MarkusReese Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Hi, been trying to push the mechanics, seeing how stable I can make a setup. I have a layout I like, but something odd that is running counter to my intuition. Namely the way the gases seem to work as i develop more. Looking, it seems that heat does a fair bit to create cycles, but the one that has me aggrivated is my gas density continuing to drop and need continual resupply. I first noticed this when my plants kept stopping growing. It is to the point now I have an air pump pushing air right from an oxygen generator to my garden area. Image is my latest base earlier in play. Spoiler So this is when things started going odd. Notice the oxygen isn't really flowing its way up even with two algae generators going. The gardens are not growing due to lack of air pressure. Where is it going? It was stable to where I only needed the one pulsing once in a while and the two terrariums more than keep up. So I do work to try and fix the issue. Spoiler So added one more duplicate and sealed off most walls. There is also the bottom air pump to put air up top and to the gardens to get some air pressure there. It has gotten wierder all the same. That layer of stench moving across the base for a reason I cannot fathom. The base flooring is set up to almost function like an hvac or convection system. It works well early on and smaller, but this larger size it goes wierd. Adding the just one more colonist and I am having to run electrolysis. just to keep the air pressure stable. If I shut it off, the air pressure collapses in the base in short order and that is even if the pumps are not running. Even with the air pumps running they cannot keep pressure constant in the two bottom grow rooms. So essentially, where is my air going? Any ideas on why it is continually getting worse? Experimenting and bug hunting over the past couple days, I cannot find what really causes dramatic sources of loss. Expansion of base i can understand, it is creating vacuums, Is it just part of the program to keep the difficulty up? A closed system impossible? I am aware water is a finite resource, but I would like to get this air issue stabilized so I can focus less on the pure hunt for water and more on exploring the mechanics and testing the systems. Any feedback or advice on ways to stabilize air is greatly appreciated, or is it pretty much just a case of drink water as fast as I can. As it stands i probably will need to have two electrolysis running full time for eight colonists if I want to have it stablized. Even then, not sure what is happening with the strip of contaminated oxygen there. Feedback and clarifications on how the mechanics work is greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Two things: 1. Meal lice is an animal not a plant. It consumes oxygen. Leave them in a sealed room and it will eventually become a vacuum. It will take a long time as growth becomes slower and slower as air pressure drops but it will eventually become a vacuum. So don't have more meal lice than you need to feed your dupes or you'll quickly run into problems. That also means you can very effectively use the placement of the meal lice as free air pump because you know it consumes oxygen that means oxygen rushes toward the plants. Slowly sure, but group a few together and it's very effective. That also explains your problems with horizontal or diagonal airflow. You have almost all meal lice on one side so air flows towards them. 2. You're expanding outward, right? In that case remember to seal off your base with double airlocks or you'll loose air pressure simply due to the air has to fill a larger and larger area. (EDIT: Just read it again and you mention this yourself. Just remember the double airlock system). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkusReese Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 Oooh.... OOOOOOH! I never made that connection about the meal lice!!!!! That is pretty big news for me. Nice detail of depth. I know see the value of deep fried muck bars which was a side question in my brain. Definitely changes my approach to build. It is unfortunate it creates a vacuum. But that is in a sense the air being stored by them as fats, sugars, etc. This stored gas does not get released elsewhere in the cycle does it? In nature this would be as part of the CO2 and H2O. Water is out of equation as neither use it really outside of meal production. I wouldnt mind if meal lice had heavy CO2 output to sort of balance it more. Worthy of its own discussion and more than I can chat on a phone right now Thanks for the info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindwerks Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 So if meal lice consume oxygen, if you store them in a room full of CO2 you should be OK right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micongo Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 33 minutes ago, Mindwerks said: So if meal lice consume oxygen, if you store them in a room full of CO2 you should be OK right? no *edit: ahhh i misunderstood the question.....lol ummmm is meal lice after harvesting alive still?? i never thought of it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilda Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Hu, that's a new one for me too. And its kinda weird because they happily live in contaminated oxygen or CO2... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darwithe Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 11 minutes ago, MarkusReese said: Oooh.... OOOOOOH! I never made that connection about the meal lice!!!!! That is pretty big news for me. Nice detail of depth. I know see the value of deep fried muck bars which was a side question in my brain. Definitely changes my approach to build. It is unfortunate it creates a vacuum. But that is in a sense the air being stored by them as fats, sugars, etc. This stored gas does not get released elsewhere in the cycle does it? In nature this would be as part of the CO2 and H2O. Water is out of equation as neither use it really outside of meal production. I wouldnt mind if meal lice had heavy CO2 output to sort of balance it more. Worthy of its own discussion and more than I can chat on a phone right now Thanks for the info! I can't say I've ever noticed that about Meal Lice, but I have noticed when you check a dupes info that they exhale about 50 times less CO2 than they inhale O2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkusReese Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, Mindwerks said: So if meal lice consume oxygen, if you store them in a room full of CO2 you should be OK right? Does it consume in storage? If so, will absolutely set up a vacuum locker... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilda Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Well, I would be interested in Saturnus source, cause just checking ingame it is designed as plant, with no inputs/outputsl. I will seta a couple of rooms to see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PudgeBalloon Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Your biggest source of pressure dropping is likely to just be your Dupes, as mentioned by Darwithe above. They consume far more gas than they exhale and once you get a sizeable number of them this really starts to make a difference. My first game which I just accepted every Dupe offered I had similar issues once I hit 9-10 which only got worse as more Dupes arrived, my second colony has been limited to 8 Dupes and is doing much better. There are a few things you could try in your setup which may help though. - I believe most (if not all) non-tiled squares are permeable to gases so you need your main colony walled in and the "caves" only accessible via double sealed airlocks. - I see you have ladders leading out of the screenshot at both the top and bottom, are the areas they lead to completely sealed off by an exterior wall? Gases tend to either flow up and down, CO2 at the bottom, then Cl2, O2, contaminated O2 and finally H2, so not sealing these off could cause an issue. - I may be wrong, but I believe that gases can't mix meaning that each "square" can only contain one type of gas. This means if you have a some gases which are of low volume (such as CO2 or H2) "mixed" with your O2, you will get one square showing high O2 volume, next to a square reading a low H2/CO2 volume confusing the game as to the actual pressure of the area (O2 square - high pressure, H2/CO2 square - low pressure), maybe an average pressure across multiple squares could solve this? There is a way to avoid this by building producers of these lower quantity gases in the areas the gases naturally move towards, CO2 producers (such as your Coal Generator) at the bottom of the base and H2 sources (Water Electrolysis) at the top. Finally, the contaminated O2 you have running through your base is probably from the Bio Distillers and the slime they use being transported. Hope these points/ideas are of use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Vilda said: Well, I would be interested in Saturnus source, cause just checking ingame it is designed as plant, with no inputs/outputsl. I will seta a couple of rooms to see what happens. I don't have a screenshot at the moment but you can just test it yourself. Make a small room. Plant a Meal Lice. Seal the room off and note the beginning air pressure. Check back every few cycles. If you made the room exactly large enough for the plant and nothing else, and you start with 1 atm pressure, you'll by the end of the plants life cycle (3 spawnings) the room will be listed as vacuum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilda Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, Saturnus said: I don't have a screenshot at the moment but you can just test it yourself. Make a small room. Plant a Meal Lice. Seal the room off and note the beginning air pressure. Check back every few cycles. If you made the room exactly large enough for the plant and nothing else, and you start with 1 atm pressure, you'll by the end of the plants life cycle (3 spawnings) the room will be listed as vacuum. I tested it for last few hours - about 35 cycles and not a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Hmmm... maybe I should test it again. I'm not the only one that has noticed it as others have posted the same with screenshots on the forum. And it does perfectly explain the movement of gases in practically all my builds. I'll check again this weekend when I'm back at my regular PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilda Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Well, I am running the test again, this time with more control of conditions (it kept stop growing due heat previously). Because there seems to be a disappearing toxic oxygen at the bottom of my base where lots of planters are and it does not seem to be by dropping to pits down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DockLazy Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Air conditioning systems seem to lose 30% of the gas pumped through them, see here. From my own attempts at aircon it seem to empty my base of oxygen pretty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayland Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 According to some other threads that have tested this pretty scientifically, meal lice will live in and consume ANY gas, not just oxygen. So you can use them to eat up CO2. But since, as was mentioned already above, dupes barely produce any CO2 compared to the O2 they consume, this doesn't actually help very much. Blossom-Wood, on the other hand, has been confirmed to consume nothing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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