Nerf Abyssalite

[Flydo]

On 22/03/2018 at 2:47 PM, Gurgel said:

There is a better insulator than Abyssalite: Vacuum. It is tedious though as you need 3 tiles thickness (2 walls 1 vacuum layer) and need to pump it out. Making the game more tedious is probably a bad idea.

Yeah a vaccum fan like me

for me i do it by making a 3*3 tile and just before construct the last corner i destruct the one of the middle to made a vaccum place and i progress like this (but i loose some materials in the construction)

it's more logic to do vaccum with a pump but i don't like the idea to have a pump inside my vaccum wall....

Oooooh god, i just got a good idea, i know now how to made this without loosing materials and don't let a pump inside.

Juste need to make the 2 walls 1 vaccum layer and made automatic door in a side of the wall with automation button, build a pump close to the door and made tile around the pump to close it, now you just have to open the door, made the vaccum inside, close the door, deconstruct all the "pump room to get back the material and close for ever the automatic door.

Yeah i never need to loose material and do micro management

Edit: I try it just now in debug mode but you can do it in real game, my idea look like this :

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1347318412

 

[Kasuha]

8 hours ago, docteurmaboul83 said:

Edit: I try it just now in debug mode but you can do it in real game, my idea look like this :

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1347318412

You can put the door one more tile to the right. Then after you deconstruct the pump, lock the door, and build the remaining two tiles of the wall behind the door through corners above and below the door. Then you can remove the door, too.

Personally I don't like making vacuum with pumps if not necessary. It takes a long time and lots of power, I prefer giving up on a little sandstone over that.

[Kazumiya]

Resuming the **** : Abyssalite tile > insulated abyssalite > insulated tile > tile ! So , abyssalite need to be changed =P

[Flydo]

1 hour ago, Kasuha said:

You can put the door one more tile to the right. Then after you deconstruct the pump, lock the door, and build the remaining two tiles of the wall behind the door through corners above and below the door. Then you can remove the door, too.

Personally I don't like making vacuum with pumps if not necessary. It takes a long time and lots of power, I prefer giving up on a little sandstone over that.

I agree that made a perfect vaccuum with pumps take a lot of energy, but i made really big vaccum wall, all my base are surrounding by this wall and this take a lot of micro management to do. Plus if you need to change your design you sometimes need to remade the entire wall (and it's just a detail but made vaccum by deconstruct by the corner, it's like cheating or bug abuse to me).

Thank for the idea to put the door one more tile to the right, it's really smart and could be usefull if i don't want to see a door lock in my wall

I look for a design that can allow to my dupe to go inside the airlockroom with an exosuit, waiting for the airlock to vaccum and after can work in a room full of vaccum, but for now if a door is close by automation dupe can't have an order to after this door or stay on the button next to it waiting for the door to open.

I like the idea of thermal isolated room/system, i need this for some idea i work on (in real game) for example i want to store chlorine in liquid form to take less tile (gas form 20 Kg/tile, liquid form 1000 kg), i have for now a polluted water treatment system that close enough and with autosweeper they feed automaticly my hatch. If you have some complex system like this please share it

[Kasuha]

31 minutes ago, docteurmaboul83 said:

I look for a design that can allow to my dupe to go inside the airlockroom with an exosuit, waiting for the airlock to vaccum and after can work in a room full of vaccum, but for now if a door is close by automation dupe can't have an order to after this door or stay on the button next to it waiting for the door to open.

The easiest solution here is a waterlock. If the duplicant is already in exosuit, he'll not mind passing through a bit of water. And there can be vacuum behind that waterlock and nothing will disrupt it.

[Flydo]

13 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

The easiest solution here is a waterlock. If the duplicant is already in exosuit, he'll not mind passing through a bit of water. And there can be vacuum behind that waterlock and nothing will disrupt it.

Yes a double waterlock with vaccum between could work in some solution and need less energy to use it, but some point disturbing me (especially the third ):

1) It's less physical realistic (cause water going steam then ice if you put it in vaccum)

2) it's less looking cool system (sorry it's just a point that you can discuss and not so important one)

3) The more important point, i will probably use petroleum to this waterlock (waste of petroleum i think but it work) to have the best temperature choice, but if you look precisely what liquid you have and their freezing point, this waterlock will stop working at -57°C, i need to look chlorine liquid properties but chlorine evaporate next to -48°C and freezing next to -100°C (allow me more use) but if the water lock heating up i will be a disaster in some case

But thank for the idea, it will work in many other place and think about it cause waterlock if free energy use: no pump use after you made vaccum, no need of gas filter or gas pipe

Thank

[Gurgel]

12 hours ago, docteurmaboul83 said:

Edit: I try it just now in debug mode but you can do it in real game, my idea look like this :

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1347318412

 

Yes, that would work fine. But I really do not see this adding much or anything at all to the game. If people really have an issue with Abyssalite, just make it "Vaccumite". I also saw that the new encyclopedia (I think) lists "Aerogel" as material, which also could be a valid replacement.

[Kasuha]

42 minutes ago, docteurmaboul83 said:

3) The more important point, i will probably use petroleum to this waterlock (waste of petroleum i think but it work) to have the best temperature choice, but if you look precisely what liquid you have and their freezing point, this waterlock will stop working at -57°C

You may consider building a tepidizer in the waterlock and heating it up if it gets close to freezing temperature. Also you can put a descent behind the waterlock, the warm pocket at the entry will propagates very little downwards to he rest of the room. Something like this:

According to my experience, that tepidizer may not ever get used since the waterlock will be also heated by temperature outside. 

[Flydo]

Nice design i will try some waterlock in some case cause it really interesting in some case but i will keep my vaccum airlock for other one, cause i could made it from the beggining

 

I not try the tepidizer at the moment, i will experiment soon with it

3 hours ago, Kasuha said:

According to my experience, that tepidizer may not ever get used since the waterlock will be also heated by temperature outside. 

Your misanderstood what i talk about, i will try again to work with very low temperature something like - 200 °C something like that to make once again liquid oxygen, heating up the room through a liquid i don't want to freeze is a non sense

I will probably try a waterlock on the hot side and a normal door on the other side with a pump to make vaccum between pu it's pretty like the same than my double door system (and my door system could be use to go up trough an horizontal vaccum wall, need this too)

Thank for your sharing

[Gabrysiek]

They can change that the abyssalite is an isolator instead of being buildable material. Then you can't build anything from abyssalite, but it's needed for building isolated pipes and tiles.

[Flydo]

5 hours ago, Gabrysiek said:

They can change that the abyssalite is an isolator instead of being buildable material. Then you can't build anything from abyssalite, but it's needed for building isolated pipes and tiles.

It could be interesting so insulated tile, pipes while be really does the job of isolation. Example: If you build in igneous rock they not really isolate, just take more time to heat/cool

[KittenIsAGeek]

On 3/19/2018 at 12:31 AM, Kasuha said:

I made a little experiment and right at the moment, insulated tiles seem to be pretty much as good as abyssalite. Even in direct contact with magma at 1600 C, they don't change temperature at all.

  Reveal hidden contents

This is an experiment I made, building a standard tile and insulated tile chamber inside magma vein. All walls are made of obsidian with thermal conductivity 2 (but higher melting point than the temperature of magma). Then I set temperatures of both chambers to 200 K using paint tool. Temperature of the insulated wall did not even budge yet, although the other chamber is pretty much at temperature of the magma already.

So - using insulated tiles is not wrong or bad decision. It works as well as abyssalite, only eating more material (of which there is plenty around).

I didn't test insulated pipes but I think it may be the same case.

If devs did this intentionally, then abyssalite is no longer such ultimate material. It's there just to insulate individual biomes from each other.

The abyssalite digging perk is set fine in my opinion. Highly trained duplicants have certain decor and food quality requirements and while decor is easy to meet at the moment, food would be a problem without ability to dig abyssalite and get inside other biomes.

I feel like there is something wrong in your testing scenario.  I have a map on cycle 200 or so where I used insulating tiles around a cold water tank.  The water is at a temperature of around 10c, and the cold is slowly bleeding into my base through the insulating tiles.

Insulated tiles are great most of the time, but sometimes you just need abysallite.  

[Kasuha]

1 minute ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I feel like there is something wrong in your testing scenario.  I have a map on cycle 200 or so where I used insulating tiles around a cold water tank.  The water is at a temperature of around 10c, and the cold is slowly bleeding into my base through the insulating tiles.

Insulated tiles are great most of the time, but sometimes you just need abysallite.  

Further research revealed that insulated tiles don't exchange heat with solid or liquid tiles, but do exchange heat with gas tiles. So if the gas above your pool is cold, that's where the coldness may be coming from.

If you do your own research and post results, you'll be more than welcome.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Just now, Kasuha said:

Further research revealed that insulated tiles don't exchange heat with solid or liquid tiles, but do exchange heat with gas tiles. So if the gas above your pool is cold, that's where the coldness may be coming from.

If you do your own research and post results, you'll be more than welcome.

Well, the gas is below the pool, as its a travel way.  Anyway, I almost always wall off my base with insulating tiles to help keep the heat from swamps and toxic biomes from invading.  Consistently I've found that there is some heat that leaks into my base.  Its slow, and its manageable.  However, there are times where insulating tiles are simply not enough. 

For example, lets say I want to build a boiler to run a steam turbine.  The boiler room needs to be insulated very well, or I will lose power because of heat loss.  In these cases, I prefer to use abyssalite because of its superior insulating properties.  Or, perhaps, I want to make liquid oxygen.  Again, insulating tiles work, but it requires way too much power to maintain the super cold temperatures.

I like the option of abyssalite.  I like having the choice to use it, or not, as I deem necessary.  

[Flydo]

8 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

  Or, perhaps, I want to make liquid oxygen.

 

So you will realy need to learn to make vaccum Wall cause abysallite with this thermal conductivity at 0.00001 is good for normal usage but when you work at very low temperature like -200°C and the room next to you'r abysalitte room at 20 °C, the heat rate exchange become 0.0022 for each tile, it's look nothing like this but it's a huge lost of energy for absolutely nothing

[Jigsawn]

I take back what I said before about removing abysallite. Or at least if it gets removed there needs to be a strong insulator in its place.

I've reached magma for the first time and been playing with steam turbines. But the extreme temperatures of both turbine steam and oil close to the magma is way too hot for normal insulated pipes. It was only by building abysallite insulated pipes that I could get anything working. When temps get to 100-200 degrees other insulated pipes and bridges just break all the time.

So I think you still need a powerful insulating material in the game but maybe only found down in the oil layer. Otherwise some of the freedom of experimenting around oil/magma will be even more limited (it's already limited thanks to metal machines overheating).

 

[Kazumiya]

Can someone post a picture of a Void-Insulated base ? I'm curious =) 

[Flydo]

48 minutes ago, Kazumiya said:

Can someone post a picture of a Void-Insulated base ? I'm curious =) 

you can see the wall with two tiles and it's vaccum inside, i made vaccum inside the door each time the dupe open it.

So the only thermal bridge i have it's the abyssalite insulated tile of the door (i can break it by deconstructing two tile but it's made more time to make the vaccum)

You can see sandstone inside the vaccum wall, it's because i made it only with the dupe desconstructing by corner. I just made a new method, which cost energy but less time and micro management,  to made this kind of wall, i just begin to try it

 

[Kazumiya]

Ah thx! It looks nice, I wanna try that once.

[Kazumiya]

By the way... Does abyssalite pipe is better than insulated pipe then ? So that makes them useless x)

[Flydo]

Very usefull to avoid totally heat transfer. I will prepare a tutorial to made it

13 minutes ago, Kazumiya said:

By the way... Does abyssalite pipe is better than insulated pipe then ? So that makes them useless x)

A way better

[Rotintin]

I just did a run without abys to 500 days. It's fine to live without it in terms of tile, but abys pipes make liquid o2 transportation possible. I'd be sad if that wasn't a thing anymore.