.

The Crying Crab already had its 1st b-day, does it still work after all the patch shenanigans? I'm also curious if someone's done a crazy and tried a thermo regulator on this and had it work...

[Lilscratchy]

4 hours ago, TheMule said:

I'm under the impression that it's value is only in entertainment. It's not really a useful mechanism unless you're really in rare and dire conditions.

A standard steam turbine is the best way of deleting heat, generally speaking. Deleting heat w/o converting it into power is a waste, in the current meta. At least, that is 99% of the times.

There are some builds that use heat deletion when heat is so small that the added complexity of a steam turbine doesn't pay off. A hydrogen power plant, for example, can (and most of the times does) use the hydrogen it burns for heat deletion. You just build the generators with golden amalgam and use radiant pipes to distribute the hydrogen. The heat they produce is not worth harvesting for the extra power.

SHC tricks to delete heat are cool and entertaining, but hardly more than that. And while on the subject, you can delete heat by exploiting the 1.5C temp reset elements get when they evaporate. I suspect the "crab" exploits that too, combined with the SHC difference. IIRC someone posted the equivalent with water/steam, which still works w/o any difference in SHC.

On this forum there have been quite a few lengthy threads on heat deletion bugs in steam turbine setups recently. I'd say if you want to explore alternate mechanisms to delete heat other that the "boring" steam turbine, that's a great place to start.

I'm aware that the steam turbine is likely the best way to delete heat. On the other hand I'm not really looking to be using bugs or glitches, at least not in this playthrough. I just wanted to try some alternate methods. And if alternate gives me a suboptimal way of doing the same thing when honestly the return of a steam turbine setup is negligible in terms of where I'm at in this playthrough then I'm all for it. I understand what you're getting at though, thanks for the input! 

3 hours ago, JRup said:

The Crying Crab already had its 1st b-day, does it still work after all the patch shenanigans? I'm also curious if someone's done a crazy and tried a thermo regulator on this and had it work...

I just got done setting it up. Realized quickly 100 kg of ethanol and petroleum are not gonna cut it. 

So I just dumped 1000kg of ethanol in, along with a bypass for the AT. And for two cycles so far it's been strictly wobbling back and forth between a comfy 78 and 82 degrees Celsius. 

Don't know about longer term though. But here's to hoping it works

[TheMule]

16 hours ago, Lilscratchy said:

On the other hand I'm not really looking to be using bugs or glitches, at least not in this playthrough. I just wanted to try some alternate methods. And if alternate gives me a suboptimal way of doing the same thing when honestly the return of a steam turbine setup is negligible in terms of where I'm at in this playthrough then I'm all for it. I understand what you're getting at though, thanks for the input!

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. The threads on heat deleting bugs in steam turbines setup exposed some heat deletion mechnisms. Some may be bugs, or glitches, some are just weird mechanisms that, IMHO, are not different from SHC mismatches among phases of the same material. So you might be interested in those too.

17 hours ago, Lilscratchy said:

I just wanted to try some alternate methods. And if alternate gives me a suboptimal way of doing the same thing when honestly the return of a steam turbine setup is negligible in terms of where I'm at in this playthrough then I'm all for it.

Well these methods required specific builds. I don't think it makes sense to see them as generic alternate ways. I mean, they are probably more complicated than a steam turbine setup. So, unless they just fit in another build with no effort, I see them as more trouble than a turbine.

I find the crab amazing, and it's a no plastic solution I believe, but it's not as straightforward as a turbine, and getting 200kg of plastic it's not that hard, and you're going to need plastic anyway for other stuff.

So if I'm at a point in the game when I have to choose what to do, either build a crab or find a way to produce plastic and then a steam turbine, I choose plastic. And once I have plastic, I kinda loose interest for the crab. Unless I want to build it just because it's an amazing concept, of course.

[Lilscratchy]

On 8/28/2020 at 11:45 AM, TheMule said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. The threads on heat deleting bugs in steam turbines setup exposed some heat deletion mechnisms. Some may be bugs, or glitches, some are just weird mechanisms that, IMHO, are not different from SHC mismatches among phases of the same material. So you might be interested in those too.

 

Ah I see, I thought you were specifically pointing to threads regarding exploits rather that just utilizing wacky mechanics. Then again, in a game like oni wacky mechanics and exploits have a really blurred line between them in my opinion. 

 

On 8/28/2020 at 11:45 AM, TheMule said:

 

Well these methods required specific builds. I don't think it makes sense to see them as generic alternate ways. I mean, they are probably more complicated than a steam turbine setup. So, unless they just fit in another build with no effort, I see them as more trouble than a turbine.

 

True, some may be more tedious than a turbine set up. No doubt about that. However in talking about the crab I found the crab way less tedious to set up and much less of a lengthy chore in some ways. And you're right in the sense that the crab is not as straightforward. But once you get the jist of it it's actually incredibly easy, which is why I so far like it as much a turbine setup. I mostly like it because like you said it's a cool concept and something new and different. And I have the room to play around with it. I've struck gold on water sources and have had to bottleneck a cool steam vent in order to prevent my water basin from overflowing. So takin the time to cool down the water with a crab cooler is a perfect way to experiment, that will have use in the future.

But thanks alot! I'll definitely take a look at some threads on best deletion in steam turbines and such, pretty curious what I can find.