School me on liquifying gases - without videos

[Lifegrow]

3 minutes ago, SusanMcO said:

I got serious about trying it yesterday, and was very frustrated.  I did a room of hydrogen, with hydrogen in mazing pipes around, then a total of three gas regulators, and in an abutting room (both abyssalyte walls) with then the cooled hydrogen mazing through a room of oxygen (that had a liquid pump set up ahead of time for any liquid O2), with wolframite plug bridges - and I could not get the O2 cold enough.  I finally added in some hydrogen which helped, but I still ended up liquifying my hydrogen in the gas regulator pipes before I made any LOX.  My O2 actually got to -300+ without liquifying in the setup.

What does it sound like I'm doing wrong?! 

Hmmm, a lot to ask here - without pics/save files it's really hard to comment.

Firstly you only need 1 gas regulator in theory, multiple will just speed up the initial priming time. Only exception is if you have a massive cooling setup, i.e. you're gaining more heat than a single regulator can remove. 

Liquefying your hydrogen in the pipes means you've not got some sort of switch in place to re-route the hydrogen if it's say, below -240, to avoid it cooling too far. Consider having a switch that toggles the thermo regulator off, and redirects the flow either with a bridge or a filter.

I know you've said you're not a fan of videos, however I did throw together a rough video a few weeks back showing a few different methods to create liquid O2 - all of which have switches/piping to avoid over-cooling.

full vid : 

 

Skip to 4:43 to see a simple regulator bypass. 

Good luck!

[SusanMcO]

Yeah, it isn't a written description, so I can't understand it.  I typically do not have access to sound.  Plus I process better with written directions. The videos end up being Charlie Brown's teacher to me. 

This is the setup.  It wasn't getting cold enough without the extra regulators.  as it was, i waited nearly 100 cycles to get close.

This has a lot of extra pipes as I was taking stuff in and out initially and was lazy about cleaning up my pipes

Here you can see the temps - the hydrogen was nearly -350, the O2 was -150

[Lifegrow]

First observations :

Don't run your thermo regulators in-line, as it removes any accuracy from cooling your hydrogen. For example, even if you had switches in place to divert gasses from your regulators, a cooling effect of -42 degrees Celsius is waaay too big of a change to allow for the precision you need to make liquid O2. Instead, split your radiators into multiple sections, and have each new smaller section connected to a single thermo regulater - again, all controlled by thermo switches.

Your hydrogen piping is a mess of t-junctions and re-merging packets, which means that getting a consistent temperature running through your pipes will be near impossible, so try to streamline your pipes so that you have a one-way flow of gas from regulator output to input, with a bridge to bypass the regulator.

Pics don't show pipe materials. Make sure radiator pipes inside the room are granite, and any running through walls or externally are abyssalite.

That is all the help I can offer. I explain in great detail how the principles of this sort of build work in the vid I posted, but if you can't/won't watch it, then you're on your own i'm afraid.

**Little edit** One final thing I'd say is this - the build you're attempting is now somewhat superceded by the new breed of aqua tuner liquid O2 makers. My current design uses oil as the cooling agent, and wolframite doors to transfer the temperature. No fine tuning, just a single switch to control things. Much easier to build, much easier to maintain, and far less need for precision switches. Again... It's in the vid I linked...

[SusanMcO]

I might end up trying the oil cooling method.  Yes, the materials are all correct - we discussed them earlier in the thread.  The T junctions you might be seeing are not necessarily there - those could be scattered pipe pieces I didn't bother to deconstruct as I was toying with layout.  But not having the regulators in line is a very helpful concept. 

And correct, won't watch the videos, as the first post and topic subject says.  Just not something I can do. 

[Sevio]

I set up a basic pipe radiator liquefier to demonstrate:

Overlays in the spoiler:

Spoiler

It's a 6 wide by 14 tall room with only the bare necessities in it to reduce the startup time as much as possible. If you have it, use wolframite for the metal components inside the room and igneous rock for the gas pipes, as they have the lowest heat capacity. The shape isn't too important but you need about 80 tiles of gas pipes to give you a good margin to avoid pipe breakage, a thermo switch to shut off the regulator when it gets too cold inside and an atmo switch to prevent the system from running when pressure is low - if pressure is low the pipes cannot absorb enough heat from the room and the thermo regulator will eventually cause the pipe to break.

Switch settings:

• Atmo: Above 300g
• Thermo: Above -190 C
• Hydro: Above 50 kg

The hydrogen pipe on the left that bridges onto the radiator loop was used to fill the radiator loop. A bypass bridge is at the Thermo Regulator to allow the hydrogen to keep circulating while it's off. I also put it in a small layer of water, which allows you to run this thing in your base without having to worry about active cooling. But you should put it somewhere in your base where the heat can travel up easily, or under something that's being actively cooled or a water tank.

Spoiler

[manu_x32]

51 minutes ago, Sevio said:

If you have it, use wolframite for the metal components inside the room and igneous rock for the gas pipes, as they have the lowest heat capacity.

  Reveal hidden contents

I thought that granite was always best for the gas pipes of a cooling radiator, because of the thermal conductivity.  Forgive my ignorance on this, but what is the role of heat capacity, and why is it more important than thermal conductivity?  In other threads I thought people always recommended granite.  If igneous rock is better, than I guess, using that, or obsidian, or sedimentary rock, is also good since they have the same exact specs.

[Sevio]

7 minutes ago, manu_x32 said:

I thought that granite was always best for the gas pipes of a cooling radiator, because of the thermal conductivity.  Forgive my ignorance on this, but what is the role of heat capacity, and why is it more important than thermal conductivity?  In other threads I thought people always recommended granite.  If igneous rock is better, than I guess, using that, or obsidian, or sedimentary rock, is also good since they have the same exact specs.

My recommendation for igneous rock is in the interest of minimizing the total heat capacity of the room to let you get it down to temperature quicker. Heat transfer between two objects is limited by the lowest thermal conductivity of the two and all of the gases have a lower thermal conductivity than Igneous Rock. So any pipe that's not abyssalite should transfer at the same rate. For example wolframite liquid pipes have been shown to have minimal difference in transfer rate compared to granite liquid pipes. IIRC a high heat capacity does help to transfer more heat between different tiles when you are using a pipe bridge or a wire bridge but the pipes only transfer heat with the tile they're occupying.

[manu_x32]

33 minutes ago, Sevio said:

My recommendation for igneous rock is in the interest of minimizing the total heat capacity of the room to let you get it down to temperature quicker. Heat transfer between two objects is limited by the lowest thermal conductivity of the two and all of the gases have a lower thermal conductivity than Igneous Rock. So any pipe that's not abyssalite should transfer at the same rate. For example wolframite liquid pipes have been shown to have minimal difference in transfer rate compared to granite liquid pipes. IIRC a high heat capacity does help to transfer more heat between different tiles when you are using a pipe bridge or a wire bridge but the pipes only transfer heat with the tile they're occupying.

ok so in other words, this helps making sure that the gas pipes don't get heated too much by the hot po2, in order to reduce the time it will take to cool the room, right?

My science knowledge is a bit limited. That's the definition of heat capacity from google:

The heat capacity of a defined system is the amount of heat (usually expressed in calories, kilocalories, or joules) needed to raise the system's temperature by one degree (usually expressed in Celsius or Kelvin). It is expressed in units of thermal energy per degree temperature

It says, the amount of heat to raise the system temp by 1 degree.  But does heat capacity also apply for the opposite?  The amount of cold needed to cool the system temp by 1 degree?

Thanks!

[Sevio]

3 minutes ago, manu_x32 said:

ok so in other words, this helps making sure that the gas pipes don't get heated too much by the hot po2, in order to reduce the time it will take to cool the room, right?

It's more about the fact that the gas pipes themselves have to be cooled down to temperature before the room can start doing its job. Each one is a significant amount of mass that has to be cooled down along with the hydrogen in the pipes during the startup period. Once everything is cold, it doesn't really matter whether it's granite or igneous rock but it makes a difference for the time it takes to cool the room down.

2 minutes ago, manu_x32 said:

It says, the amount of heat to raise the system temp by 1 degree.  But does heat capacity also apply for the opposite?  The amount of cold needed to cool the system temp by 1 degree?

It goes both ways so yes.

[manu_x32]

6 minutes ago, Sevio said:

It's more about the fact that the gas pipes themselves have to be cooled down to temperature before the room can start doing its job. Each one is a significant amount of mass that has to be cooled down along with the hydrogen in the pipes during the startup period. Once everything is cold, it doesn't really matter whether it's granite or igneous rock but it makes a difference for the time it takes to cool the room down.

It goes both ways so yes.

Ok thanks, I might make some tests to compare pipes types priming time...

With a setup similar to yours, with granite pipes, it took about 10 cycles to cool the room and start getting liquid O2. If I put 2 thermo regulators in line just for the priming time, it takes about 4 cycles.

@SusanMcO  in case it wasn't clear in the posts above, you can see what a thermo regulator bypass bridge looks like below.  This is how you create a closed-loop system, to keep hydrogen flowing when regulators are off.  In a real game setup I would obviously do something to make sure the thermo regulator does not overheat.

[Jofe]

Kinda gonna hijack this topic, but I must ask, whats the point of liquefying gases in the game?

[manu_x32]

6 minutes ago, Jofe said:

Kinda gonna hijack this topic, but I must ask, whats the point of liquefying gases in the game?

Liquid O2 can be used to  cool down things and/or to get rid of polluted oxygen and convert it to clean oxygen by reheating the liquid.  If you produce enough, it can become your sole oxygen supplier, no need for electrolyzers anymore.

[Sevio]

You can create as much polluted oxygen as you want if you use Outhouses (that require cleaning but aren't being cleaned) to spawn Morbs.

[manu_x32]

6 minutes ago, Sevio said:

You can create as much polluted oxygen as you want if you use Outhouses (that require cleaning but aren't being cleaned) to spawn Morbs.

One question about that.  I seem to have problems consistently spawning 3 morbs out of outhouses.  Do we need to use the outhouse fully (15 visits I think) before locking it so that dupes don't clean it, or can we just have them us it 1 time and then lock it?

[SusanMcO]

So to understand clearly - you guys are liquifying the polluted O2, not clean O2? 

Also, why are you using insulated pipes - I learned that insulation isn't needed if you are using abyssalite.

Also, if you are planning to use you LOX, you should put the pump inside the cooling storage box first, right?

[Sevio]

1 minute ago, SusanMcO said:

So to understand clearly - you guys are liquifying the polluted O2, not clean O2? 

Yeah, the main reason to build a liquefier is to have a hands-off system that converts polluted O2 into liquid O2, which can then be evaporated into clean O2. For example, dropping the liquid O2 on top of the thermo regulator in my example is a great way to deal with the heat that it makes and instantly evaporates the clean O2 again for use in your base.

Just now, SusanMcO said:

Also, why are you using insulated pipes - I learned that insulation isn't needed if you are using abyssalite.

Apologies, I forgot to mention they are in my demonstrator only to indicate abyssalite pipes. Regular abyssalite pipes will do just as well, of course.

[SusanMcO]

Perfect, thanks!

[Lifegrow]

17 hours ago, manu_x32 said:

One question about that.  I seem to have problems consistently spawning 3 morbs out of outhouses.  Do we need to use the outhouse fully (15 visits I think) before locking it so that dupes don't clean it, or can we just have them us it 1 time and then lock it?

full 15 visits so it requires cleaning, but don't disable it - lock it away. It will release one morb then stop. If you do a save/reload, another will spawn - repeat until it's spawned 3 total, then clean it and repeat  

18 hours ago, Sevio said:

It's more about the fact that the gas pipes themselves have to be cooled down to temperature before the room can start doing its job. Each one is a significant amount of mass that has to be cooled down along with the hydrogen in the pipes during the startup period. Once everything is cold, it doesn't really matter whether it's granite or igneous rock but it makes a difference for the time it takes to cool the room down.

Worrying about the amount of time it takes to initially cool is where I find a lot of people fall down on effective LOX builds. Filling the room with additional mass, i.e. heavy watt wires, doors, bridges, empty liquid piping - whatever you can, will really help keep your room stable.

Yes, it will take a heck of a long time to cool - however once it's cooled it will stay far more consistent than just a bare bones gas-pipe radiator.

I've reached the point where I simply cant produce enough PO2 for my LOX builds - and I've got both a morb farm and a huge evaporation radiator - still can't produce enough. Point being, chances are you won't have a constant supply of PO2 forever, so let it build up whilst your room is cooling, then process a load of it at speed, then let your room cool again whilst it accumulates, and repeat. 

Honestly, gas filled radiator designs are now pretty redundant - when a smaller, more efficient, more reliable, higher throughput version can be built with an aquatuner that will never go wrong, without relying on small margins for error. 

[Sevio]

1 hour ago, Lifegrow said:

Worrying about the amount of time it takes to initially cool is where I find a lot of people fall down on effective LOX builds. Filling the room with additional mass, i.e. heavy watt wires, doors, bridges, empty liquid piping - whatever you can, will really help keep your room stable.

Yes, it will take a heck of a long time to cool - however once it's cooled it will stay far more consistent than just a bare bones gas-pipe radiator.

I was expecting this response but IMHO making it react slower by adding extra mass inside the room is entirely unnecessary. The demonstrator I built with igneous rock and minimum heat capacity is perfectly stable with both intermittent and maximum throughput polluted oxygen feed. A slower reaction time can always be arranged if desired by increasing the hydro switch threshold.

The argument I thought of for adding extra mass inside a liquefier before was when I was experimenting with designs that didn't have an Atmo Switch. Having lots of tiles in such a design would be a way to allow the radiator to absorb heat even when PO2 pressure is low. But that seemed kind of pointless when an atmo switch does the trick just fine.

1 hour ago, Lifegrow said:

Honestly, gas filled radiator designs are now pretty redundant - when a smaller, more efficient, more reliable, higher throughput version can be built with an aquatuner that will never go wrong, without relying on small margins for error. 

I agree that gas radiator designs are now superseded in effectiveness by Aquatuner designs, thanks to Crude Oil's strange low temperature properties. The bar for new players is a bit higher than the simple gas radiator I demonstrated above though, since you first need to get crude oil from the hot oil biome and the wiring gets a bit more complex.

[Lifegrow]

6 minutes ago, Sevio said:

I was expecting this response but IMHO making it react slower by adding extra mass inside the room is entirely unnecessary. The demonstrator I built with igneous rock and minimum heat capacity is perfectly stable with both intermittent and maximum throughput polluted oxygen feed. A slower reaction time can always be arranged if desired by increasing the hydro switch threshold.

The argument I thought of for adding extra mass inside a liquefier before was when I was experimenting with designs that didn't have an Atmo Switch. Having lots of tiles in such a design would be a way to allow the radiator to absorb heat even when PO2 pressure is low. But that seemed kind of pointless when an atmo switch does the trick just fine.

It's nothing to do with reacting slower, it's focused around lowering temperature spiking. That's the variable that so often seems to be ignored. The time it takes for priming a system is somewhat irrelevant.

Would you rather have a car that starts first time, but only drives for 20 miles before disintegrating, or a car that needs a few minutes to warm up, but lasts you 20 years  

Stability is everything when it comes to closed systems like LOX makers, having to break them open when an issue becomes apparent undoes all of that "reduced priming time" that you seem to avoid  Build them right first time and you'll never need to look at them again.

9 minutes ago, Sevio said:

The bar for new players is a bit higher than the simple gas radiator I demonstrated above though, since you first need to get crude oil from the hot oil biome and the wiring gets a bit more complex.

Wut? Oil is regularly found in 70degree areas now, with the earliest pockets being within ~40 tiles south of printing pod.  

Complex wiring? Come on now, we've discussed this before you and I  One wire and 2 switches isn't exactly tricky - it's one less switch than your radiator design - and actually accurate....

(ignore the normal wires, the entire system is that one heavy watt circuit)

 

[manu_x32]

3 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

full 15 visits so it requires cleaning, but don't disable it - lock it away. It will release one morb then stop. If you do a save/reload, another will spawn - repeat until it's spawned 3 total, then clean it and repeat  

ah thanks, that's explains it!  I thought I read that it would spawn 3 at once, and then you had to save/load to be able to make it spawn more after cleaning it. 

3 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

Worrying about the amount of time it takes to initially cool is where I find a lot of people fall down on effective LOX builds. Filling the room with additional mass, i.e. heavy watt wires, doors, bridges, empty liquid piping - whatever you can, will really help keep your room stable.

Yes, it will take a heck of a long time to cool - however once it's cooled it will stay far more consistent than just a bare bones gas-pipe radiator.

I've reached the point where I simply cant produce enough PO2 for my LOX builds - and I've got both a morb farm and a huge evaporation radiator - still can't produce enough. Point being, chances are you won't have a constant supply of PO2 forever, so let it build up whilst your room is cooling, then process a load of it at speed, then let your room cool again whilst it accumulates, and repeat. 

Honestly, gas filled radiator designs are now pretty redundant - when a smaller, more efficient, more reliable, higher throughput version can be built with an aquatuner that will never go wrong, without relying on small margins for error. 

Yeah I totally agree. Adding additional mass makes the room more stable, temp changes slower, and you can crunch more po2 with it.

What I like doing is building a simple version without additional mass, and I use it to prime my big mass LOX.

[Sevio]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the value of having extra mass in a liquefier. There can be value in having extra stuff inside, but IMHO only if it serves the purpose of increasing the heat conduction area, where that is necessary for the desired throughput.

In any case there's plenty of asteroids to go around for everyone to do the thing they prefer and any newbies visiting this thread can try both methods and see which one they're happy with.

[manu_x32]

1 minute ago, Sevio said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on the value of having extra mass in a liquefier. There can be value in having extra stuff inside, but IMHO only if it serves the purpose of increasing the heat conduction area, where that is necessary for the desired throughput.

In any case there's plenty of asteroids to go around for everyone to do the thing they prefer and any newbies visiting this thread can try both methods and see which one they're happy with.

I wouldn't had much mass to an hydrogen radiator version, but to a crude oil/aquatuner version, I find that it helps keeping the oil from heating too quickly, so the aquatuner runs less often. And when liquid 02 or cold crude oil is in contact with showers or doors, it just makes them instantly very cold, which really helps crunching po2.  But those are more advanced setups I agree. The simple ones are perfect for early game and beginners.

[Sevio]

8 minutes ago, manu_x32 said:

And when liquid 02 or cold crude oil is in contact with showers or doors, it just makes them instantly very cold, which really helps crunching po2.

The way you describe it, it sounds like you're actually using the showers for their heat conduction properties (huge area, allows for quickly chilling a lot of PO2) rather than avoiding temperature spikes. This is useful in aquatuner based liquefiers because they can be throughput limited by the heat conduction area available between the oil/LOX and the PO2.

[manu_x32]

2 minutes ago, Sevio said:

The way you describe it, it sounds like you're actually using the showers for their heat conduction properties (huge area, allows for quickly chilling a lot of PO2) rather than avoiding temperature spikes. This is useful in aquatuner based liquefiers because they can be throughput limited by the heat conduction area available between the oil/LOX and the PO2.

Yeah exactly, the whole shower keeps the same temp spanning over 8 tiles, huge!  So if it's always soaking in liquid 02 like below, it's always very cold. This is my old version, before switching to oil update, but oil was way OP in that version (debug mode only). This thing was able to crunch 4 full time gas pumps of po2 with 1 aquatuner very rarely running (second was just for priming phase).  But I'm revisiting the designs since oil is less OP now, and aquatuner keeps running almost full time with that design.  

Sorry for the vid @SusanMcO, but it's very short, and has no voice over.