Beefalo player linking

[ittybritty]

Beefalo raising is a hard but rewarding task, but nearly unusable in public and dedicated servers. Pets (while they don't really DO anything as of yet) vanish with their player when they log off. Beefalos do not have a player, domesticity of the beefalo works for all players. While this allows players to have a group of ridable beefs to share in cooperative play, it can also leave a small group of players with a large amount of responsibility when players log off. This can also leave beefalos completely unattended in dedicated servers, letting them undomesticate over time (without the copious use of salt licks, and even then they don't always work) wander off to get killed/undomesticated, or stolen by unscrupulous players for food or the hard work put into it by someone else. 

Either way, this ruins hours of hard work through nearly unpreventable or completely unpreventable events.

I suggest some method of linking a beefalo to a player be implemented.

One idea would be "Branding" the beefalo. Adding in a branding item allowing players to link their beef to theirselves so that they vanish with them upon logging off. The branding link would, of course, go away upon undomestication.

"Branding" Pros: Gets the job done and still allows community riding beefalos. Reflects a real life practice of branding one's live stock to prevent theft and confusion between other people's live stock (Basically the animal version of writing your name on it).

"Branding" Cons: Allows the permanent theft of community riding beefalos on public servers.

Possible solution for con: Only allow the one that did the most/first feeding to brand a beefalo?

 

Another idea would be simply having the beef linked upon the first feeding, making the beefalo its player's soul responsibility.

Pro: Theft is impossible

con: Disallows community beefalo rides, prevents cooperative beefalo raising, and basically goes against the main point of Don't Starve Together.

[Diaboliko]

Honestly that stuff doesn't worth its time since game is developed for groups of frieds, rather then random people grouping up on dedicated servers. However problem of dedicated servers indeed exists and requires some different development approach. Which means it requires some work and time and should probably be left to modmakers to fix. (there is some personal chester mode, so that kind of stuff should be real)

[Trenix]

I think this whole domestication thing is out of control already. The game should just make it easier to tame beefalo and hold onto to the domestication. I feel like a lot of this game has amazing features but sometimes they're too difficult to even bother with.

[Ecu]

Cannot agree with this suggestion.  In public PvE games, the goal is to work together to survive and as such, Beefalo belong to the whole group, not an individual.  In public PvP games, theft of a tamed Beefalo is a legitimate tactic.  In private games, the rules are agreed upon via the players, and as such theft and the like should not happen in the first place.

As such, this suggestion is just kind of pointless.

I will say that basically Beefalo are not worth it.  I feel like given the time frame of an average run of DST, the time and focus it takes to tame a Beefalo will never be worth it under the existing system.  The quandary becomes whether the right route is to make Beefalo easier to tame/maintain, or make them better so that the time investment is worth it.  I lean more towards the latter.

[ittybritty]

"I will say that basically Beefalo are not worth it." On a private server with close knit friends, beefalos are absolutely worth it if you're diligent and intelligent enough to deal with the work. Even before complete domestication, beefalos are quite heavy hitters and very durable. The fact that they take ALL DAMAGE when you're riding them, and allow you to hold a torch while fighting without the inconvenience of setting the foe on fire is EXTREMELY useful. Ridable beefalos are basically power armor that, as power armor typically does, requires maintenance and fuel. 

Furthermore My initial optional branding idea still allows for cooperative beefalo taming, As stated in my initial post in case you failed to read it. And even if the beefalo doesn't belong to the whole group, a single player with a good beefalo belonging exclusively to that one player is STILL an incredible credit to the team, allowing the player to efficiently fight and hunt for the rest of the group while others take care of other important tasks. In addition, your assessment with PVE completely ignores the very real issue of Trolls.

As for making beefalos easier to tame, they're already much easier to tame than real wild bovines would be in real life. This game is, in no way, shape, or form, meant to be an easy one. If this were more like REAL domestication, it would involve hundreds of years of selective breeding, which would be much MUCH more difficult. 

[Ecu]

6 hours ago, ittybritty said:

"I will say that basically Beefalo are not worth it." On a private server with close knit friends, beefalos are absolutely worth it if you're diligent and intelligent enough to deal with the work. Even before complete domestication, beefalos are quite heavy hitters and very durable. The fact that they take ALL DAMAGE when you're riding them, and allow you to hold a torch while fighting without the inconvenience of setting the foe on fire is EXTREMELY useful. Ridable beefalos are basically power armor that, as power armor typically does, requires maintenance and fuel. 

Furthermore My initial optional branding idea still allows for cooperative beefalo taming, As stated in my initial post in case you failed to read it. And even if the beefalo doesn't belong to the whole group, a single player with a good beefalo belonging exclusively to that one player is STILL an incredible credit to the team, allowing the player to efficiently fight and hunt for the rest of the group while others take care of other important tasks. In addition, your assessment with PVE completely ignores the very real issue of Trolls.

As for making beefalos easier to tame, they're already much easier to tame than real wild bovines would be in real life. This game is, in no way, shape, or form, meant to be an easy one. If this were more like REAL domestication, it would involve hundreds of years of selective breeding, which would be much MUCH more difficult. 

Sounds like you really didn't read my post there and are taking things out of context.  I specifically commented that during an average play session (roughly 100-150 days), Beefalo are not worth it to tame.  Considering that the servers generally restart after such period of time, it makes the time investment not worth it.  In a private game, perhaps it would be more valuable...but I rarely see Beefalo used at all, regardless if it is public games or private games.

Regarding Beefalo being limited to a player, given the resource and time investment to tame a Beefalo, restricting it to a single person actually is a detriment in PvE.  If that player logs off, the sum of that time investment is essentially gone.

Regarding trolls, I feel the better solution to tolling is better moderation tools to catch trolling behavior and remove their ability to join games.

As for the last comment, I specifically stated that I would prefer seeing them be more valuable for the time investment, rather than easier to tame.  So I'm not even sure why you are commenting about this.

[ittybritty]

The last part was regarding other posts.

While I'll concede to your point about trolls and moderation tools, not seeing beefalos used much in game very much shows, as you don't seem to know much about them, their requirements, or their benefits. 

Fully domesticating a beefalo takes only 20 days if you do it right, and even before it's fully domesticated, it's a versatile and powerful asset. Resources needed to domesticate them are exceedingly easy to come by, especially with the addition of twiggy trees (Which I believe were placed in game specifically to feed beefalos through the winter), so it's really not that much of a waste, even in the winter. Just feed it a few twigs now and then, maybe give it unwanted fruit (Durians, specifically, just make sure you cook them) And leave it at a salt lick when you're not riding it, and make sure you have plenty of twiggy trees planted everywhere for a constant stream of sticks. 

Just five or so days into taming a beef and you'll have a usable amount of riding time, all the health,attack power, and running speed of a common beefalo at your disposal with a much higher attack speed than a common beefalo. Not to mention their health regenerates over time.

Unless you're looking for a pudgy beefalo, of course. You'll need a lot of sticks. That one can seriously put a dent into resources before it's fully domestic.

And I will admit they're significantly less useful during the spring, when they're constantly in heat and their riding time is cut in half, though they stop going into heat altogether when fully domestic.

TL;DR: They are already INCREDIBLY valuable, not nearly as costly or time consuming as people seem to think, and certainly not that much of a hindrance at all to the group if you know what you're doing.

[Ecu]

42 minutes ago, ittybritty said:

The last part was regarding other posts.

While I'll concede to your point about trolls and moderation tools, not seeing beefalos used much in game very much shows, as you don't seem to know much about them, their requirements, or their benefits. 

Fully domesticating a beefalo takes only 20 days if you do it right, and even before it's fully domesticated, it's a versatile and powerful asset. Resources needed to domesticate them are exceedingly easy to come by, especially with the addition of twiggy trees (Which I believe were placed in game specifically to feed beefalos through the winter), so it's really not that much of a waste, even in the winter. Just feed it a few twigs now and then, maybe give it unwanted fruit (Durians, specifically, just make sure you cook them) And leave it at a salt lick when you're not riding it, and make sure you have plenty of twiggy trees planted everywhere for a constant stream of sticks. 

Just five or so days into taming a beef and you'll have a usable amount of riding time, all the health,attack power, and running speed of a common beefalo at your disposal with a much higher attack speed than a common beefalo. Not to mention their health regenerates over time.

Unless you're looking for a pudgy beefalo, of course. You'll need a lot of sticks. That one can seriously put a dent into resources before it's fully domestic.

And I will admit they're significantly less useful during the spring, when they're constantly in heat and their riding time is cut in half, though they stop going into heat altogether when fully domestic.

TL;DR: They are already INCREDIBLY valuable, not nearly as costly or time consuming as people seem to think, and certainly not that much of a hindrance at all to the group if you know what you're doing.

Way to make assumptions without legitimate evidence.  I have actually checked out the taming system.  You can actually tame one in as few as 15 days, if you have the brush (which you generally will not have until at least after winter).  The speed bonus from walking cane is more flexible and does not have the limitations Beefalo have.  It can also be used underground.  Regarding damage dealt, a fresh meat bat can do more damage than an onry beefalo, and is much easier to acquire.

Given that the average server duration before reset is 100-150 days, 20 days to tame a beefalo and only getting the current benefits is not a worthwhile venture.  Even at 15 days, it wouldn't really be the best use of time.  Of course, you could have the person that is managing the base feed the beefalo as well, but being able to drag the beefalo to the base and trapping it long enough that it stays is again a large time sink, which at the end would be better put towards cultivating pigs to have unlimited meat bats.

I'm sorry, but I just cannot agree that they are really all that beneficial for the current standard play.  On a long running, private experience, it may be alright.  However, that doesn't fit with the average play experience.

[ittybritty]

Alright... What if something (or several somethings) was added into the game to encourage longer sessions? Make dedicated servers more popular, or simply make a longer game more enjoyable to the general public?

[ittybritty]

I noticed this got off topic. It stopped being about whether or not linking beefalos to players is a good idea, and more about if beefalos are worth it at all. 

Regardless, I'm hoping they add beefalo taming to the main, singleplayer game. That's where it'll truly start to thrive. 

[Ecu]

2 hours ago, ittybritty said:

Alright... What if something (or several somethings) was added into the game to encourage longer sessions? Make dedicated servers more popular, or simply make a longer game more enjoyable to the general public?

Longer sessions just won't reasonably work without completely overhauling how the game works.  There would need to be more systems in place to wipe out bases that were no longer in use, methods to keep bases safe while you were logged off, methods to keep people from taking your items while logged off, methods to respawn all resources via a fun an engaging way, etc.

The game just isn't designed like a MMO.  It is really designed more along the lines of runs.  Where you go as long as you can during a run and then you start over.  Runs can be private games that you save and continue on layer with your friends, or public games where you sit down with a few random people and play for 4-10 hours.  Trying to keep public servers up continuously just runs into a lot of problems from a good gameplay point of view.

2 hours ago, ittybritty said:

Regardless, I'm hoping they add beefalo taming to the main, singleplayer game. That's where it'll truly start to thrive. 

I think it would be great to see a whole lot of the DST content ported over to regular DS.  Then again, I think at this point, I think it would be more awesome to have them take what they've learned from their various games and make a Don't Starve II essentially.  Shipwrecked, while awesome felt like a lot of the map was just wasted space.  So it would be fun to see it integrated more with the main overworld instead.

2 hours ago, ittybritty said:

I noticed this got off topic. It stopped being about whether or not linking beefalos to players is a good idea, and more about if beefalos are worth it at all. 

Yeah, it kind of did.  That happens a bit when you discuss ideas that are so interlinked as many aspects of DS/DST are.  Regarding the specific topic, I kind of hold my ground that linking and having beefalo log off with the player is a bad idea given the current game design.

[Arlesienne]

One sharp question: if every player has a beefalo and logs out, effectively the herd is gone: how do you get wool from shaving?

[Daniel86268]

Maybe beefalo branding shouldn't be applied instantly/on feeding, and more like with a special item like a collar. (Which is completely optional and serves no other purporse than linking the beefalo to your player.)

This way Beefalo can be used by multiple people (for example shared in a group) or, if a player decides to, be personalized and will log out on owner logout, etc.

If it's implemented this way there should be also an item that let's you unbrand your beefalo like a "collarhorn" (?) (equivalent to a saddlehorn, but for the collar) which unbinds the Beefalo from the player (only usable by the owner of the beefalo)

 

Also what about a limit to owned beefalo? Like either one beefalo per player or three, so every player could own every tendency of Beefalo. Not sure about that, but it might be good to limit owned Beefalo to prevent one player to run around and grab all Beefalo/all domesticated beefalo. (The latter will only happen on PvP or open PvE servers though)

[Arlesienne]

54 minutes ago, Daniel86268 said:

Also what about a limit to owned beefalo? Like either one beefalo per player or three, so every player could own every tendency of Beefalo. Not sure about that, but it might be good to limit owned Beefalo to prevent one player to run around and grab all Beefalo/all domesticated beefalo. (The latter will only happen on PvP or open PvE servers though)

You can easily circumvent the one-beefie-per-player limit by having enough people. Then a massive reenactment of the glorious csttle raids from Masai legends can commence. The fundamental difference between pets that log out with the player and beefies that don't is that the former change nothing when they're gone, unlike the latter.

[ittybritty]

7 hours ago, Arlesienne said:

One sharp question: if every player has a beefalo and logs out, effectively the herd is gone: how do you get wool from shaving?

You don't shave domestic beefalos. It cuts their riding time in half and reduces their domesticity. You get wool from the non domestic herd while they're asleep. 

[ittybritty]

5 hours ago, Arlesienne said:

You can easily circumvent the one-beefie-per-player limit by having enough people. Then a massive reenactment of the glorious csttle raids from Masai legends can commence. The fundamental difference between pets that log out with the player and beefies that don't is that the former change nothing when they're gone, unlike the latter.

Most servers have a limit on how many people can join, and how about branding only be possible if there's already a number of wild beefalos?

[Arlesienne]

5 minutes ago, ittybritty said:

You don't shave domestic beefalos. It cuts their riding time in half and reduces their domesticity. You get wool from the non domestic herd while they're asleep. 

You do get wool from domesticated ones every day - through grooming them. It's actually a much better option of acquiring wool than waiting for the night to shave them. At least for the more experienced players.

Just now, ittybritty said:

Most servers have a limit on how many people can join, and how about branding only be possible if there's already a number of wild beefalos?

How do you interpret it? Explain in more detail please.

[ittybritty]

1 minute ago, Arlesienne said:

You do get wool from domesticated ones every day - through grooming them. It's actually a much better option of acquiring wool than waiting for the night to shave them. At least for the more experienced players.

How do you interpret it? Explain in more detail please.

I find shaving wild ones at night to be a much more efficient use of resources when I really need wool. Mainly because I have the worst luck finding the ewecus.

As for the numbers. I'd say it'd be herd based. Ten or so wild beefs must be present in the origin herd... Alternatively, branding can only be possible with a fully domestic beefalo and can only done by the person who did the most work domesticating (Feeding/riding), forcing players to really work hard to really make a beefalo 'theirs' 

Regardless, I'm starting to see everyone's point. It's obvious that this feature is better suited for single player. 

[ittybritty]

11 hours ago, Ecu said:

Longer sessions just won't reasonably work without completely overhauling how the game works.  There would need to be more systems in place to wipe out bases that were no longer in use, methods to keep bases safe while you were logged off, methods to keep people from taking your items while logged off, methods to respawn all resources via a fun an engaging way, etc.

 

I admit that I've been a bit spoiled with private family games (And perhaps been a bit contrary, stubborn, and rude. And I apologize whole heartedly). The act of wiping out bases no longer in use would be trivial, grab a hammer and start looting, or simply take the base as your own. They'd be like large set pieces you find in the game as normal!  Summer would also help with this with its wildfires popping up wherever there's a player there to load ticks. If you find a burnt down base, it's reasonable to assume it's been abandoned for a while and you're free to take the land for your own, or simply clear it out for resources and tidiness.

As for protecting temporarily unattended bases and items, that's slightly more difficult. Perhaps a timed protection method with a maximum of a few IRL days? 

As for resource respawning! Twiggy trees can handily replace saplings and are very easy to multiply, and meteors do an excellent job for stones. The lizards and grass could use.. a little work considering the lizards' tendency to run into tooth traps... And I fully believe that we should be able to feed the caged bird berries for at least a small chance at getting bush seeds to grow in the farm plots and relocate at a later time. 

Flowers and carrots pop up on their own in the game through natural regeneration, so we won't have to worry much about that.

Though flint would undeniably become an issue for players joining late in the game. Small bits should probably just pop up on the ground from time to time near the spawn (Perhaps some kind of unmovable flint 'plant' Thing?) . There's already a "world regrow" setting, which effects saplings, berry bushes, flowers, carrots, rabbit holes, and grass, and would reasonably be set high if you intend to have a long lived world with plenty of people. 

This game already has a lot of thought put into it for high populations and long run times, it just needs a few small tweeks and perhaps a small bit of diligence from the players. With the right use of annoying to overcome walls, someone could keep two beefalos for breeding to prevent any risk of extinction. No feeding required, just stick them in a big box and let them do their business throughout spring, lead a bunch out to make new herds as needed.  

But this relies on players being responsible. The unpredictable human element is never reliable, which is why open sandbox multiplayer games are hard. Bleh.

[Ecu]

1 hour ago, ittybritty said:

I admit that I've been a bit spoiled with private family games (And perhaps been a bit contrary, stubborn, and rude. And I apologize whole heartedly). The act of wiping out bases no longer in use would be trivial, grab a hammer and start looting, or simply take the base as your own. They'd be like large set pieces you find in the game as normal!  Summer would also help with this with its wildfires popping up wherever there's a player there to load ticks. If you find a burnt down base, it's reasonable to assume it's been abandoned for a while and you're free to take the land for your own, or simply clear it out for resources and tidiness.

As for protecting temporarily unattended bases and items, that's slightly more difficult. Perhaps a timed protection method with a maximum of a few IRL days? 

As for resource respawning! Twiggy trees can handily replace saplings and are very easy to multiply, and meteors do an excellent job for stones. The lizards and grass could use.. a little work considering the lizards' tendency to run into tooth traps... And I fully believe that we should be able to feed the caged bird berries for at least a small chance at getting bush seeds to grow in the farm plots and relocate at a later time. 

Flowers and carrots pop up on their own in the game through natural regeneration, so we won't have to worry much about that.

Though flint would undeniably become an issue for players joining late in the game. Small bits should probably just pop up on the ground from time to time near the spawn (Perhaps some kind of unmovable flint 'plant' Thing?) . There's already a "world regrow" setting, which effects saplings, berry bushes, flowers, carrots, rabbit holes, and grass, and would reasonably be set high if you intend to have a long lived world with plenty of people. 

This game already has a lot of thought put into it for high populations and long run times, it just needs a few small tweeks and perhaps a small bit of diligence from the players. With the right use of annoying to overcome walls, someone could keep two beefalos for breeding to prevent any risk of extinction. No feeding required, just stick them in a big box and let them do their business throughout spring, lead a bunch out to make new herds as needed.  

But this relies on players being responsible. The unpredictable human element is never reliable, which is why open sandbox multiplayer games are hard. Bleh.

These ideas alone tell me that you want something more akin to a isometric Minecraft, than a roguelike survival game that DST is.  I fully agree that said changes could make for an interesting game in it's own right, however, that isn't DST.  Don't Starve has always been about struggling to survive, with the eventuality being that you lose and start over.

This is backed by statistics that show that the average server lifespan is only around 20 hours (150 in-game days).

I understand your desire for this form of endless world gameplay, but that just really hasn't been what the game has been about.  This is why I've made comments in various threads where people ask for these kind of things, stating that they should look at modding to achieve their aims (or other games).

[ittybritty]

18 hours ago, Ecu said:

These ideas alone tell me that you want something more akin to a isometric Minecraft, than a roguelike survival game that DST is.  I fully agree that said changes could make for an interesting game in it's own right, however, that isn't DST.  Don't Starve has always been about struggling to survive, with the eventuality being that you lose and start over.

This is backed by statistics that show that the average server lifespan is only around 20 hours (150 in-game days).

I understand your desire for this form of endless world gameplay, but that just really hasn't been what the game has been about.  This is why I've made comments in various threads where people ask for these kind of things, stating that they should look at modding to achieve their aims (or other games).

I guess what I really want is a don't starve together game that lasts as long as I do in the single player Don't Starve. Or rather, a don't starve together game that lasts as long as I do in the single player where I don't have to wait for my family to get on and I can just get on at my whim and not lose progress, but I still get to play with other people...

I wonder how obscenely difficult it would be to make decent bots to play with... Probably more difficult than it's worth. Maybe I'll just make my own single player DST world and maybe invite other people now and then when I run into a two person task.

[Ecu]

39 minutes ago, ittybritty said:

I guess what I really want is a don't starve together game that lasts as long as I do in the single player Don't Starve. Or rather, a don't starve together game that lasts as long as I do in the single player where I don't have to wait for my family to get on and I can just get on at my whim and not lose progress, but I still get to play with other people...

I wonder how obscenely difficult it would be to make decent bots to play with... Probably more difficult than it's worth. Maybe I'll just make my own single player DST world and maybe invite other people now and then when I run into a two person task.

Private games with friends is pretty much what DST is designed around.  Public games are bound to be sort of limited to that 20 hours (150 day) realm, on average.  However, playing with just a few friends is definitely an option and by choosing people you know won't grief and will work together, you can have a more enjoyable experience.

[Electroely]

13 minutes ago, Ecu said:

Private games with friends is pretty much what DST is designed around.  Public games are bound to be sort of limited to that 20 hours (150 day) realm, on average.  However, playing with just a few friends is definitely an option and by choosing people you know won't grief and will work together, you can have a more enjoyable experience.

SOMEONE finally has a basic idea of the game.

(goddamn Strictly Unprofessional Public started making 1-2k runs and I'm way too bored since it's the only non-laggy public server with default world settings there is on the beta branch)

[justjasper]

I think domestication could be improved just by having the decay time slowed considerably once they've hit 100%, even perhaps never fully un-domesticating once they've been brought to 100% at least once (say never going lower than 25%), unless a conscious effort is made to un-domesticate a beefalo, eg with the whip. So sure if you're on a public/dedicate server and you have to leave your beefalo it might drop obedience and domestication, but it won't go "wild" again.

Or community vs solo saddles - the default saddle allows anyone to ride/interact with a domesticated beefalo, a "custom saddle" item locks it to one player. Some modders have already toyed with similar ideas. Wouldn't surprise me if the dev team are already thinking up ways to make domestication a more popular game activity - they're not stupid, they surely know that's still a bit clunky and unfeasible for some popular game styles.