Immunity System (Gripe and Question)

[fireman71]

[The information}

Update came out and I played a few rounds resulting in all my dupes dying miserably until I figured out I would just lock them in the base until they got healed up and their immunity restored. While they were healing I would go off and do other things around the house as I only have 2 to 3 hours of game play per night.

Tonight I conducted an experiment as it seemed base construction and exploration were taking a lot more cycles than normal.

At Cycle 391 I had 31% on the immunity Systems at the top of the screen. It was almost dupe bedtime so I just locked them all in the base and decided to wait and see how long it took them to get back to 100%. 

At the start of cycle 398 back to 100%. So 7 complete cycles pretty much lost with nothing being done in dupe world.

[The question]

Is there anyway I can speed this up or is there something I am doing wrong?

[The gripe] 

I have better things to do then just kill time while the dupes heal. Yes I can get down to the micromanaging level of just locking up the dupes with the low immune system and I have tried that approach. It is tedious and mind numbingly boring to go around and set permissions on every door over and over. My bases normally have 30 to 35 dupes and are of the larger variety with several doors. This current base has only 11 dupes and only 2 doors to get into the outside world and it is too tedious and dull to manage at even this level.Good Lord forbid someone with 50 dupes and and 5 or 6 doorways like some of the youtubers used to run prior to this current update.

[x4550]

Yeah, it kind of seems like, once they get exposed, it's just a waiting game to see if they're going to fight off the infection.  And then if they get the disease, it's another waiting game to let them heal.  It's like it's not a video game - it's just a video.  

I used to be opposed to the idea of pressure suits, but not anymore - I think that would be the perfect way to explore swamp biomes.  

I've heard you can use chlorine to irradiate huge amounts of germs - provided you can find enough.  I have a huge chunk of the central map explored out to the edges with ne'er a geyser in sight - neither steam, nor gas, nor chlorine!  D:

[Reaniel]

The thing I find about slimelung is that the germs in the slimes, while seem scary, isn't really the biggest problem.  Yes, there are a lot of slimelung germs in those blocks of slime, but they're not the main cause of what's making your dupes ill.  It is what happened AFTER you dug them out and leave them on the ground, where they continue to emit germy polluted oxygen, that gradually makes an entire biome deadly for your dupes.

What I do is to prepare a chlorine room or cold room (with storages built in there) before venturing into a slime biome, and make sure to pick up every single slime I've dug up and put them in the disinfect room.  Also, make sure to trap pufts in isolated rooms so that they won't spread more germs around.

[brummbar7]

3 hours ago, fireman71 said:

Is there anyway I can speed this up or is there something I am doing wrong?

No, this is just what we've been given for now.  Prevention or waiting.  There is no treatment to help recover immune percentage unfortunately.   It seems reasonable to assume that at some point those balm lilies we saw in several livestreams will reappear along with the apothecary station, to make medicine that gives an immune system recovery bonus.  Or something along those lines.   It's just a question of when, I think.

[fireman71]

Thanks for all the replies.  It just seems like I spend most of my time twiddling my thumbs waiting for immunity to recovery.

I have done the cold room storage with so-so results. it works. It's just a bit slow. It used to be that the most time consuming thing was digging out the areas. Now it seems that it is sitting around waiting for immunity to recover. Not a lot of fun.

I did find a Chlorine geyser and was trying to just flood everything with chlorine. It is amazing how much of an area those things can fill if you just open them up and let them flow.

Regardless, game time is over for tonight.

Thanks again.

[x4550]

3 hours ago, brummbar7 said:

It seems reasonable to assume that at some point those balm lilies we saw in several livestreams will reappear along with the apothecary station, to make medicine that gives an immune system recovery bonus. 

That sounds pretty good.  I could almost accept the current system if there was some countermeasure for a failing immune system.

[brummbar7]

4 hours ago, Stinktooth said:

That sounds pretty good.  I could almost accept the current system if there was some countermeasure for a failing immune system.

The problem is going to be balancing such a thing.   If they went with balm lily medicine, for instance, I forsee the problem being that they will make balm lilys too easy to farm (when we could farm them in closed testing they had only pressure and temperature requirements iirc, and were super-easy to farm), and people will just make giant balm lily farms, have their dupes constantly popping pills, and ignore the disease.  Unless maybe you can only have one pill active at a time and it only gives like, a 10% recovery bonus, which is good but can still be overwhelmed with enough germs. 

They could make pinchas fertilized with fertilizer, so they're sustainable, and balm lilys fertilized with phosphorus.  That way you have a limited window (albeit a very large one) in which to farm balm lilies.  But the plus side is, within that time window you could probably eradicate PO from the asteroid.

[BlazeNightash]

11 hours ago, fireman71 said:

[The information}

Update came out and I played a few rounds resulting in all my dupes dying miserably until I figured out I would just lock them in the base until they got healed up and their immunity restored. While they were healing I would go off and do other things around the house as I only have 2 to 3 hours of game play per night.

Tonight I conducted an experiment as it seemed base construction and exploration were taking a lot more cycles than normal.

At Cycle 391 I had 31% on the immunity Systems at the top of the screen. It was almost dupe bedtime so I just locked them all in the base and decided to wait and see how long it took them to get back to 100%. 

At the start of cycle 398 back to 100%. So 7 complete cycles pretty much lost with nothing being done in dupe world.

[The question]

Is there anyway I can speed this up or is there something I am doing wrong?

[The gripe] 

I have better things to do then just kill time while the dupes heal. Yes I can get down to the micromanaging level of just locking up the dupes with the low immune system and I have tried that approach. It is tedious and mind numbingly boring to go around and set permissions on every door over and over. My bases normally have 30 to 35 dupes and are of the larger variety with several doors. This current base has only 11 dupes and only 2 doors to get into the outside world and it is too tedious and dull to manage at even this level.Good Lord forbid someone with 50 dupes and and 5 or 6 doorways like some of the youtubers used to run prior to this current update.

You're complaining about something that's not intended to be done and also complaining about micro management in a game about colony management the game is intended to be played in such a way and also overreacting about sickness in the game as it is I rarely had dupes die of sickness and the ones that did I Cared less about since it's easy to get dupes at that point in the game as the portal recharges faster later on food poisoning is a joke to never had a dupe get it since it dies so easily in hot or cold areas it's like you would have to intentionally have your base at certain temps for it to even be a problem 

[x4550]

8 minutes ago, brummbar7 said:

The problem is going to be balancing such a thing.   If they went with balm lily medicine, for instance, I forsee the problem being that they will make balm lilys too easy to farm (when we could farm them in closed testing they had only pressure and temperature requirements iirc, and were super-easy to farm), and people will just make giant balm lily farms, have their dupes constantly popping pills, and ignore the disease.  Unless maybe you can only have one pill active at a time and it only gives like, a 10% recovery bonus, which is good but can still be overwhelmed with enough germs. 

They could make pinchas fertilized with fertilizer, so they're sustainable, and balm lilys fertilized with phosphorus.  That way you have a limited window (albeit a very large one) in which to farm balm lilies.  But the plus side is, within that time window you could probably eradicate PO from the asteroid.

I'm actually getting used to this meta (even without an immunity boost) - after having drastically reduced my expectations of gameplay pace.  I think if I hadn't played TU or AU, OU would be a much easier pill to swallow.

[brummbar7]

5 minutes ago, BlazeNightash said:

You're complaining about something that's not intended to be done and also complaining about micro management in a game about colony management the game is intended to be played in such a way

There's managing micro details, and then there's micromanagement.  The former is ok sometimes, the latter is rarely ok.   I've played and enjoyed dwarf fortress.  It don't think it gets more obtusely micro-detailed than that.  But micro-managing door permissions for sick bays, and disinfecting buildings that don't even matter (ladders, art) that constantly get re-infected, is naturally not going to be fun for the majority of people.  Klei was warned about both these things by the closed testers, and I think the closed testing group probably has a pretty high tolerance for micro-detail-management compared to the general gaming population.

[BlazeNightash]

10 minutes ago, brummbar7 said:

There's managing micro details, and then there's micromanagement.  The former is ok sometimes, the latter is rarely ok.   I've played and enjoyed dwarf fortress.  It don't think it gets more obtusely micro-detailed than that.  But micro-managing door permissions for sick bays, and disinfecting buildings that don't even matter (ladders, art) that constantly get re-infected, is naturally not going to be fun for the majority of people.  Klei was warned about both these things by the closed testers, and I think the closed testing group probably has a pretty high tolerance for micro-detail-management compared to the general gaming population.

That's because people are trying so hard to focus avoiding sickeness with a lot of dupes if they get sick they get sick slime lung lasts around 4-6 cycles once they have it depending on how often they get treated with that many dupes you should start having dedicated roles like a nurse who just treats other dupes and sweeps and mops not every dupe doing everything 

 

job on assignment tab exists for a reason micro managing is only hard if you make it hard 

[Kasuha]

It seems to me a viable approach might be to avoid slime biomes and morbs until I find some wheezeworts (-> cooling, electrolysis for oxygen plus extra power). It could be possible to live on algae mined in starting biome and in phosphorite biomes during that time. The extra power can then allow building oxygen liquefier to get rid of polluted oxygen and airborne slimelung and tackling slime biomes in a safe way. That way the expansion may be still quite fast and safe.

[BlueLance]

You could always just stop the one dupe from going about and let the rest do their own thing? I usually only get one dupe infected accidently with something and after removing the source (Usually a pile of slime) I just toss them back in, if they get slimelung its a quick trip to the hospital, but most times they just get to a balance and then get better,

Kasuha I watched a stream where life planted wheezewarts next to slime and left them there, it killed off large areas over time and he could merrily mine the slime without any side effects.

[brummbar7]

27 minutes ago, BlazeNightash said:

job on assignment tab exists for a reason micro managing is only hard if you make it hard 

I didn't say it was hard.  I said it's not fun.  Those are very different things.   In the same way that bowling and having to go set the pins up yourself by hand is not fun, while bowling with a pin setter is fun.  Keep the fun part of the task (which is also the hard part) - hitting the pins with the ball - get rid of the tedious (but not difficult) part.  Keep the fun part of dupes being sick - setting up a working clinic node and watching it operate correctly - and get rid of the tedious part of managing dupe door access.  The rewarding part of this game is allowing players to set up systems and watch them work correctly.  Tedious repetitive micromanaging (even if simple) is not rewarding.

[BlazeNightash]

24 minutes ago, brummbar7 said:

I didn't say it was hard.  I said it's not fun.  Those are very different things.   In the same way that bowling and having to go set the pins up yourself by hand is not fun, while bowling with a pin setter is fun.  Keep the fun part of the task (which is also the hard part) - hitting the pins with the ball - get rid of the tedious (but not difficult) part.  Keep the fun part of dupes being sick - setting up a working clinic node and watching it operate correctly - and get rid of the tedious part of managing dupe door access.  The rewarding part of this game is allowing players to set up systems and watch them work correctly.  Tedious repetitive micromanaging (even if simple) is not rewarding.

You got my point and you didn't get it. You basically said what I was saying Set up dedicated medics and if dupes get sick they get sick. This guy is doing some cheap door micro management to make sure they never get sick and yea that's going to he unfun because you're doing it to yourself. Preventing something that's suppose to eventually happen isn't part of the game design 

[brummbar7]

42 minutes ago, BlazeNightash said:

You got my point and you didn't get it. You basically said what I was saying Set up dedicated medics and if dupes get sick they get sick. This guy is doing some cheap door micro management to make sure they never get sick and yea that's going to he unfun because you're doing it to yourself. Preventing something that's suppose to eventually happen isn't part of the game design 

No, I don't care about doctors.  They can do what they want, aiding is one short task, definitely not worthy of having a dedicated dupe.  if you have so many dupes sick you need a dedicated doctor, you're doing something wrong.   We're talking about different door management.   I was referring to having a door into your clinic that locks already-sick dupes into the clinic, so they don't wander around the base (since apparently having food and restrooms right next to their medbed does not guarantee they're use said facilities).  I want to keep the sick dupes within the confines of the clinic area.  Now the door access to slime biomes is a different thing, I do that too but that's not as big a deal because there's other thing for dupes to do in base while they're confined to it, not to mention hot biomes.   If I forget to change biome door permissions they're not going to be idling.  If I locked a dupe in the clinic but don't notice that they just recovered, he's stuck idling in the clinic, and more importantly wasting precious immune-to-everything time, when I could have him body-slamming the slime biome.  Also this was suggested and supported by multiple people in closed testing.  Which makes it more irksome that it was not included. 

Biome door permissions are not fun either, but neither immune stat nor percent based permissions were suggested in closed testing (that I recall) so it's understandable that they weren't included on the update.  But they are a good suggestion.   Using door permissions in general to limit biome access and allow dupes to recover is definitely not a "cheap" tactic.  It's a natural solution to the system we were given.  If they wanted us to have guaranteed sick dupes they should have kept the old random PO based system.  That was guaranteed, but as long as that was the understood meta, it was acceptable (except that the system was incomplete, and had no remedies).   But now they have provided us a system that we can observe and influence, but given us a poor set of tools to influence it.  This is bound to cause frustration, and rightly so.

I could certainly understand if 'biometric locks' was a upper tier tech.  That would be reasonable and provide research impetus.  Some less-than-fun stuff can be useful as a contrast to improvements later.  This makes the later tech more satisfying (vs it being the starting and only tech) and provides a sense of progression.  But micromanaging door access with no end in sight is going to be not-fun, form the start and forever.    But unless they're going to make 2 brand new doors (manual airlocks don't need a biometric upgrade), they may have to re-write their building code to allow building add-ons.  Idk.

[Mjello]

13 hours ago, fireman71 said:

[The question]

Is there anyway I can speed this up or is there something I am doing wrong?

You can clean the environment you are entering for polluted oxygen pocket by pocket. And bring in clean oxygen before letting all your dupes free in an area. That minimizes the spread of slime lung.

Before you could expand like crazy without consequence. Now you have to expand your base carefully and think ahead.

I like to play with just 10-20 dupes.

Polluted oxygen can be cleaned by cooling it into liquid oxygen. Saves a lot of sand.

[BlazeNightash]

47 minutes ago, brummbar7 said:

No, I don't care about doctors.  They can do what they want, aiding is one short task, definitely not worthy of having a dedicated dupe.  if you have so many dupes sick you need a dedicated doctor, you're doing something wrong.   We're talking about different door management.   I was referring to having a door into your clinic that locks already-sick dupes into the clinic, so they don't wander around the base (since apparently having food and restrooms right next to their medbed does not guarantee they're use said facilities).  I want to keep the sick dupes within the confines of the clinic area.  Now the door access to slime biomes is a different thing, I do that too but that's not as big a deal because there's other thing for dupes to do in base while they're confined to it, not to mention hot biomes.   If I forget to change biome door permissions they're not going to be idling.  If I locked a dupe in the clinic but don't notice that they just recovered, he's stuck idling in the clinic, and more importantly wasting precious immune-to-everything time, when I could have him body-slamming the slime biome.  Also this was suggested and supported by multiple people in closed testing.  Which makes it more irksome that it was not included. 

Biome door permissions are not fun either, but neither immune stat nor percent based permissions were suggested in closed testing (that I recall) so it's understandable that they weren't included on the update.  But they are a good suggestion.   Using door permissions in general to limit biome access and allow dupes to recover is definitely not a "cheap" tactic.  It's a natural solution to the system we were given.  If they wanted us to have guaranteed sick dupes they should have kept the old random PO based system.  That was guaranteed, but as long as that was the understood meta, it was acceptable (except that the system was incomplete, and had no remedies).   But now they have provided us a system that we can observe and influence, but given us a poor set of tools to influence it.  This is bound to cause frustration, and rightly so.

I could certainly understand if 'biometric locks' was a upper tier tech.  That would be reasonable and provide research impetus.  Some less-than-fun stuff can be useful as a contrast to improvements later.  This makes the later tech more satisfying (vs it being the starting and only tech) and provides a sense of progression.  But micromanaging door access with no end in sight is going to be not-fun, form the start and forever.    But unless they're going to make 2 brand new doors (manual airlocks don't need a biometric upgrade), they may have to re-write their building code to allow building add-ons.  Idk.

I'm mean they could add a funcuntion to doors if dupe isn't sick he can't leave but enter or something of the sort and having one dupe as a doctor when you have a lot isn't a big deal. I'm mostly sick of the people complaining about every new update being to hard when making the game "unplayable"