Pvp Game mode?

[Monkeygh10]

I figured dont starve would do good for a game-mode that focuses on pvp. A mode that promotes pvp for example you all spawn in separate locations when you die you die and the last person alive wins. Idk just throwing ideas out there. Also perhaps balancing a few things for this mode

[Karmattack]

Wilderness works kind of like that already, they'd just need to tweak it a bit. 

[Axehilt]

Eh, doesn't feel like Don't Starve will ever provide compelling PVP gameplay.  It's never going to be a game about skillful PVP competition, and instead will tend to be one-sided slaughters which fails to be interesting for either party.  

Even if you controlled for the best-possible DST PVP (no equipment imbalances, both players full health, no PVE ganking, no imbalanced population, etc) the game just fundamentally isn't set up to provide good PVP.

It's like using a hammer to screw in some screws: it's just a really inefficient tool for the job. DST is a fantastic game, but its PVP will simply never come anywhere close to games which were designed as PVP games (Street Fighter 5, Battlefield, Starcraft, LoL, etc.)  This means any development hours spent on PVP will inherently be far less impactful than those spent on PVE.

[Muttbutt]

16 hours ago, Axehilt said:

 

Eh, doesn't feel like Don't Starve will ever provide compelling PVP gameplay.

 

I don't think I can disagree more with @Axehilt. 

A lot of the fun of PvP is getting ready and gearing up for whatever fights that might creep up on you. You need to adapt fast and be good under pressure, as well as be quick to get what you need because others are after the same. 

One reason that Don't Starve Together stands out in a PvP environment is the vast differences in characters and how you have to account their strengths and weaknesses to choose who you play and how to counter that character if there is one on the battlefield. Wolfgang is fast-moving and hard-hitting, but he struggles with food. Maxwell can read STS and has high-damage puppets, but can easily be taken out if caught off-guard. Wickerbottom can read STS and requires less resources while also having early-game recipes right off the bat, but can be countered if you keep pressure and don't let her read her book. 

While I do agree that RNG and boones can turn the tables on a PvP match, they in no way set a game in stone as "a one-sided slaughter." You have to get your gear and faster than everyone else, if not you'll miss out on important stuff like gems or pig skin. You also need to know how to fight in combat, and I mean kiting, fake-outs, use of healing and magic, and what armor and weapon you should have. Even a Wes can out-play a Wickerbottom or Wolfgang if he has better gear and knows his way around combat. You must be willing to fail and make mistakes in order to learn.

Was DST meant for PvP? Probably not, no, but Don't Starve was never meant to be a multiplayer game. Thats why the characters vary like they do. I find PvP fun all the way through. Its fun starting off and surviving on the bare minimum, its fun to gather and gear up for fights, its fun running or hunting others in the big open world, its fun to get into fights, and its even fun seeing what interesting ways my enemies up and kill me. I don't win majority of my PvP fights, in fact I do lose more than I do win. But it is the journey, not the destination for me, and if I do happen to get a kill which I do now and then, it makes it even better. 

DST PvP I feel should get way more attention than it gets from the devs, because yes, it can use a great deal of improving. Wickerbottom as of right now, while she is counterable, is the meta with STS. Because of its large range and bugs like "drowsy stacking," the book needs to be looked over for sure. Combat-logging is a constant problem on servers that don't have the PvPfix mod to counter it, and there are a great amount of servers without it because it isn't publicly distributed or known (I'd love if it was on the Steam Workshop.) 

DST wasn't supposed to be like LoL or WoW, more in the line of the Culling, Rust, or other survival-PvP games. Don't give up hope on it yet, try playing a few rounds and getting a grip of how it is played. Of course its silly to screw in screws with a hammer, but as long as you have fun doing it, I wouldn't do it any other way.

[Mikeadatrix]

In my opinion, PvP is as unbalanced as you can possibly get it. Not only does it have biased character choices, (Wig,Wolf,Rare Wicker, Super Rare Max) but it's about cheating the system. Wicker excels because with Sleepytime stories or a pan flute, she dominates! An armor less, fully fed Wolfgang can take down a fully armored Wigfrid in 15 bloody seconds! PvP needs a revamp because right now, it's my most hated aspect in DST.

[Karmattack]

Either they need to make separate servers for PVP with different character balances, or they need to make new characters with abilities more geared towards PVP. 

[Mikeadatrix]

8 minutes ago, Karmattack said:

Either they need to make separate servers for PVP with different character balances, or they need to make new characters with abilities more geared towards PVP. 

I say here here to the first one. Fix the old characters, don't abandon them.

[artemiyME]

On 5/16/2016 at 0:34 PM, Monkeygh10 said:

I figured dont starve would do good for a game-mode that focuses on pvp. A mode that promotes pvp for example you all spawn in separate locations when you die you die and the last person alive wins. Idk just throwing ideas out there. Also perhaps balancing a few things for this mode

As far as game mode I have implemented new Wilderness and Survival mix mode on my PVP servers, essentially all it is a Survival without portal and spawn in random locations, you die like in survival you reset servers like in survival, this could be of use for you if you think about hosting PVP servers.

Strongly disagree with @Axehilt and strongly agree with @Muttbutt with few notes:

Quote

Wickerbottom as of right now, while she is counterable, is the meta with STS. Because of its large range and bugs like "drowsy stacking," the book needs to be looked over for sure.

Just recently nerfed range of STS from 30 to 18 (based on voting), testing this week on my 2 PVP servers for general consensus. Also drowsy stacking has been removed as well.

Quote

Combat-logging is a constant problem on servers that don't have the PvPfix mod to counter it, and there are a great amount of servers without it because it isn't publicly distributed or known (I'd love if it was on the Steam Workshop.)

Yes, combat logging is a great addition to the PVPfix mod, it is a great mod, and BoomBox always volunteers his time to add options to it, just yesterday he added more stuff into it (listed above). It was his preference not to make it public, and I can understand that, but he is not opposed if someone made it official if they want, he called it a "free code", all I can do for now is host it on my website with link to latest one HERE (it also adds earmuffs protection option which stops sleeping but makes you drowsy, everything is optional which is amazing)

On a general note, yes there is no PVP balance, game involves a lot of RNG and luck, but what we can do is enhance SKILL based mechanics and NERF Survival-geared imbalances (like spawn killing, STS, gears, walls, slurtle slime, etc.) to make it more fun, enjoyable and something worth remembering.

 

 

 

 

 

[Axehilt]

3 hours ago, Muttbutt said:

I don't think I can disagree more with @Axehilt. 

A lot of the fun of PvP is getting ready and gearing up for whatever fights that might creep up on you. You need to adapt fast and be good under pressure, as well as be quick to get what you need because others are after the same. 

One reason that Don't Starve Together stands out in a PvP environment is the vast differences in characters and how you have to account their strengths and weaknesses to choose who you play and how to counter that character if there is one on the battlefield. Wolfgang is fast-moving and hard-hitting, but he struggles with food. Maxwell can read STS and has high-damage puppets, but can easily be taken out if caught off-guard. Wickerbottom can read STS and requires less resources while also having early-game recipes right off the bat, but can be countered if you keep pressure and don't let her read her book. 

While I do agree that RNG and boones can turn the tables on a PvP match, they in no way set a game in stone as "a one-sided slaughter." You have to get your gear and faster than everyone else, if not you'll miss out on important stuff like gems or pig skin. You also need to know how to fight in combat, and I mean kiting, fake-outs, use of healing and magic, and what armor and weapon you should have. Even a Wes can out-play a Wickerbottom or Wolfgang if he has better gear and knows his way around combat. You must be willing to fail and make mistakes in order to learn.

Was DST meant for PvP? Probably not, no, but Don't Starve was never meant to be a multiplayer game. Thats why the characters vary like they do. I find PvP fun all the way through. Its fun starting off and surviving on the bare minimum, its fun to gather and gear up for fights, its fun running or hunting others in the big open world, its fun to get into fights, and its even fun seeing what interesting ways my enemies up and kill me. I don't win majority of my PvP fights, in fact I do lose more than I do win. But it is the journey, not the destination for me, and if I do happen to get a kill which I do now and then, it makes it even better. 

DST PvP I feel should get way more attention than it gets from the devs, because yes, it can use a great deal of improving. Wickerbottom as of right now, while she is counterable, is the meta with STS. Because of its large range and bugs like "drowsy stacking," the book needs to be looked over for sure. Combat-logging is a constant problem on servers that don't have the PvPfix mod to counter it, and there are a great amount of servers without it because it isn't publicly distributed or known (I'd love if it was on the Steam Workshop.) 

DST wasn't supposed to be like LoL or WoW, more in the line of the Culling, Rust, or other survival-PvP games. Don't give up hope on it yet, try playing a few rounds and getting a grip of how it is played. Of course its silly to screw in screws with a hammer, but as long as you have fun doing it, I wouldn't do it any other way.

You're saying a lot of the fun of PVP is not PVPing.  Well yeah, that's like I was saying: Don't Starve's biggest strength is PVE quality. It's a fantastic PVE game.

The failure point for PVP is much deeper than RNG, which is why I didn't even bring it up.

In Don't Starve's PVE, players often have more decisions available onscreen (craft something, chop tree, gather grass, etc) than they have time to perform all those decisions.  Deciding (a) which things to do and (b) what order to do them is at the heart of how the game provides interesting gameplay. "A game is a series of interesting decisions", as the Sid Meier quote goes (creator of Civilization).

By focusing on gathering/crafting decisions, the result was a game whose combat decisions were fairly minimal.

This focus didn't hurt PVE, because PVE is all those other non-combat decisions (in addition to the light combat element.) 

But PVP is combat.* This means that in ideal situations, the game's PVP is worse than good PVP games because there simply isn't enough depth to it.  You can move and make one type of attack, plus a mere handful of items and powers like Maxwell's clones, and that's basically it. That doesn't even remotely approach the depth of decisions found in something like Street Fighter 5, where combat is incredibly nuanced and characters have a tremendous breadth to how they can attack and defend.

But it gets worse. Those are the ideal situations, where both players are on the exact same footing and while combat may be shallow at least the skilled player is winning.  In reality, one player or the other will likely have superior progression, or catch someone low HP, or gang up with a friend, and if any one of those things is true any sense of skillful competition flies out the window.

So the PVP in DST (and the other survival games you listed) will simply never be about skillful competition, which is at the heart of really good PVP games like LoL, Starcraft 2, Street Fighter 5, Battlefield 4, etc. There will always be a casual playerbase interested in PVP which doesn't require much skill, but that playerbase is a lot smaller than the people seeking meaningful skill-centric PVP.

(*Naturally combat isn't the only type of PVP which can exist.  An RTS named Offworld Trading Company recently released which involves no direct combat but instead is economic PVP waged against competing corporations on Mars.  Non-combat PVP is way more common in boardgames, where games like Vegas Showdown and Puerto Rico have players snatching up victory point opportunities before their opponents can.)

[Axehilt]

5 hours ago, artemiyME said:

Strongly disagree with @Axehilt and strongly agree with @Muttbutt with few notes

Well feel free to try to respond to my second post up there.  I broke down in great detail the reasons why DST doesn't and won't ever provide the same quality of skillful competition as in games where PVP was better designed.

It doesn't mean DST is bad.  DST is freakin' fantastic.  It just means DST's PVP will never be good.

[blowtorch]

I've honestly been waiting for that hunger games like mod since day one... I feel like it still can be balanced if done correctly lol

[artemiyME]

5 hours ago, Axehilt said:

Well feel free to try to respond to my second post up there.  I broke down in great detail the reasons why DST doesn't and won't ever provide the same quality of skillful competition as in games where PVP was better designed.

It doesn't mean DST is bad.  DST is freakin' fantastic.  It just means DST's PVP will never be good.

That is fine, I am not arguing with DST PVP being worse than other out there, but instead of denying a possibility of new game direction, I believe its worth investigating and tapping in new potential. 

[Axehilt]

On 5/18/2016 at 0:33 AM, artemiyME said:

That is fine, I am not arguing with DST PVP being worse than other out there, but instead of denying a possibility of new game direction, I believe its worth investigating and tapping in new potential. 

Yeah but you have to understand what you're asking for.

In order to create good PVP you would have to address each of the obstacles preventing the game from being about skillful competition.  Those problems include:

1. It's not going to be skillful competition if most of your time is spent NOT PVPing.
2. It's not going to be skillful competition if the competitive interaction (combat in this case) is a shallow game system.
3. It's not going to be skillful competition if players start a fight at different progression.
4. It's not going to be skillful competition if players start a fight with population imbalances (ganging up with 2+ players to kill fewer players.)

Those problems are numerous, time-consuming, and difficult to solve.

That's why it's using a hammer to screw in some screws. You can do it, but it's ridiculously inefficient. It's a bad idea.

Perhaps a better analogy (if you PVP a lot) is that it's like deliberately picking the absolute worst-balanced PVP character each time, and trying to make that character work.  Yeah you can do that, but it's the wrong choice and your life is going to be much harder because you've made a bad choice.

Like anything in life, in game design some decisions will simply be more efficient at achieving a goal ("delivering players fun" in this case) than others.  Effort spent on PVP in DST will always be less impactful and more wasteful than spending time improving PVE.  The game would essentially have to be redesigned from the ground up to change that fact.

[Monkeygh10]

On 18/05/2016 at 3:19 AM, blowtorch said:

I've honestly been waiting for that hunger games like mod since day one

me to... me too