If we're keeping the vote kick system I need to know one thing

[ItsPizzaTime]

Yes I'm sorry it's THAT post again BUT with the silence on Klei's end in terms of their stance on this vote kick system that they've implemented, I've come to realize that they either really have nothing to say about this system as they feel there is nothing wrong, or have absolutely no idea how to "fix" this problem and satisfy the majority and therefore are abandoning the idea in its current state. As it stands now, it is very difficult to enjoy a run without someone being a jerk, and I get that there needs to be some sort of system in place to try and solve this problem. But, this system as I have mentioned before is completely broken and pretty much does the opposite of what it is supposed to be doing in most scenarios. It is so easy to get around this system and even abuse it that it seems there are more problems now than without the system. Without further reiterating this issue as I have many many times in other threads before I'd like to seriously reach out and ask for a legitimate response on what Klei is going to do to improve this. If you want to keep this system in, FINE, but PLEASE tell me that you're going to at least address the issue of AVOIDING THE KICK. Its so simple and easy to do, just leave the server and rejoin in 10-15 seconds and BAM you have another 20 second window to do as you please before the system attempts to successfully kick the player. If the player is not in the server when the actual kick comes out it doesn't do anything and they can join immediately back and begin doing whatever again. Here is a nice example of what has happened a few times since this has been discovered:

Here we can see that someone has left the game, as a kick has gone out and mysteriously a part of the base has been caught aflame! Well you can piece it together, this is someone who has left the game because they know they're going to be kicked for what they've done and in their eyes
"HEY, it can't hurt to leave if you're going to be kicked anyways?" Whether they know that they can just join back or not, all it takes is one try to see if it works. Of course, they joined back 10 seconds later and:

He's BACK with more incentive to be a pyro than anything, by this time at least i have a bit of ice to combat the issue. This went on for a bit until I had the base cleared out and a ring of nests placed where he kept leaving and rejoining, so that when he did spawn in he would die (Webber is best amirite?). But we lost a lot of time (and more importantly, PLAYERS) and sadly a flingo may have been able to prevent most of this from happening, but these weren't the best of players as is everyone when they first start playing so of course this happens. Now on to my point, what is the difference between this system being in place and what we had before (nothing)? The only differences I can see, and i'll list them by pro and con

Pro- Between the times where he had to leave the server, we did have a bit of time to assemble some things to attempt to stop him like ice, and luckily we got an extra gear from tumbleweeds nearby and immediately assembled a flingo.

Con- The entire system as a whole can be used both negatively and positively. The system is capable of kicking anyone, and people who are aware of how it works can easily work around it making it useless, while there is no way to prevent those who have done nothing and are victim to a kick that they do not deserve. The same goes for a rollback / server RESTARTS, there is no way to tell by a servers standards when and if this should happen, quite frankly I believe there should be no server restart option vote for the average player. The server should only when E V E R Y O N E wants it to. (a whole 'nother issue, I know.

 

So a recap, with this system in place there is almost no difference to maybe even more problems than before in terms of issues. It is much easier for someone who isn't guilty of anything to be a victim of this system that has no moral compass, as well as it is elementary for anyone who is deserving of a kick to completely avoid the kick and even continue doing what they love with more incentive than ever. I know I'm more than likely going to get the comment that is pretty much guaranteed with this topic of "play on a server with only an admin!", and yes i fully agree and even now do i ever rarely go on a server that isn't usually moderated or has some form of admin lurking / playing to guard the server (only when there are no other servers up with people). I just bring this up because I love this game and the whole experience of playing with others can be super rewarding but when stuff like this happens it really deters people from playing. I could have easily gone and made my own camp, I had more than enough resources to do whatever I wanted, because even in this case none of this stuff that was burnt was mine, but whats the point If i'm playing for interactions with others anyways? I might as well be playing single player. All in all I believe this system IF IT MUST STAY needs a serious re-tweaking, and we could start with preventing people from avoiding the kicks. With a system like this I know that when you solve one issue others can arise in its place but if you leave this the way it is, it is most certainly worse than before when there was no system.

 

Klei, my question is, is there ANY WAY you can keep track of a persons Klei ID or something and if a kick has been initiated against them, the system NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND that when it passes they cannot be allowed to join back. If we must deal with this system you have put in place it has to be somewhat functioning, because as it is now it is getting harder and harder to find a server to play with others on and have a guaranteed "good" experience. Bottom line, it is now more important to find a server that has an active admin now than it was before and with this voting system in place and the logic of "dont join a server if you dont want to deal with crap" the amount of actual servers there are to play on with other options like (is the ping good? is it modded to high heavens and basically completely un-enjoyable for someone who wants a challange/vanilla experience? is it an actual dedicated and stable server? and many more) is basically limited to less than 5 servers at least on the beta branch. Maybe this will be better when the branches merge but from my past experiences I only see more greifing in the stable than beta, so I'm actually enjoying the separation of branches and not really looking forward to the merging of them right now.

Sorry for the wall of text but as it stands now despite all of these wonderful updates, additions to the game and content galore this will always haunt me and be probably the biggest issue this game has in my opinion. No matter what though, I will always love you guys and the game you have made as it has brought me countless hours of entertainment and many more good memories and friends than bad, and it is because of these things that I am overly passionate about this issue.

[NikkoKikko]

Until they make the system better it's a griefer's paradise unforunately.

Klei, Please, PLEASE help us enojoy this great game you have created by adding some protection for all the good players.

[364266_1452783569]

Nevermind, your post is just very long that it looked like you had no solution, make your own server this can be avoided.

[GentlemanFridge]

3 hours ago, 364266_1452783569 said:

Nevermind, your post is just very long that it looked like you had no solution, make your own server this can be avoided.

This doesn't solve the problem with Klei Official servers, which are griefed even more often. I myself wouldn't have the perfect solution, I'm way to "iegh" with techical doodads.

Sure, the OP may not have the perfect solution, but at least they are trying to adress it once more. It deserves attention.

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

The system as it currently stands isn't a griefer's paradise per se. It's a tough system, which creates tension between a griefer and other players. Yes, the griefer can try and kick you out and the vote may get to a point where it will pass for sure, but you can dodge it yourself in order to rejoin and keep up the fight. I once had a vote-kicker join and after a few failed attempts they left. If the griefer sees their vote won't go through they will get bored and possibly leave to look for a differrnt server to try and reset and kick all the players off of or simply quit the game.

This, however does not work well if it's a griefer with bots/friends to help them out and in the case of a low server amount or even a medium server amount, this would become pretty much impossible to dodge. Regardless of how you try to balanca the vote kicking, there will always be a fair bit of abuse by this system no matter how well it's done, simply because of the majority-vote thing as griefers could have more allies/bots helping thembeat the system.

 

Plus, you might not know when someone is an intentional griefer or just a noob and overreact to a newbie's burnung actions, kicking them straight away. On another note, some people don't understand that griefing is looked at as a crime, when they think it's funny, like burning non-renewable turf to just have a laugh when you've warned them plenty of times not to do so or burning down a base to show people that "you're not somebody to be messed with" i.e if you don't care to cooperate, you're gonna get it (which I think is quite justified. I was actually trying to bring up a different scenario here, but I forgot the details of it).

 

This is precisely why the concept of keeping

 

People say that if such approach were to be taken into the game, it would be a cat-and-mouse game, you trying to keep griefers from griefing while they find out new ways to grief and about some others points against such action . I have a few things to say about that:

1) Same goes for vote-kick. The system was changed a few times in order to prevent griefing, yet here we are, trying to push it to change it.

2) No it wouldn't. It might be for a while, and possibly at times new content would be introduced, but ultimately, the game's content isn't infinite. There's only so much you can grief with.

3) Some people may say it would ruin the uncompromisingness of the game... How? How would it? How would stopping players from doing what they normally wouldn't do anyway take away from the uncompromising things the game gives? Is griefing something uncompromising for you? If so, then why are you complaining about it?

4) You won't know until it is actually put into practice. And if you think a mod should be made to do this, mdders can't exactly do as much as devs can due to variables being set to local and the fact that modders are starting to quit for the exact same reason or reasons beyond anybody's control (irl), while developers actually dedicate their time with the game. You know, devs themselves could make mods as they've done before and if they make a mod preventing griefing and it's something that works well, they can try and put it in the game, while scrapping it/leaving it as a mod if it does not work.

 

5) Yes, mechanics would need to be very specific in order to deal with griefing, but at the end of it all, don't you think it wouldbe worth it? Griefing becoming pretty much the thing of the past while you barely notice anything different with the mechanics anyway in the long run. Heck, griefers seeing there's no way to grief well might give up due to boredom and either quit or start to play nicely. You might think this is me being naive, but if you understand psychology better and apply it to the game and its mechanics, this makes much more sense. In short, if it's not fun to be a griefer and it is much more fun to play legitemately, why would anyone really grief? If done well, this could prove for excellent game design in multiplayer interaction as the game would take human psychology in relation to itself and be balanced based upon that.

 

6) If you want everything to be reliant on admins, this is a bad idea on so many levels. Admins may abuse their privilidges and I've seen this happen multiple times before. And what if you suddenly fall out with an admin of a server you've played hundreds of hours on? What if cheating (using console) ruins the game for you? There's nothing you can do about that. Host your own server? Then the same can apply to the people who play with you. Since Klei servers go unmonitored, with decent griefer-preventative mechanucs they might just become the best go-to servers due to admin abuse.

 

On another note... If you're playing on a survival server, which has mechanics that make it easy for anyone to reset the server when everyone's left and you will want the server to reset anyway... Why are you complaining about vote-kick? Your progress will get erased pretty soon regardless because of the "one person ondying will reset the server" thing.

[ItsPizzaTime]

12 hours ago, 364266_1452783569 said:

Nevermind, your post is just very long that it looked like you had no solution, make your own server this can be avoided.

 

21 hours ago, ItsPizzaTime said:

but whats the point If i'm playing for interactions with others anyways? I might as well be playing single player.

 

[ItsPizzaTime]

@EuedeAdodooedoe my post as a whole isn't nessecarily just about how it can be abused, its based on the fact that if this system MUST STAY (which im getting implications from the fact that klei is silent that they do plan on keeping this) it has to be absolute in some way, because literally as it stands now there isn't a single function this new system does that helps any of our problems when it comes to an "Experienced greifer". If i could honestly choose any course of action here it would be to completely remove the voting system and leave things up to server admins only. This system is capable of doing more harm than good.

 

Now lets talk about me and again why I am making this post exactly. Was I directly the victim of this series of events that i highlighted in my original post? Hardly. In my inventory and what I had pre-crafted I could waltz right off make my own base and live my life happily. I could easily deter most other players by surrounding my structures with spiders and keep to myself off in a cave or whatnot. I can easily do my best to avoid the population and 99% of the time I am never greifed. The PROBLEM here is that other people don't want to play when one person comes in and is quite obviously abusing the kick system and showing everyone there that they have no power over them. I really don't have a solution, but what I can say like I have said before is this system is NOT helping them against someone who knows how to greif. They have NO MORE power than they did before, and if anything the greifer has more tools than just a hammer and torch to actually go and mess with people (like you mentioned, making multiple accounts and restarting the world or systematically kicking innocent people unware of the kick system.)

And also, you mention that "oh you're not a greifer just avoid the kick like they do ez-pz" but don't you get it? You're just highlighting the fact that the system is more useless and broken than I did. And to address your last statement, I'm complaining about the system because it favors the greifer more than the innocent. Whether people are aware of how to manipulate it is irrelevant because in the long run it exists and as it continues to exist more people will cheese the kick and make it useless when they deserve it.

 

As it stands now I never enter a server that isn't administrated to play seriously, unless I really want to play and dont care about what happens. I typically don't care about bases or anything i've built anyways, as it inevitably goes away with a reset. The issue here is that people are being strayed away from the game because of the greifing just the same as before without the system and I really want to know if Klei has plans for any solutions.

[verm1ll1on]

Firstly, it can't be unanimous for a vote to pass. It was like that, didn't work. In fact, it was terrible. The only case where the vote should be unanimous to pass is when restoring the world's resources (aka restarting the server), that way new comers that join after winter can't ruin the game for someone who has spent hours playing in that world already. Rollback and kicks should be what the majority wants it to be.

Each person that starts a vote should not be allowed to start another for 10 minutes, so we won't have vote spamming anymore.

If a person is being kick voted, that person should not be allowed to exit the server. If he forces his exit (ctrl+f4), the game should recognize the player as guilty and apply the penalty. That's a way to deal with grieffers. That's also bad for people that get kicked for no reason, but what would be the point of exiting and rejoining a server where people are trying to kick you?

[ItsPizzaTime]

40 minutes ago, verm1ll1on said:

Firstly, it can't be unanimous for a vote to pass. It was like that, didn't work. In fact, it was terrible. The only case where the vote should be unanimous to pass is when restoring the world's resources (aka restarting the server), that way new comers that join after winter can't ruin the game for someone who has spent hours playing in that world already. Rollback and kicks should be what the majority wants it to be.

Each person that starts a vote should not be allowed to start another for 10 minutes, so we won't have vote spamming anymore.

If a person is being kick voted, that person should not be allowed to exit the server. If he forces his exit (ctrl+f4), the game should recognize the player as guilty and apply the penalty. That's a way to deal with grieffers. That's also bad for people that get kicked for no reason, but what would be the point of exiting and rejoining a server where people are trying to kick you?

These are some incredible ideas, especially the last one. It is sad that there will almost always be a gray area inbetween who does deserve and who doesn't deserve the kick but if we are to keep this system this is a good way to start with "fixing" it.

[verm1ll1on]

23 minutes ago, ItsPizzaTime said:

These are some incredible ideas, especially the last one. It is sad that there will almost always be a gray area inbetween who does deserve and who doesn't deserve the kick but if we are to keep this system this is a good way to start with "fixing" it.

Yea, as long as the power to kick is in the hands of people, it'll always be used both for good and bad things. That's just life, but it surely can be improved to help against grieffers and not be abused with vote spamming or regenerating because 3 newcomers think spring a hard season to start in.