Not quite getting this yet with a bit of wtf added...

[obliviondoll]

If you play with Deckard you will never run into that problem... A soon as there is a camera or a guard, you just have to cloak, go to a safe location, pass your turns until it is ready again, rinse and repeat.

 

This isn't a bad idea, and I would like to have a bit of influence over the alarm level too, but in the current state of the game, taking your idea and implementing right now give every player choosing Deckard 100% map discovery in every level even before the alarm starts.

 

And if there isn't a safe location within one move distance?

 

What if the "safe" location has a guard patrolling through it?

 

How do you complete the mission you're there to complete?

 

How do you get through a door with a stationary guard watching it?

 

How do you get Deckard past a stationary armoured guard when there are cover objects on both sides narrowing it down to that one tile you have to cross?

 

As soon as a guard sees a door open or hears a noise, the alarm level starts raising. As soon as you hack something to make it accessible, the alarm level starts raising. Interacting with objects breaks your cloak, revealing you to the enemies you're using it to hide from.

 

And most importantly, that means you can get Deckard to the exit (but not necessarily, and definitely not to the objective as well), but what about your other agent(s)? Leave them behind? Have fun with that.

 

0 profit, 0 new unlocks, 0 additional funds, and you're giving up an agent to do it. Maybe if they make cloak stealing work without breaking cloak, you can get a little bit of money without being detected or raising the alarm. But there are still situations that cloaking won't let you pass. And actually completing objectives is one of those situations.

[Selenthys]

 

And most importantly, that means you can get Deckard to the exit (but not necessarily, and definitely not to the objective as well), but what about your other agent(s)? Leave them behind? Have fun with that.

 

0 profit, 0 new unlocks, 0 additional funds, and you're giving up an agent to do it. Maybe if they make cloak stealing work without breaking cloak, you can get a little bit of money without being detected or raising the alarm. But there are still situations that cloaking won't let you pass. And actually completing objectives is one of those situations.

 

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that in most cases, you could go and explore the whole map before even starting the alarm.

 

Once the whole map is discovered, you can then execute a perfect plan for the objective and escape where you know every variable in place in each situation, which really makes the game more easy than having to go blind through rooms when searching for the objective and exit.

 

Basically, I was saying in this case : take Deckard first to explore the whole map, then play through it with all cards already in hand.

 

Of course the occasional guard next to a door could start the timer, but this isn't the case in most rooms.

[Shelf]

This would mean that the entire first few minutes of a mission is simple recon and nothing else, and the power drip - parasite combo would be OP. Simply wait until you have 20 energy and then infect the whole system at once, in two turns everything is yours.

 

Basically I would find playing without the constant 1 alarm / round very boring.

To be honest the fact that power transfers between missions has led me to often ending 4-5 turns in the elevator with Fusion to make sure I have 20 at the start of the next, is this intentional or is there a plan to make every level start at 10, like in the first mission?

[Harmor]

To me, if it stays unchanged as it is right now is just simply completely out of whack. The missions with more guards than the starter ones usually spawned me in very close confines, with guards being added as the timer progresses on and it's too much based on luck if you get a decent enough map created for you. I mean, how many times (why does an agency not have the map for a building they infiltrate? ^^) can one do rinse/repeat with this til it gets boring or just simply too frustrating.

 

I checked for the exit in the completely wrong direction and OFC there is only one way to the elevator that is guarded by several guys. This happens a lot - maybe I just got unlucky but it's nothing but frustrating.

 

And the idea of the whole game design is something I can't grasp. So you have a stealth based game with every single character being a crackshot with pistols, guns with a max of 2 clips, alarms rising when you don't even move and I am beginning to think endless mode, aka try to get as far as possible, will be the be all end all once you beat the 72 hour story mode. 

 

I would think there should be way to purchase stuff while not on a mission too - or this is the most inept and cheap secret agency of gaming history? The only way to acquire more guys for your squad is to rescue them? Remember how this was done in the original Jagged Alliance games? How about that! This and much more makes me kinda think Klei accidentally designed a turn based strategy game around a core that is not exactly anything what turn based strategy is made of. 

 

Edit: I'm also starting to wonder if the entire genre of rogue light or whatever isn't dev groups trying to troll players (yes I am somewhat kidding ofc). Why delete savegames? Why do I have to start over again? Sure, there'll be more content in the game etc, but why not make this an optional mode like for example Diablo did it? Yes I realize I get points towards unlocking stuff, but once you're there then what? That's my whole point - there are only so many times I am willing to start from scratch - and yes I know I can cheat and I can copy the save to some other location. But is it really necessary having to do that? Fact is, I'm a fan of FTL for example - but the whole permadeath rogue like light thing doesn't bother me in that game because a playthrough is short enough not to be bothered by it. 

 

But in a TBS game where you could fully control an entire organization of secret agents with funds, with a proper base maybe, getting funds through missions etc then upgrading your agents and gear outside of missions - that's what TBS games like XCom EU, the original XCom games, Jagged Alliance and the list goes on and on are made of. I think I said this before but to me, making Invisible Inc the way it is designed now is simply put making it a lesser game in comparison to those.

 

More edit: I realize my post reads like I am seriously hacked off - well doh, right now it seems to me I wasted 15,99€. Yeah, I should have gotten more info prior to buying the game but oh well, stuff happens - I just thought this was gonna be a TBS game like I've played them for years and years. Turns out it's a game that gives you points to unlock characters and what not with every playthrough til you finally unlock endless mode - that it? I've got all four characters available right now to play with, and endless mode doesn't seem too attractive to me I have to say cause in essence it's more of the same, just with a variety of guys and girls to choose from.

 

Will the game get a proper story you can save (without the save being deleted)? To be honest, permadeath is of no concern to me if there were FAR more characters to choose from, like say for example (again) like Jagged Alliance did it and you could just keep playing on. I've read mention of XCom EU being one of the influences for this game - realize what I'm getting at? The base, aquiring new troopers, all that stuff? I'd understand game over and save wipe perhaps when you lack the funds to purchase new agents outside of missions if that was possible, np with that. After all you ran your agency into the ground. But the way it works right now it is kinda too much like FTL and too little like a proper turn based strategy game. While I said I like FTL, Invislbe Inc. has the potential to be so much more than that but this whole rogue light thing kinda ruins it all for me. 

 

I am really sorry if I offend anybody, and this is likely based upon a few more experiences with the game as I just ended a session (and finally uninstalled), but I sure hope this isn't the future of TBS gaming. Being more or less forced to RUSH in turn based combat with it being turned into a secret agent style FTL game - seriously?

[Shelf]

@Harmor

You've already been told this is early-access. You've been told this is not the final product, if you've watched the dev cast,(I'm sure you have spent the time considering the time you've spend in this thread) then you know they plan on changing and adding lots of things, and that the final product will not be a 72 hour in-game run. If you haven't, I highly recommend you do, as many of your quarrels are answered during the hour video.

 

Here's a Link to it: http://www.twitch.tv/kleientertainment/b/560541436

 

I am really sorry if I offend you, but I'm confident in saying Klei's intention was not to make a sequel to one of the games you hold as the bar, and rather to make their own game. If you've truly already given up on this alpha game, I would recommend you spend your time playing one of the games you do enjoy as opposed to hopping on the Invisible Inc. forums to complain.

[Harmor]

Ofc you don't offend me - and I shall check that video later. And sure as hell I'm not expecting a sequel to the games I mentioned, but simply put, TBS is my favorite genre and that's why I've given up for the time being because as it is right now, it's like I said, turn based just simply slapped to a rogue like game. 

 

But I DO think paying 15 and change for a product that to me isn't at all what turn based strategy is all about gives me a valid reason to speak up about what I dislike about the direction of the game. As it is though, yes, I'm absolutely no twitch regular and will, as I said, check that video out. 

[FateINV]

I think making it such that the first use of incognita (including using drip or fusion or even simply accessing incognita) trigger the start of the alarm will be good. Of course any other alert will also trigger it. There is not much you can do without using incognita. I think its a fair compromise.

[anhalibut]

Re: Alarm

 

At the basic level, this kind of thing does often just boil down to taste, but let me see if I can give you some insight into why we made the alarm go up each turn the way we did. 

 

<snip>

 

Thanks for the very thorough explanation of the alarm system. 

 

The alarm starting on the very first turn really irritated me, but I adjusted.  Your explanation makes a lot of sense, and now that I've had a couple of days to play the game, I like the challenge the alarm adds to the game.

 

My favorite mission so far was trying to navigate an agent to the elevator when the alarm was at level 6 and all guards were patrolling.  Very tense and nerve wracking.  I came close to finishing but ultimately failed that mission, but it was still fun.

[Harmor]

Okay so, now that I have watched the twitch video (thanks again for the link) I do understand the dev's intentions a little better. I also really like the difficulty settings thing they are planning - you guys please understand I don't really HATE this game you know, I also realize it's early access but it's just that atm, the immense rush play kind of puts me off cause I'd like the pace to be a bit more in line with regular turn based games. Now, with those difficulty levels being added eventually (I'd just like the alarm levels being 'smaller' as they raise up, giving players more time before really bad stuff happens for example), it'l surely help with getting more players with various playstyles into this game. 

 

I didn't notice anything being mentioned about changing the 72 hours campaign to a more indepth one (which isn't endless mode) eventually though, however I may just have missed it. What I'd really like to see added is an outside of missions possibility to purchase stuff for your agents though, hopefully that'll make it in (also didn't hear that being mentioned in the vid). On a sidenote, getting your agents out alive when the alarm level is at 6 IS definitely a rush despite the fact I don't like to be rushed in TBS games ^^...

 

But sure, ofc this is early access and quite a few months away from version 1.0 so things will very likely turn out well enough. As it is right now, I DO like the game and it's intense and everything, it just could do with a few more options for different playstyles like I said. Since that seems to be adressed, most of my worries for the game are now null and void. And oh, for the love of God, make erasing savegames an option in the difficulty settings and not a default thing. 

[Shelf]

That's a great point to bring up. I know dev's browse through these forums quite a bit and one has already touched upon this thread. I think being able to start the game with options for different difficulties would be amazing. Perhaps an easier difficulty would have something like 7 bars before the alarm jumps to the next level.

 

denying savegames however is a key element of rogue-likes. As much as you might hate it, it's sort of part of the core element. If you do hate it that much you'll need to learn to manipulate the files. Just by looking at Klei's previous roguelike "Don't Starve" I doubt they would make the option for the game to be roguelike similar to the different modes in something like Path of Exile or D3.

[vicwarrior]

I don't think the alarm should start ticking right off the start, maybe it should start going after a guard spots one of your agents, wakes up after getting knocked out,upon their death, or when your hacking is noticed.

 

Your hacking could be noticed in multiple ways, first off there could be a room with a system administrator that every turns checks 1 or multiple devices if they are hacked and if they are he starts the alarm ticking.

 

Another way would be to have a guard or two in each level that instead of patrolling or being stationary he goes around the map checking safes nanoprinters and all that to check if they have hacked.

 

The game should reward for thinking trought each move, being stealthy and quick, not punish you, specially with the rather quirky level generation.

[yossarian]

I wonder how many of these complaints would be avoided if Klei had just made a more explicit narrative call-out for why the alarm is going up from turn one.

 

It's a pretty clear design imperative that forces the player into making interesting choices sooner, and Klei have done a great job of explaining why. The alarm system is key to the game right now, and I'd be worried for the soul of the game if it was changed.

[the truthseeker]

 

To be honest the fact that power transfers between missions has led me to often ending 4-5 turns in the elevator with Fusion to make sure I have 20 at the start of the next, is this intentional or is there a plan to make every level start at 10, like in the first mission?

That is one of the things we users are debating if it should or shouldn't happen.  The concept was "continue with what you have accomplished or failed with" but the energy may or may not be altered later. 

 

 

Everybody weigh in on this to make sure the general consensus is done the way we players want to! 

 

 

That other topic...too hot to touch! (So I'll just step back and let people talk it out for a bit, seeing if Klei wants to further weigh in or not.) 

 

[obliviondoll]

I just had a new idea on the alarm topic. It requires 3 changes to the current mechanics in order to work.

 

1. Make Incognita's "Power Drip" ability a toggle action. You can turn it on or off as required.

2. Alarm counter only rises when you perform an action that alerts the security network. (see below)

3. Certain actions can REDUCE alarm level instead of raising it. (see below)

 

A few things on point 2:

 

Guards wear heart monitors which are linked to the network. When you knock a guard out, there's a small spike in their heartrate which will be detected as an anomaly by the network. The augment which allows you to ignore heart monitors when killing guards could potentially circumvent this, but a kill would still count for one point on the alarm counter. The reason could be that the kill destroys the heart monitor, and as with anything else, the network would register a loss of contact.

 

Similarly, when you alert a guard, their heartrate would fluctuate, if only slightly. This would result in a flag being raised for anything from a full sighting of an agent to merely the sound of footsteps or a door seeming to move by itself. If they're only investigating, this could trigger as a one-time event for that guard. Once the guard is hunting, however, this would mean a constant counting-up every turn.

 

On the hacking side, any action by Incognita would trigger an "intrusion detected" flag. Power drip, fusion, or any removal of a firewall. This would give parasite the added bonus of NOT triggering the hack flag on the turn it's placed. Power drip and fusion should only trigger the flag on turns when they're actively providing power to the player.

 

With the guard alerts and the hacking events, these should be a single "flagged" item. No matter how much power you gain from Incognita's programs, and no matter how many firewalls you breach, you will only gain one point on the alarm counter per turn. In the same way, no matter how many guards you trigger to investigate or hunt, this should only trigger as a single "guard anomaly" in the system.

 

A few things on point 3:

 

With the changes described above, there's a good chance you'll be getting 2 points of alarm level every turn, which is pretty harsh. As such, there need to be more ways to reduce your alarm level. A good way to do this, in my opinion, would be to have two different types of consoles.

 

The same total number of consoles should appear as what we see now, but there's a random chance of them being "communication" or "security" consoles. There are frequently rooms with multiple consoles in them, guaranteeing one of each type in this instance would be a good step.

 

When hacking a console, you should be able to choose to increase Incognita's power OR to reduce the alarm level. Using a security console would give less power, but a larger decrease to your alarm level, while communication consoles are the reverse. They wouldn't need unique graphics or labels, just the tooltip showing both the alarm -X and power +Y values, and you choose which one you want to go for. If you get a guard on line while hacking a console to reduce alarm level, bribing them could stack for an additional alarm reduction, although maybe alarm hacks should gain a smaller benefit in this instance.

[GoldenBoy99]

 

 

That is one of the things we users are debating if it should or shouldn't happen.  The concept was "continue with what you have accomplished or failed with" but the energy may or may not be altered later. 

 

 

Everybody weigh in on this to make sure the general consensus is done the way we players want to! 

 

 

That other topic...too hot to touch! (So I'll just step back and let people talk it out for a bit, seeing if Klei wants to further weigh in or not.) 

 

 

I just finished mission 4 and so far my PWR has never dipped below 10. I should probably do some more missions first but so far I haven't been using any strategy when it comes to Incognita.

[TheCalcutec]

I wonder how many of these complaints would be avoided if Klei had just made a more explicit narrative call-out for why the alarm is going up from turn one.

 

It's a pretty clear design imperative that forces the player into making interesting choices sooner, and Klei have done a great job of explaining why. The alarm system is key to the game right now, and I'd be worried for the soul of the game if it was changed.

 

If you dig through the old forum archives (or catch any of the dev streams from around this time last year), they totally do give an explicit reason for why the alarm goes up, but I guess it doesn't actually get explained anywhere in story mode as it stands. Just like the player has the Incognita computer system, corporations have their own security-focused supercomputers which are slowly narrowing in on the team's location elsewhere in the building. Each turn represents the opposition's security system confirming where the team isn't, and slowly diverting more attention to the floor they are at.

 

Now, if someone at Klei can figure out how to say that briefly and with a lot of flavour, maybe we'll get less confusion about this one!

[PorkSoda86]

Re: Alarm

 

That said, I agree with you that we could do a better job justifying the alarm within the context of the world. The current idea is that the corporations are tracking your use of Incognita and slowly pinpointing you as you stay longer in their buildings, but that's not being communicated adequately at the moment.

 

I agree that this definitely needs to be explained within the story.  It's a great explanation, and it got me thinking... what if the alarm system was modified so that it increases more quickly the more a player uses Incognita?  I think it makes logical sense -- if the corporations are tracking the agents' hacking systems, using those systems more should make them easier to track.  Conversely, using them less would make the agents more difficult to track.

 

Here's an idea: the current alarm levels each have five bars before advancing to the next level, increasing by one bar each turn.  What if, instead, there were TEN bars per alarm level?  They could still go up by one bar each turn (maybe they can detect a faint signal even when it's not in use), unless the player starts going crazy using Incognita abilities... then they could go up more quickly, maybe two, three, even four bars per turn.  If a player uses more than X amount of power in a single turn, or uses more than Y number of Incognita abilities, or breaks through Z firewalls in quick succession... then the alarm advances more quickly for a few turns.  Could definitely create some interesting trade-offs.  I've often found myself simply throwing out four or five parasites in a single turn, even on targets that I don't necessarily need to hack, just to get rid of excess power before hijacking a console.  It might be more interesting to have to pick and choose hacking targets more carefully.

 

Just tossing some thoughts out there before I head to bed.  I think the risk vs. reward aspect of this game is done AMAZINGLY well so far, and I'd love to see more opportunities for these tense situations to arise.  Keep it up, guys!