Maxwell update suggestion.

[SteamMonkey]

Maxwells shadows being... let's call em simple, would be my primary issue with the character. He's mildly annoying to play and controlling the shadows / working around how they operate is the primary issue. The following are my suggestions. I'm specifically not including numbers like how much sanity things should cost, etc, because the balance is up to the devs and I wouldn't presume to know better than them. 

First, make it so Maxwell can only summon 2 shadows and they come out basically unarmed. Adjust the recipe accordingly. 

Second, the shadows will have no 'function' by default. however, they will behave somewhat like tamed pigs in that they will assist maxwell when he does things. Chop a tree, they start punching the tree. Pick a rock, they start punching the rock (I know pigs don't do that, but it's a perk of shadows). The punching of trees and rocks should count for about half of the progress using a normal tool would. The same assist comes with enemies, if Maxwell attacks, they assist and punch with low damage. If Maxwell gets attacked, they support. 

Third, the shadows can be 'equipped'. If you hand them an axe they can no longer pick rocks or fight, if you hand them a pick, no more trees or fighting, a spear, no more trees or rocks. If you give them a spear they gain some HP and HP regen. (Bonus, if you can give them hats and the effects work for them). Additionally, you can change the type of shadow by giving them another tool or unequip them by clicking on them with the Codex (See next item).

Fourth, make the Codex equipable and give it a right click and left click function. Left click on an enemy and any unequipped or spear equipped shadows will attack that enemy, left click on a rock/tree and unequipped or appropriately equipped shadows will go harvest that object. Right click on a location and the shadows will go and stand there until another action is triggered (maxwell clicks, harvests, attacks/is attacked), Right click on a shadow itself and it will clear any equipment on them or if they are unequipped already, dismiss them and refund X amount of materials used to summon them. 

The 4th option there gives Maxwell the ability to really control his shadows. You can pull them out of a fight by right clicking a location to move them and essentially put them in a passive state while you retreat and it also gives you the ability to camp them if you need to run around and do things without them getting in the way. Additionally you can now use them in a more targeted way. It will be somewhat annoying to not be able to just stand in a copse of trees and let em go to town because you'll have to either chop or click trees with the book , but that's the trade off for more control. 

Other suggestions that may be OP but I figure are worth offering: 
If you give a shadow a Golden tool they mine at 1.X speed (increased in a way that makes sense).
Giving them better weapons, like dark swords, etc, would increase their damage more than a spear. 
Maxwell can 'swap' with a shadow, as in, move a shadow to a location then maybe left click with the codex on them to swap places (this one is big time wishful thinking but hey... shoot for the stars). 

Shadows should be able to fight nightmare creatures. Let's face it, they're not going to be any good against giants for the most part and I assume maxwell will continue to be squishy post update, so he's still going to be at a bit of a disadvantage when played solo. 

Anyway, thems my suggestions. Thoughts, comments? 


 

[LasseJ]

2) I like the idea of having shadows behave like pigs - punching trees, etc. Since they are shadows, this would be fitting, as they would be mimicing your behavior. It would also stop them from chopping down marble trees and statues, when you don't want them to.  

3) I like this. However, once you have comitted to a type of shadow (giving them an axe, fx.), I think you should not be able to change it again. Otherwise, the shadows would become too easy to produce.  

4) I think giving control over the shadows would be a bit too OP. As is, Maxwell is a pretty balanced, and giving this kind of control would diminish his downsides too much. I get that you would trade away the ability to just let shadows "go to town", but i still feel the control would be too good. Maybe control could be limited to being able to make spear-shadows passive or active? As everyone and their mother already have stated, the spear-shadows have no viable utilisation.  

Other: Making shadows able to fight nightmare creatures is a really cool idea, but I think it would be too OP. Maxwell is already awesome at farming nightmare fuel.  

 

[Brago-sama]

 Allowing them to fight nightmare creatures does make sense as they are nightmares themselves, however, unless they decide to either roid out the fighters or give them God tier A.I that allows them to kite properly, I doubt anything useful will come out of Maxwell's rework for the duelists.

 I do agree greater control over your shadows overall would be a welcome addition. I like the fact you incorporated the book as in game atm it's little more then a paperweight/crafting station. I always was a little disappointed when they removed the cool summoning animation from singleplayer.

[FeagleSnorf]

44 minutes ago, MrLJensen said:

2) I like the idea of having shadows behave like pigs - punching trees, etc. Since they are shadows, this would be fitting, as they would be mimicing your behavior. It would also stop them from chopping down marble trees and statues, when you don't want them to.  

3) I like this. However, once you have comitted to a type of shadow (giving them an axe, fx.), I think you should not be able to change it again. Otherwise, the shadows would become too easy to produce.  

4) I think giving control over the shadows would be a bit too OP. As is, Maxwell is a pretty balanced, and giving this kind of control would diminish his downsides too much. I get that you would trade away the ability to just let shadows "go to town", but i still feel the control would be too good. Maybe control could be limited to being able to make spear-shadows passive or active? As everyone and their mother already have stated, the spear-shadows have no viable utilisation.  

Other: Making shadows able to fight nightmare creatures is a really cool idea, but I think it would be too OP. Maxwell is already awesome at farming nightmare fuel.  

 

Where’s the 1)?!?

[SteamMonkey]

7 hours ago, MrLJensen said:

3) I like this. However, once you have comitted to a type of shadow (giving them an axe, fx.), I think you should not be able to change it again. Otherwise, the shadows would become too easy to produce.  

4) I think giving control over the shadows would be a bit too OP. As is, Maxwell is a pretty balanced, and giving this kind of control would diminish his downsides too much. I get that you would trade away the ability to just let shadows "go to town", but i still feel the control would be too good. Maybe control could be limited to being able to make spear-shadows passive or active? As everyone and their mother already have stated, the spear-shadows have no viable utilisation.  

Other: Making shadows able to fight nightmare creatures is a really cool idea, but I think it would be too OP. Maxwell is already awesome at farming nightmare fuel.  

 

Re:3, The cost is why I have it locked to a max of 2 shadows. Chances are you'll be changing them out somewhat frequently so you'll use tools to do so making the cost of changing them, using the tool. 

Re:4, How would having control be OP? Following your lead with harvesting vs using the book for directing them to harvest, it'd be more efficient to have them follow your lead most of hte time because you need to go to where they are to pick up the drops anyway. In combat, it just enables you to basically make them passive or send them in to fight without taking a swing. The same basic thing could be accomplished with a boomerang on the offensive side and we have no method of making them passive currently so the only "bonus" would be adding the ability to make them passive and the ability to make them sit and do nothing. I'm legitimately not understanding how it would be OP to have some shadow control. 

[LasseJ]

8 hours ago, FeagleSnorf said:

Where’s the 1)?!?

I was referencing the OP's points  

2 hours ago, SteamMonkey said:

Re:3, The cost is why I have it locked to a max of 2 shadows. Chances are you'll be changing them out somewhat frequently so you'll use tools to do so making the cost of changing them, using the tool. 

Re:4, How would having control be OP? Following your lead with harvesting vs using the book for directing them to harvest, it'd be more efficient to have them follow your lead most of hte time because you need to go to where they are to pick up the drops anyway. In combat, it just enables you to basically make them passive or send them in to fight without taking a swing. The same basic thing could be accomplished with a boomerang on the offensive side and we have no method of making them passive currently so the only "bonus" would be adding the ability to make them passive and the ability to make them sit and do nothing. I'm legitimately not understanding how it would be OP to have some shadow control. 

ReRe3: So the cost of producing shadows is basically shifted from nightmare fuel to twigs and flint, right? Nightmare fuel is more valuable, so I still think it would be too "cheap" to be able to change a, for an example, shadow-logger to a shadow-fighter using only material for a new tool. If not locking the function of the shadow after giving it a tool, I would  prefer being able to change the shadow using a tool and 1 nightmare fuel, which still would be cheaper than making an entirely new shadow. Fair point with capping at two shadows, but I still feel the cost would be too low.   

ReRe4: Ah, apologies, I must have misunderstood - we're on the same page        

[Dr. Safety]

I disagree with everything but number 4 (which I think is absolutely brilliant). Implementing the "open ended" shadows would be just like single player, which wasn't really too useful. As for equipping shadows with tools and armor, I only slightly disagree with. The point of the shadows is to be expendable, and easy to crank out, however if you are willing to take the risk of beefing up your puppets, I don't see a problem with it. Also limiting Maxwell's shadows to only two makes sense with the previously mentioned balance changes, however two seems a bit low. That why Maxwell's title is the Puppet Master.

However, playing off of that title makes number four absolutely brilliant. Everyone always wanted his shadows to be controllable (or at least able to toggle whether they are passive or active). That description has to be the most unique and interesting concept. I absolutely love it.

Honestly if it were up to me, I think Maxwell's balance changes should be add more types of puppets, and the entirety of number 4 (changing it to not cater to the other mentioned ideas) Maybe just a left click function where clicking on trees makes loggers chop, clicking on rocks makes miners mine, clicking on berry bushes, grass tufts, graves, etc. makes the digger dig, and clicking on enemies makes duelist attack. Then if you Ctrl + left click on the puppets you attack them and get all of your resources back, minus the tool.

[SteamMonkey]

7 hours ago, MrLJensen said:

ReRe3: So the cost of producing shadows is basically shifted from nightmare fuel to twigs and flint, right? Nightmare fuel is more valuable, so I still think it would be too "cheap" to be able to change a, for an example, shadow-logger to a shadow-fighter using only material for a new tool. If not locking the function of the shadow after giving it a tool, I would  prefer being able to change the shadow using a tool and 1 nightmare fuel, which still would be cheaper than making an entirely new shadow. Fair point with capping at two shadows, but I still feel the cost would be too low.

Possible adjustment: instead of clicking on the puppet with the book: An equipped puppet can't accept another tool and to strip the puppet of a tool you feed him a nightmare fuel which sets them to unequipped. 

12 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

I disagree with everything but number 4 (which I think is absolutely brilliant). Implementing the "open ended" shadows would be just like single player, which wasn't really too useful. As for equipping shadows with tools and armor, I only slightly disagree with. The point of the shadows is to be expendable, and easy to crank out, however if you are willing to take the risk of beefing up your puppets, I don't see a problem with it. Also limiting Maxwell's shadows to only two makes sense with the previously mentioned balance changes, however two seems a bit low. That why Maxwell's title is the Puppet Master.

However, playing off of that title makes number four absolutely brilliant. Everyone always wanted his shadows to be controllable (or at least able to toggle whether they are passive or active). That description has to be the most unique and interesting concept. I absolutely love it.

Honestly if it were up to me, I think Maxwell's balance changes should be add more types of puppets, and the entirety of number 4 (changing it to not cater to the other mentioned ideas) Maybe just a left click function where clicking on trees makes loggers chop, clicking on rocks makes miners mine, clicking on berry bushes, grass tufts, graves, etc. makes the digger dig, and clicking on enemies makes duelist attack. Then if you Ctrl + left click on the puppets you attack them and get all of your resources back, minus the tool.

so you prefer a more disposable larger quantity of shadows. I gotta say, it's definitely not what I think would balance out well. A puppet master usually has A puppet maybe 2 if they're marionettes with relatively simple armature.  

 

[Dr. Safety]

8 minutes ago, SteamMonkey said:

so you prefer a more disposable larger quantity of shadows. I gotta say, it's definitely not what I think would balance out well. A puppet master usually has A puppet maybe 2 if they're marionettes with relatively simple armature.  

A puppeteer has one or two puppets. Usually puppet masters have stages full of puppets. That why when someone tricks a bunch of people (more than two) to turn on each other for one's own benefit, they are referred to as "playing puppet master".
Now that I am explaining that it makes a lot of sense given Maxwell pre-freedom when he was tricking all the survivors.

[zergologist]

Maybe two puppets, made with more nightmare fuel, and can be upgraded with gold,  could be the norm instead. The puppets automatically have tools of all types, automatically detect disease. and only help in what you're currently doing, (destroy all rocks in the area regardless, marble trees would only be mined at the 3rd stage of growth, same applies to trees, I.E., shadow clones get smarter

[SouthTom]

20 hours ago, SteamMonkey said:

First, make it so Maxwell can only summon 2 shadows and they come out basically unarmed. Adjust the recipe accordingly. 

Second, the shadows will have no 'function' by default. however, they will behave somewhat like tamed pigs in that they will assist maxwell when he does things. Chop a tree, they start punching the tree. Pick a rock, they start punching the rock (I know pigs don't do that, but it's a perk of shadows). The punching of trees and rocks should count for about half of the progress using a normal tool would. The same assist comes with enemies, if Maxwell attacks, they assist and punch with low damage. If Maxwell gets attacked, they support. 

Third, the shadows can be 'equipped'. If you hand them an axe they can no longer pick rocks or fight, if you hand them a pick, no more trees or fighting, a spear, no more trees or rocks. If you give them a spear they gain some HP and HP regen. (Bonus, if you can give them hats and the effects work for them). Additionally, you can change the type of shadow by giving them another tool or unequip them by clicking on them with the Codex (See next item).
 

A maximum of 2 shadows instead of 4? This is a huge nerf.  Even if you can control them it's really not close to being worth losing 2 potential puppets. You lose a lot of efficiency with only half the harvesters. Shadow diggers become useless. Sanity control also takes a hit since you cannot have a super low Max Sanity. You also cannot use the 2 duelists and 1 harvester trick to stay always insane and farm Nightmare Fuel.

One of the things that's nice about Maxwell is that you never need to use an axe or pickaxe, you let your puppets do it. You never need to carry around tools. You get more space in your inventory and you don't need to waste time chopping wood or mining. But what you're suggesting is the regular Don't Starve puppets, the one that won't do anything you're not already doing, so you still have to waste time and space with tools. That's tedious and unfun.

I don't see why you would need to give them new tools to change them. The system in place is already pretty convenient for switching up puppets. You force attack puppets you don't want anymore and you get refunded 1 Nightmare Fuel. So they should always cost you only 1 nm fuel and a tool to switch them.

Controlling them could be nice but do we really need to? What's wrong with them chopping every tree, every marble tree and every rock all the time? You shouldn't put your marble trees and your forest inside your base if you're carrying puppets all the time. If don't want them anymore you can dismiss them and bring them back later. I almost always keep as much puppets as I can since they stay active all the time and they're pretty cheap. Workers shouldn't die from anything else than your own fist. They always run away from everything dangerous and usually don't draw aggro first. The only times where they could die is from Treeguards that they spawned, hounds from the desert, rooks, Antlion, Bosses or Meteors and even then, all of these deaths are avoidable and kinda your own fault.

Duelists are more suicidal and maybe shouldn't attack tentacles but they only go by themselves after hostiles mobs. You should play around their weakness and they shouldn't be there to protect Maxwell from all harm. Used effectively in their current state they can be pretty good with a good number of mobs.

The Maxwell you're suggesting is close to what's already in regular DS and while I main Maxwell in Together I hate regular Maxwell. Wilba from Hamlet on the other hand has the 2 traits that fits my play-style and are shared with DST Maxwell : No need for tools and good Sanity control.    (pls Klei add Wilba to DST next)

There's a good reason Klei changed Maxwell for DST he's more fun to play that way.

[Brago-sama]

Maxwell could only ever make 3 shadows max, singleplayer a̶n̶d̶ ̶D̶S̶T̶

Edit: data correction 

[SouthTom]

15 minutes ago, Brago-sama said:

Maxwell could only ever make 3 shadows max, singleplayer and DST

You can have 4 harvesters at the same time. 

[Brago-sama]

11 minutes ago, SouthTom said:

You can have 4 harvesters at the same time. 

Huh, just checked on my Maxwell world. This whole time I could have been using him better. 

Thanks for the new knowledge 

[SteamMonkey]

9 hours ago, SouthTom said:

A maximum of 2 shadows instead of 4? This is a huge nerf.  Even if you can control them it's really not close to being worth losing 2 potential puppets. You lose a lot of efficiency with only half the harvesters. Shadow diggers become useless. Sanity control also takes a hit since you cannot have a super low Max Sanity. You also cannot use the 2 duelists and 1 harvester trick to stay always insane and farm Nightmare Fuel.

One of the things that's nice about Maxwell is that you never need to use an axe or pickaxe, you let your puppets do it. You never need to carry around tools. You get more space in your inventory and you don't need to waste time chopping wood or mining. But what you're suggesting is the regular Don't Starve puppets, the one that won't do anything you're not already doing, so you still have to waste time and space with tools. That's tedious and unfun.

I don't see why you would need to give them new tools to change them. The system in place is already pretty convenient for switching up puppets. You force attack puppets you don't want anymore and you get refunded 1 Nightmare Fuel. So they should always cost you only 1 nm fuel and a tool to switch them.

Controlling them could be nice but do we really need to? What's wrong with them chopping every tree, every marble tree and every rock all the time? You shouldn't put your marble trees and your forest inside your base if you're carrying puppets all the time. If don't want them anymore you can dismiss them and bring them back later. I almost always keep as much puppets as I can since they stay active all the time and they're pretty cheap. Workers shouldn't die from anything else than your own fist. They always run away from everything dangerous and usually don't draw aggro first. The only times where they could die is from Treeguards that they spawned, hounds from the desert, rooks, Antlion, Bosses or Meteors and even then, all of these deaths are avoidable and kinda your own fault.

Duelists are more suicidal and maybe shouldn't attack tentacles but they only go by themselves after hostiles mobs. You should play around their weakness and they shouldn't be there to protect Maxwell from all harm. Used effectively in their current state they can be pretty good with a good number of mobs.

The Maxwell you're suggesting is close to what's already in regular DS and while I main Maxwell in Together I hate regular Maxwell. Wilba from Hamlet on the other hand has the 2 traits that fits my play-style and are shared with DST Maxwell : No need for tools and good Sanity control.    (pls Klei add Wilba to DST next)

There's a good reason Klei changed Maxwell for DST he's more fun to play that way.

It's a huge change, I wouldn't call it a nerf. You might lose 2 puppets but you gain a lot more control and he's supposed to be controlling them, he's the puppet master not the cat herder. In my suggestion, shadow diggers go away. And yes, you would lose teh ability to stay permanently insane but I also didn't put sanity numbers in my suggestion for a reason. If klei feels like perma-insanity is a thing Maxwell should be able to do with just his shadows, they can make it so if you equip both puppets with spears they lower your sanity enough to put you in that state. 

You didn't read the entire thing. There are 2 ways to make your shadows act in my suggestion, one is they follow what you do, the other is through control with the book. You can easily use the book and not carry tools with you. Or, you can be more efficient in harvesting and use a tool and help them. Or, you can use the book to fire em off, follow behind picking things up and using a shovel to dig up stumps, etc. The theme is control. 

If you'd followed along with the discussion, you'd see that the costs and mechanics stay the same here... the mechanic changes slightly but the overall clicks and costs stay the same. 

I feel like yes, we do need to control the puppets, that's the point of the suggestion. 

[SouthTom]

3 hours ago, SteamMonkey said:

It's a huge change, I wouldn't call it a nerf. You might lose 2 puppets but you gain a lot more control and he's supposed to be controlling them, he's the puppet master not the cat herder.

I feel like yes, we do need to control the puppets, that's the point of the suggestion. 

Control in exchange for speed and efficiency is a net negative in my eyes.

We already have control by dismissing puppets we no longer want or need.

Why do you need more control? I can understand for the Duelists but I see absolutely no problems with the behavior of the Harvesters.

[SteamMonkey]

12 hours ago, SouthTom said:

Control in exchange for speed and efficiency is a net negative in my eyes.

We already have control by dismissing puppets we no longer want or need.

Why do you need more control? I can understand for the Duelists but I see absolutely no problems with the behavior of the Harvesters.

cutting down trees that aren't at full growth, digging up things you don't want dug up, mining everything in range.... 

[Sinister_Fang]

13 hours ago, SouthTom said:

Why do you need more control? I can understand for the Duelists but I see absolutely no problems with the behavior of the Harvesters.

Some people use trees and marble shrubs to decorate their base. The harvesters don't care about that and just destroy them anyway. Not to mention the loggers also go after twiggy trees when they're usually left off not being chopped down. I don't see how having more control is a bad thing.