Why on Default DST world is not good enough for multiple people

[XirmiX]

On default you would have decent amount of berry bushes, carrots, flint, twigs, grass and everything like that... for ONE person. While many people can explore and find different places where to gather up resources, the exploration will take time unless this is in Wilderness mode. To be honest, even in Wilderness mode this will be a problem, as you are not always going to spawn near a grassy biome full of basic resources. The idea is that you gather up enough to survive. Playing multiplayer with default on basic resources is like playing Single player while having those resources on less. This is why even decent players cannot play this properly. It's not about how big the map is, it's about how much resources in one place there is and Default is certainly not enough for it. I suggest that Klei changes the "Together Forever" Preset so that the world is not only bigger, but would also have Berry bushes, Carrots, Grass, Flint and Twigs set on more, otherwise it's gonna be a Starving winter for everyone who isn't a pro, and normal DS experience should be hard enough for a moderately good player to be able to survive pretty well as far as I see it.

[BeastNips]

I hate to be one of those forum parrots, but dying is a very important part of Don't Starve. It's where the fun actually is, but you often don't really discover this until the fun ends; when you become 'pro'.

 

To explain this further; Don't Starve (at least for me) was more about the journey than the destination. It was only when I was able to survive without any difficulty, kill every boss no problem, explore the caves and ruins like I owned the place; that I discovered that the fun had pretty much gone out of the game. This can be a similar situation when you master multiplayer, as it has far fewer things to worry about than single player.

 

There are definitely enough resources to survive relatively easily (once you're better at it), and one of the main attractions to the game is how you discover how to use these properly. Poor management of resources leads to deaths; by dying you learn how to better manage these resources. I do get where you're coming from; it can seem like an insurmountable task at first; but stick with it my friend! It will get more fun as you get better at the game. Just be wary, once you hit 'pro' the fun can really begin to decrease. Enjoy yourself while you still have a huge part of the game ahead of you.

 

'Pro': Quotes used as I didn't want to sound as though I consider myself a pro; I'm definitely not. I just consider myself at a level of DS that nothing much worries me about it.

 

Edit: If you'd like to to talk about anything you're particularly struggling with, ask away mate. Food for example.

[rezecib]

@XirmiX, You should see some of CptCalavera's games with viewers on his stream. It's definitely possible to survive and thrive with 6+ people right from the start. We all survived, and had a full base up by day 10. If most people in the game are productive, surviving with many people is pretty easy.

 

otherwise it's gonna be a Starving winter for everyone who isn't a pro

Isn't this how it's supposed to be? DS is supposed to be punishing. Once people get good enough to not starve in winter in single-player, they usually have a pretty good grasp of the game. 

[XirmiX]

I hate to be one of those forum parrots, but dying is a very important part of Don't Starve. It's where the fun actually is, but you often don't really discover this until the fun ends; when you become 'pro'.

 

To explain this further; Don't Starve (at least for me) was more about the journey than the destination. It was only when I was able to survive without any difficulty, kill every boss no problem, explore the caves and ruins like I owned the place; that I discovered that the fun had pretty much gone out of the game. This can be a similar situation when you master multiplayer, as it has far fewer things to worry about than single player.

 

There are definitely enough resources to survive relatively easily (once you're better at it), and one of the main attractions to the game is how you discover how to use these properly. Poor management of resources leads to deaths; by dying you learn how to better manage these resources. I do get where you're coming from; it can seem like an insurmountable task at first; but stick with it my friend! It will get more fun as you get better at the game. Just be wary, once you hit 'pro' the fun can really begin to decrease. Enjoy yourself while you still have a huge part of the game ahead of you.

 

'Pro': Quotes used as I didn't want to sound as though I consider myself a pro; I'm definitely not. I just consider myself at a level of DS that nothing much worries me about it.

 

Edit: If you'd like to to talk about anything you're particularly struggling with, ask away mate. Food for example.

It's not just for me, I'm talking about when you make a Default new server and allow anyone to enter. Many noobs are likely to join your world, but even if you're a pro you can't sustain even one of them properly. You can always challenge yourself already in the game by increasing the difficulty, but I think for the new comers and those who only know the general stuff about the game should have a better default. So I'm not talking about about myself here almost at all: I'm talking about those who first play the game or just started multiplayer.

 

 

 

@XirmiX, You should see some of CptCalavera's games with viewers on his stream. It's definitely possible to survive and thrive with 6+ people right from the start. We all survived, and had a full base up by day 10. If most people in the game are productive, surviving with many people is pretty easy.

 

 

 

Isn't this how it's supposed to be? DS is supposed to be punishing. Once people get good enough to not starve in winter in single-player, they usually have a pretty good grasp of the game. 

 

I'm talking about when most people in the game are NOT productive. This is why I'm suggesting this, and it's not big of a change really, just sets Default with a few basic resources to more and that's it. Some people don't have DS and have DST and they're new to the game, so yeah, probably not gonna survive first hound attack with a start like that and with skill "level 1".

 

[Lonestarr01]

What rezecib said, the world is plenty enough for 6 people if they know what they are doing. However, if you're talking about random people the come in, take some stuff, then leave, yeah thats a problem. Nothing to do with the world gen though. Have you ever turned carrots or anything on "more"? They appear EVERYWHERE, makes it wayyyy too easy to live.

[ryouryou]

I allow new players to join my servers all the time, they're always public, and we generally survive winter. But you need to take the initiative and ORGANIZE with people. You can't just say nothing and let everyone run around separately doing whatever, unless all players involved are experienced. Most new players want to learn, and if you give them an assignment or suggestions, they will carry it out. Not all of the tasks that are necessary to build and survive are very hard, someone can be in charge of checking traps, replanting farms, etc, someone can spend the day getting pig friends and chopping wood, if they don't know how to do these things, you tell them.

From my experience, one "pro" player can carry about 1-2 players that don't do as much, or more, if circumstances are fortuitous. My servers are usually public, open to 6, and I have 1 friend with me. The two of us can set up the base to sustain any number of people. Setting up the food sources makes them self-sustaining, and while a less-experienced player may not be able to herd a koelephant into a pen, farm manure, set up farms, get reeds without dying, make a birdcage, set up several bee boxes, replant butterflies, move a spider den, plant lureplants on rocky turf, construct pig houses, and move berry bushes all by themselves (we can!), they can certainly maintain those structures after they've been set up.

It seems like the hard part of the game for you is the social part, which, I get. It's hard to get strangers to cooperate. But host your own server, and be the boss. If someone won't cooperate, get rid of them. If even 1-2 of the people on the server are experienced, the game is dramatically easier than default Don't Starve. Oh, and find spiders as soon as you can after starting. Plan for the worst. 

I would actually consider the game to be so easy that having fun teaching newer players, and the slight difficulty they bring, is the most fun part of the game for me right now, while it is missing endgame goals like caves and RoG giants.

[Mysanthil]

Many noobs are likely to join your world, but even if you're a pro you can't sustain even one of them properly. 

 

I'm talking about when most people in the game are NOT productive. 

 

So, you want DST to be balanced towards the noobs? Do you think noobs should be able to survive winter, even if they don't know how to make a winter hat or a meatball?

 

That's not Don't Starve works. How long did it take you to figure out how to survive your first winter in single player? Why should this learning process be easier in muliplayer? Players who can't figure out how to contribute a little don't deserve to live past winter. That's just the basics of the type of game style Don't Starve is part of.

 

Edit: "Winter" above replaceable with any other challenge in DST (Deerclops, hounds, night, hunger, sanity, etc.)

[DarkXero]

Some people don't have DS and have DST and they're new to the game, so yeah, probably not gonna survive first hound attack with a start like that and with skill "level 1".

 

Working as intended.

People being stupid and non productive = death for themselves.

 

Feed yourself first, then others. If you can't, you suck. If they can't, they suck. If they suck, they die.

 

And I can feed 6 people by myself: get on my level and fight me at PAX.

[XirmiX]

So, you want DST to be balanced towards the noobs? Do you think noobs should be able to survive winter, even if they don't know how to make a winter hat or a meatball?

 

That's not Don't Starve works. How long did it take you to figure out how to survive your first winter in single player? Why should this learning process be easier in muliplayer? Players who can't figure out how to contribute a little don't deserve to live past winter. That's just the basics of the type of game style Don't Starve is part of.

 

Edit: "Winter" above replaceable with any other challenge in DST (Deerclops, hounds, night, hunger, sanity, etc.)

Not talking about Winter. Players who are even genuine players could barely get over their first hound attack in my opinion. Winter isn't something I'm including here. Resources on more or Default, the Winter will be brutal to anyone who doesn't know that hunting with dirt piles, killing spiders and shaving/killing beefalo is vital! That is where pros come in. But genuine players should be some that can survive without starving and can overcome hound attacks. Noobs would probably be learning how to make an axe first!

 

 

Working as intended.

People being stupid and non productive = death for themselves.

 

Feed yourself first, then others. If you can't, you suck. If they can't, they suck. If they suck, they die.

 

And I can feed 6 people by myself: get on my level and fight me at PAX.

 

If they die, I lose sanity. If I lose sanity I die eventually. Not even pros can handle insanity for too long and since there are multiple players in one place often, then there will be more shadow monsters as well. With people spreading around the world looking for resources is not working together. It's like SP all over again, like I probably mentioned before somewhere...

[DarkXero]

Play Endless or kick out idiots. And the sanity debuffs have a max, of 3 dead players.

 

Play Wendy, prototype things, use flowers, taffies, green mushrooms, tams, top hats, straw rolls, tents.

 

You can even download that mod for characters and play Maxwell.

 

But what can I say, for any natural n, (n)pro(2n)me.

[ryouryou]

But Don't Starve's main method of teaching the player is to kill them. It's an uncompromising wilderness survival game. 


It's your choice. The players on your server can learn "Hey, hounds are scary, we should make log suits before they come the first time!" by having you tell them, or by experiencing it and dying. The game provides the latter, you can provide the former if you choose. If you don't choose to, you can't complain about the game doing it for them.

The first wave of hounds is not hard, you can survive easily unarmored and hitting them with an axe. Maybe you should help your teammates?

[tetrified]

On default you would have decent amount of berry bushes, carrots, flint, twigs, grass and everything like that... for ONE person. While many people can explore and find different places where to gather up resources, the exploration will take time unless this is in Wilderness mode. To be honest, even in Wilderness mode this will be a problem, as you are not always going to spawn near a grassy biome full of basic resources. The idea is that you gather up enough to survive. Playing multiplayer with default on basic resources is like playing Single player while having those resources on less. This is why even decent players cannot play this properly. It's not about how big the map is, it's about how much resources in one place there is and Default is certainly not enough for it. I suggest that Klei changes the "Together Forever" Preset so that the world is not only bigger, but would also have Berry bushes, Carrots, Grass, Flint and Twigs set on more, otherwise it's gonna be a Starving winter for everyone who isn't a pro, and normal DS experience should be hard enough for a moderately good player to be able to survive pretty well as far as I see it.

 

Why does this topic show up every other day? half of the information that gets spewed in these threads is just plain false.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

 

A single person with 100-200 hours in DS can carry at least 4 people with 10-30 hours in DST. 3-6 people with 10-40 hours each can easily survive through the first winter, as long as they have any idea what they're doing, and tasks are delegated properly (example: one person grabs rocks, one person grabs manure and rabbits, one person chops wood, whoever finishes their task first gets saplings/tufts, once that task is finished you do the next thing on the list, etc., etc., etc.)

 

You couldn't turtle in your base with chester in the base game and you can't turtle in your base with your friends in DST. I don't know why "together" in the title makes people think the game would be any easier, but it's not. Period.

 

EDIT

If you really want to make yourself an easymode world, where you can just turtle in your base forever, either make a custom preset with a larger world and Berry bushes, Carrots, Grass, Flint and Twigs set on more, or feel free to use my guide and make a few custom rooms/tasks yourself.

[XirmiX]

Why does this topic show up every other day? half of the information that gets spewed in these threads is just plain false.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

 

A single person with 100-200 hours in DS can carry at least 4 people with 10-30 hours in DST. 3-6 people with 10-40 hours each can easily survive through the first winter, as long as they have any idea what they're doing, and tasks are delegated properly (example: one person grabs rocks, one person grabs manure and rabbits, one person chops wood, whoever finishes their task first gets saplings/tufts, once that task is finished you do the next thing on the list, etc., etc., etc.)

 

You couldn't turtle in your base with chester in the base game and you can't turtle in your base with your friends in DST. I don't know why "together" in the title makes people think the game would be any easier, but it's not. Period.

 

EDIT

If you really want to make yourself an easymode world, where you can just turtle in your base forever, either make a custom preset with a larger world and Berry bushes, Carrots, Grass, Flint and Twigs set on more, or feel free to use my guide and make a few custom rooms/tasks yourself.

Ehh, I give up. The idea was to make the difficulty for multiple players just as difficult as it would be in SP as with Default stuff it is harder than normally for people to survive, but whatever. It was just a simple suggestion, no need for a big debate on it, really...

 

But thatnks, your guide might come in handy! I'm planning to make some Presets in future for a mod...

[saltychipmunk]

the resource complaint is really only an issue if for some reason all the players try to stick together  in one  tight ball of influence in which they waste time competing for the same items.

 

this can be considered a newb practice. basically it is an obstical you as a new player must adapt too. If you talk to anyone who has tried advanture mode  most successful players wont even settle down for the first 3 - 6 days of the game and will spend  those days and those nights foraging and exploring.

 

hell when i host a server or play with friends i bluntly tell them to go in another direction for the first few days. That is simply something that must be done.  this is a multiplyer game streched over the frame work of an argubaly well crafted and fine tuned single player experience.

 

That means there will still be things in the game that most certainly can be accomplished better  by going it solo.  Foraging at the start is the definitive example of this.

 

group play is when you have done the leg work to create a concentration of resources ... usually when you find beefalo, a pig village/ pig king and/ or have aquired  20+ of the berry bushes saplings and grass to plant in a centralized location.

[tetrified]

the resource complaint is really only an issue if for some reason all the players try to stick together  in one  tight ball of influence in which they waste time competing for the same items.

 

this can be considered a newb practice. basically it is an obstical you as a new player must adapt too. If you talk to anyone who has tried advanture mode  most successful players wont even settle down for the first 3 - 6 days of the game and will spend  those days and those nights foraging and exploring.

 

People actually do this? No wonder we're getting all these threads, constantly. Do they think they have to have 6 players on their screen constantly or something?

[saltychipmunk]

People actually do this? No wonder we're getting all these threads, constantly. Do they think they have to have 6 players on their screen constantly or something?

 

Well it is not hard to see how this concept would be lost on people especially those who did not buy the origional dont starve and are just starting the experience with a fresh mind.

 

its called dont starve *together* the title alone implies people working close together ... you can even argue it deliberatly missleads players into bad practices (which can be a good or bad thing depending on your view of what the core experience of the game should be).

 

not only that a huge amount of other survival games are much more accomidating about having bunches of people together.

 

in rust being in a group from the outset is an entierly more pleasent experience as it negates one of the lamest pit falls of the early game  dickish naked dudes with like a spear or hammer getting the jump on other naked dudes  to take advanatage of the bleed out mechanic to get easy loots.

 

in 7d2d a massive part of early game is getting to your mates

 

and one can name bunches of other coop experiences that center around being in tight groups to survive horrors which  demolish lone players.

 

you can even say it is engrained. much in the same way WASD is our movment and  the presence of ADS and parkour mechanics of a sort are expected in modern fps games

[tetrified]

Well it is not hard to see how this concept would be lost on people especially those who did not buy the origional dont starve and are just starting the experience with a fresh mind.

 

its called dont starve *together* the title alone implies people working close together ... you can even argue it deliberatly missleads players into bad practices (which can be a good or bad thing depending on your view of what the core experience of the game should be).

 

Maybe it should be called don't starve separately so that people can get the point faster

 

I dunno, though, for some reason my first thought when I started playing with my girlfriend was "you go south, I'll go north, and we'll meet back up when we find a good place to settle." I don't know why, but I immediately thought "great, two players, now we can explore the area twice as fast" as opposed to "must stick as close to friends as possible"

 

I just trusted her to find a good spot, and she trusted me to find a good spot, That's just what "together" meant to me I guess..

[saltychipmunk]

Yeah thats what i do too, mostly because when i started dont starve for the first time waaaaay back in the beta days  i found that it was unessisary to make a camp since the torch would carry you through  the night and  there was enough carrots to last days without cooking.

 

But I also found that alot of my really new freinds were clingy to me.  which can be a really really bad thing in dont starve despite it being a really really good idea in other games.

 

 

to the point where i think it is actually a good idea to play dst or ds solo for a good bit ... enough to learn the ropes of and grasp the fundamentals before doing group play.

 

just so you stumble through the game as god intended without having a walking cheat sheet spoil everything for you

[Asparagus]

I suggest that Klei changes the "Together Forever" Preset so that the world is not only bigger, but would also have Berry bushes, Carrots, Grass, Flint and Twigs set on more, otherwise it's gonna be a Starving winter for everyone who isn't a pro, and normal DS experience should be hard enough for a moderately good player to be able to survive pretty well as far as I see it.

 

Actually, the default world seems to be adjusted to 2 players max with all the resources meant to fully sustain 2 players without trouble (at least based on the experiment I did playing with a different number of players)... now if you want to have an appropriate amount of food (berries, carrots, meat producing animals) you just have to set the world size to "Huge".

 

By doing this, other resources will increase in number in proportion to the land size... more players need more land... hope this helps. 

[XirmiX]

Actually, the default world seems to be adjusted to 2 players max with all the resources meant to fully sustain 2 players without trouble (at least based on the experiment I did playing with a different number of players)... now if you want to have an appropriate amount of food (berries, carrots, meat producing animals) you just have to set the world size to "Huge".

 

By doing this, other resources will increase in number in proportion to the land size... more players need more land... hope this helps. 

Yes, but... it takes time to get to other places, unless you're playing Wilderness. And getting to a certain place where to collect resources will be time it would take for someone to already get basics resources where they spawned at. You don't see people going far away from the spawn to collect supplies in SP as soon as they start now do you? They collect basics at the beginning. If more than one person collects basics near the spawn, there won't be enough for them to survive even 2 or 3 nights! Exploration is needed, but it's vital to have basic resources available for everyone at the beginning. That's why setting them to more is needed and that's why going around somewhere else for resources won't do it. People need to spread and look for stuff, yes, but at the beginning you need basics asap. If, say you wanted to one day support 64 players or probably even just 32, you'd need everything on lots and make the world huge, even if you went all Wilderness mode. Else either you all will slowly go down from lack of resources or some of you will have enough and others will just quickly die.

[saltychipmunk]

you can survive 1.5 days without eating anything.

you only need 2 grass and 2 twigs for a torch every night until the early start of winter (3 black bars)

 

assumming you are spending your time properly getting away from people  you should be in the clear before dusk on day 1.

 

that is a pretty large buffer to play with and a pretty low survival requirement.

 

Im guessing you still stay with your mates during those days in which case that is your fault.  if you even see another character  on your screen after day 1 and before day 4  you did something  very wrong.

 

 

 

I have been on 5 player teams that had a sustainable base by day 7 with  over 20 the 3 essentails  planted in blobs around theri base (twigs, grass, bushes). 

 

They did fine and they were using the generic presets of the game.

 

I am struggling to figure out how you are having such difficulty .

[BeastNips]

Maybe it should be called don't starve separately so that people can get the point faster

I dunno, though, for some reason my first thought when I started playing with my girlfriend was "you go south, I'll go north, and we'll meet back up when we find a good place to settle." I don't know why, but I immediately thought "great, two players, now we can explore the area twice as fast" as opposed to "must stick as close to friends as possible"

I just trusted her to find a good spot, and she trusted me to find a good spot, That's just what "together" meant to me I guess..

Maybe the portal in survival was a bad idea? Maybe starting spread out like in Wilderness (I think) should be the default?

That way the solo foraging/exploring becomes passive to the main goal of finding your friends. It wouldn't need to be explained to people as it would be their only option.

[XirmiX]

Maybe the portal in survival was a bad idea? Maybe starting spread out like in Wilderness (I think) should be the default?

That way the solo foraging/exploring becomes passive to the main goal of finding your friends. It wouldn't need to be explained to people as it would be their only option.

Hmm... May be that way multiple bases would be built too! However, Wilderness was really built in for PvP reasons as far as I know.

[BeastNips]

I usually play a private server, but when we open it up we get multiple bases everywhere anyway (we mod for a higher player number). They make great outposts and help players which are new to the server (as we tend not to give away the main base location to just anyone initially).

 

I understand that the random spawn was designed for PvP, I just think it may not be a bad idea to use it as the default in PvE servers too. Maybe with a radius limit from the centre of the map so players are spread out just enough that they have enough of their own starting resources, but not so much that they won't find each other in the first 10 days or so.

 

Obviously this wouldn't be that simple, because each player would need to spawn in a friendly starting biome. But, I think the basic principle is sound. The idea is that your initial goal (after getting the basics to survive the night/first few days) is to find the other players; map exploration and splitting up becomes a bi-product of this rather than something players need to actively engage in.

 

I agree that multiplayer is a huge hindrance to newer players; something you covered in your initial post XirmiX. Newer players that die trying to support themselves and others, can often be players that would have scraped by in single player because of more resources. However, I don't think this is a balancing issue; I think this is an issue of the game not actively encouraging a certain style of play. And why should it? The devs don't want to influence game play anymore than absolutely necessary, but I think a tiny push now and then may do wonders to improve the experience of newer players. So, I suggest players spawning more spread out.

 

 

 

[Asparagus]

Yes, but... it takes time to get to other places, unless you're playing Wilderness. And getting to a certain place where to collect resources will be time it would take for someone to already get basics resources where they spawned at. You don't see people going far away from the spawn to collect supplies in SP as soon as they start now do you? They collect basics at the beginning. If more than one person collects basics near the spawn, there won't be enough for them to survive even 2 or 3 nights! Exploration is needed, but it's vital to have basic resources available for everyone at the beginning. That's why setting them to more is needed and that's why going around somewhere else for resources won't do it. People need to spread and look for stuff, yes, but at the beginning you need basics asap. If, say you wanted to one day support 64 players or probably even just 32, you'd need everything on lots and make the world huge, even if you went all Wilderness mode. Else either you all will slowly go down from lack of resources or some of you will have enough and others will just quickly die.

 

(warning, this is going to be long...)

 

 

 

(I'm not trying to sound all high and mighty and this is not directed... directly at you, you could very well be more experienced than me and so I'm just saying this to aid whomever is reading this thread i guess)

 

Well... it does all come down to skill, I'm afraid... if the host is a decent or well-experienced player, then this shouldn't be much of a problem... but like as you said, initial resources are essential but what good will it do to just hang around the spawn area for resources...

 

I have joined servers that go on a won ton berry bush digging spree without even having beefalo around to get poop from... not only does it halt berry production by the bushes, you'll go hungry for it as well! so before you dig up stuff, make sure you can poop on them... uh... *cough O_O 

 

64 players!! Wow, you have a good computer and connection! (that's a lot of Wilsons! also, wouldn't it lag a lot?)

 

maybe start off with an initial group of oh, let's say 4, and those 4 will set the world up... create bases, farms... food production is essential and foraging is a bit unreliable at times, especially with more players... I suggest you spend at least 10 days exploring and gathering resources as you go along... maybe split up in 4 different directions so you can each have all the resources you can encounter without sharing...

 

don't be afraid to set up science machines to upgrade yourselves... convene in the portal and agree on a place to settle...

 

if you find a koalefant track, track it, chase it with you to where you want to set up shop, collect poop, it is your best friend...

 

if a friend happens upon a meteor field or rocky biome, have them gather as much rocks as they can carry to make your level 2 farms (this also applies to other resources such as grass, twigs and reeds...)

 

also collect seeds... they'r good for food (at least 20 toasted seeds can account for one meal with 4.5 hunger each) and crops

 

at the place where you want to set up your base, start making living quarters with chests and research labs, and a screen away, make your farm... put the koalefant in a pen and gather the poop it periodically... excretes, search for more koalefants for meat and/or poop... also for vests...

 

hunt for tallbirds, thy're a good source of meat and the non perishable egg (while not cooked) can be used for emergencies...

(I'm sorry @Weirdobob, but the player must survive... it's them or us... I'm so sorry    I will make sure the friends and families of the hunted tallbirds are taken care of, with healthcare and college and every thing... *sob)

 

if you practice this enough, you can make a fully sustainable base before winter...

 

after this, you can accomodate enough players, expanding farms and meat production from spiders and werepigs (that are regular pigs that have been fed 4 monster meat and will yield 2 big meat and 1 pig skin when killed)

 

 

beefalo... beeboxes... drying racks...

 

Sorry for the long and winded post...