Pipes and automated systems are frustrating because the rules are difficult to understand

[kerosene]

I'm trying to build relatively simple systems but keep failing because I cannot predict how the system I've built will behave because the rules that govern gas and liquid flow in pipes are difficult to understand and never really explained.

The hidden functionality of the liquid/gas bridge is also bad. These should be only liquid bridges, not a way to control how liquid flows. There should be a special building for that.

I think this is one reason I have a tendency to restart the game because once I get to the stage where these kind of systems make sense the game becomes frustrating.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nightinggale]

The flow rules are really simple. Gas/liquid dots are generated at output ports and they flow to input ports. If you want more than 2 ports in a pipe, you need to look at the flow. Imagine the game draws a line from each output port to each input port. The pipe flow will break if a pipe have two lines going in opposite directions. Forks and joining works fine. It's only pipes where the flow goes in both directions, which will break.

1 hour ago, kerosene said:

The hidden functionality of the liquid/gas bridge is also bad. These should be only liquid bridges, not a way to control how liquid flows. There should be a special building for that.

There is a special building or that. It's called a "bridge". That's how bridges work and we are stuck with that for better or worse. Changing it now would break all savegames and all guides online wouldn't match the game mechanics. It would be a mess and upset most players.

1 hour ago, kerosene said:

I think this is one reason I have a tendency to restart the game because once I get to the stage where these kind of systems make sense the game becomes frustrating.

I agree with you on that one. It's very frustrating when you can't get the game mechanics to behave. However the solution should only be better explanation, not changing anything in the game. You are essentially asking for a tutorial or some other guided tour of the pipe system. I agree the introduction could be better. You are far from the first saying "why isn't my pipe system working?", which indicate the learning curve isn't as it should be.

[kerosene]

The system is not all simple. There are arbitrary rules that are not explained and are not intuitive.

I have pipes with packets of water like this: -o-o-o- that flows from some output to the left to some input to the right. If I disconnect some pipes the liquid will stop flowing. If I rebuild some pipe system, I often end up with pipes that have liquid that refuses to flow as I would expect it to. I still don't understand the rules and therefore everytime I rebuild some pipe system I end up with a mess.

If a pipe branches, 50% of the liquid will go in one branch, 50% in the other. But if a pipe branches on an input port, 100% will go into the input. Unless the input port is full, then 100% will go in the other branch.

The flow rate through a pipe that has a temp sensor + liqui shutoff is half the normal rate. It doesn't say that anywhere. I discover this only when I build the system and see it's not working as intended.

A big problem is that the tooltips don't describe what the pieces I'm building actually do.

 

[Sasza22]

24 minutes ago, Nightinggale said:

There is a special building or that. It's called a "bridge".

The thing is it`s not only the bridge. All buildings that have an input and an output work the same way. The bridge is just the sipliest of them all and it doesn`t store anything inside itself so it`s the perfect one to use it for flow control. We could use valves as well, which would probably make more sense.

The thing hard to understand is no pressure mechanic and packets pausing on pipe forks. Whenever 3 or 4 pipes connect it is always better to use a bridge there so the flow makes more sense. I wish there was a way around it. It would make the systems much more readable as well.

3 minutes ago, kerosene said:

The flow rate through a pipe that has a temp sensor + liqui shutoff is half the normal rate. It doesn't say that anywhere. I discover this only I build the system and see it's not working as intended.

It actually depends on how you construct it. Just like you explain here.

4 minutes ago, kerosene said:

If a pipe branches, 50% of the liquid will go in one branch, 50% in the other. But if a pipe branches on an input port, 100% will go into the input. Unless the input port is full, then 100% will go in the other branch.

If you pull the pipe past the sutoff it will take 100% through when active and let 100% the other way when inactive.

[Nightinggale]

2 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

The thing is it`s not only the bridge. All buildings that have an input and an output work the same way. The bridge is just the sipliest of them all and it doesn`t store anything inside itself so it`s the perfect one to use it for flow control. We could use valves as well, which would probably make more sense.

That's another argument for keeping bridges as they are: they work just like any other input/output building. I get what you mean with valves, but valves are in the building layer while each type of bridge has a layer only used for such bridges. Since the game can only handle one item in each layer, it means bridges can be behind buildings while valves can't.

9 minutes ago, kerosene said:

I have pipes with packets of water like this: -o-o-o- that flows from some output to the left to some input to the right. If I disconnect some pipes the liquid will stop flowing. If I rebuild some pipe system, I often end up with pipes that have liquid that refuses to flow as I would expect it to. I still don't understand the rules and therefore everytime I rebuild some pipe system I end up with a mess.

This is a string indication that you either didn't have both input and output on the same pipe or you have multiple and created bi-directional flow. If the liquid can go both up and down, it goes say up. Then if it can go both up and down, it can try to go down. That's how bi-directional flows break down completely.

Klei should add a StatusItem for "broken pipe flow" and add it to each pipe, which has more than one direction of flow. Players should never use it and it's a broken pipe system just like "output port not connected" is a broken pipe system, which prevents buildings from operating.

[kerosene]

14 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

If you pull the pipe past the sutoff it will take 100% through when active and let 100% the other way when inactive.

Not sure what you're saying. I'm talking about flow rate. In my game, I have a pipe that branches on a tile with a liquid temperature sensor. Both branches lead to a liquid shutoff. It's a splitting system. Hot water goes in one branch, cold water into the other.

The flow through this pipe system is only 5 kg water per sec instead of 10 kg as expected. Because there is some obscure rule that makes it so. I would like to fix it if possible, but if I don't know what exactly is limiting the flow rate I cannot do so. I not sure if it can be fixed at all. That is frustrating.

[Nightinggale]

8 minutes ago, kerosene said:

The flow through this pipe system is only 5 kg water per sec instead of 10 kg as expected. Because there is some obscure rule that makes it so.

Perhaps the "obscure rule" is a pump with a 5 kg capacity. There is no rule saying machines has to fill the pipe. Sometimes you can place multiple machines and then merge the outputs onto a single pipe without capacity issues, like CO2 exhaust from natural gas generators.

[SharraShimada]

If the liquid/gas stops flowing in a segment of the pipe, this can be caused by 2 things: either you have no "pumper". Content will never flow on its own (not even by gravity) It has to be pumped by something. 

 

And yes, if you branch on an input port, it only splits if the input port is full. Its like a bucket, with a hose as input, with another bucket behind. The first bucket has to be full, before the second one will get anything. Thats not even slightly hard to understand. 

 

When it comes to bridges and branches, there are some difficulties even some of us "old" players run into. Lets see what they give us as release patch.

[Sasza22]

6 hours ago, kerosene said:

Not sure what you're saying. I'm talking about flow rate. In my game, I have a pipe that branches on a tile with a liquid temperature sensor. Both branches lead to a liquid shutoff. It's a splitting system. Hot water goes in one branch, cold water into the other.

I see the problem. You got a branch. Branches are bad since they split the flow to 50%. You can make the system with no branches. Just lead the pipe to the shutoff and past it to the second one (the second one won`t be needed btw). If the sensor opens the shutoff it will take all the flow unless the pipe behind backs up. If it does or if the sensor closes it it will let all the water flow further to the second shutoff.

[ONIfreak]

It take some time to get used to use pipes in ONI but it is doable (i came to the point where i have no bigger problems building most of the systems and do not mess up pipes) but i fully agree that it could be easier. I already suggested this while back - grey arrows on pipes placed automatically when system calculate route - it will show direction of flow, it is already in game (system already check that - this would just require few graphics and some condition on check to make change pipes) it would help troubleshooting problems with any flow.