？？？？？

[xzmm]

Why not add a waterproof design to the robot to make up for its shortcomings as a human, just like Wu Di?

[-Nick-]

Because its a downside, and well WX isnt a human.

[Creatorofswamps]

I don't want the Woody story to repeat itself, the character must have at least one flaw(Playing with a disadvantage is more interesting and diverse than when the character is "Wilson with a bunch of privileges")

Edited yesterday at 08:50 AM by Creatorofswamps

[Kvetevk]

1 hour ago, Creatorofswamps said:

I don't want the Woody story to repeat itself, the character must have at least one flaw(Playing with a disadvantage is more interesting and diverse than when the character is "Wilson with a bunch of privileges")

Some characters already have almost no flaws: Woodie, Willow, Wurt, Wortox, Wolfgang and Wilson.

Either they have a flaw that is fixed by their mechanic or it's fixed by their skill tree.

Edited yesterday at 10:13 AM by Kvetevk

[cropo]

Everyone always brings up Woodie but Woodie has a flaw that is tied to a core gameplay loop that was newly introduced and needed to be addressed.

[Creatorofswamps]

17 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

Some characters already have almost no flaws: Woodie, Willow, Wurt, Wortox, Wolfgang and Wilson.

Either they have a flaw that is fixed by their mechanic or it's fixed by their skill tree.

Wortox doesn't get full from regular food, Wurt can't eat meat or be friends with pigs, Wolfgang is still afraid of the dark and monsters, Willow's flaws are almost invisible, and Woodie and Wilson don't have any. But yes, I understand what you mean

4 minutes ago, cropo said:

Everyone always brings up Woodie but Woodie has a flaw that is tied to a core gameplay loop that was newly introduced and needed to be addressed.

Are you talking about those endless nights of the full moon? (either by storm. or by book) Yes, despite everything, it was a strange situation

[Kvetevk]

41 minutes ago, Creatorofswamps said:

Wortox doesn't get full from regular food, Wurt can't eat meat or be friends with pigs, Wolfgang is still afraid of the dark and monsters, Willow's flaws are almost invisible, and Woodie and Wilson don't have any. But yes, I understand what you mean

Wortox eats souls, Wurt get bonus from food (pigs got replaced by merms), Wolfgang can deal 2x damage + 30% more damage with affinity to shadow creatures and Willow can counter whole winter with fireball skill.

So it is only scary for new players.

Edited yesterday at 11:12 AM by Kvetevk

[Jakepeng99]

3 hours ago, cropo said:

Everyone always brings up Woodie but Woodie has a flaw that is tied to a core gameplay loop that was newly introduced and needed to be addressed.

He has no flaws. I don’t understand what you are alluding to.

His wereform are not downsides and has lunar affinity removes full moon.

2 hours ago, Kvetevk said:

Wortox eats souls, Wurt get bonus from food (pigs got replaced by merms), Wolfgang can deal 2x damage + 30% more damage with affinity to shadow creatures and Willow can counter whole winter with fireball skill.

So it is only scary for new players.

They still have flaws it’s at least an attempt.

I don’t understand why Wolfgang doesnt drain extra hunger anymore.

[doritosdamafia]

6 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

He has no flaws. I don’t understand what you are alluding to.

His wereform are not downsides and has lunar affinity removes full moon.

They still have flaws it’s at least an attempt.

I don’t understand why Wolfgang doesnt drain extra hunger anymore.

he still does, but it based on the might number, the best way to notice that is getting all the extra might skills and see your hunger drain like a pipe bomb explosion

[cropo]

7 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

He has no flaws. I don’t understand what you are alluding to.

That addressing his flaw, which was a core gameplay issue due to Klei deciding to add significant lunar content, was an inevitability that needed to happen. Locking him into constant transformations during some of the most peak moments and events would completely brick him from content while having absolutely zero real day-to-day impact on his gameplay. The downside made sense when the game was newer and there was less content that interacted with the moon, but the downside did not age well at all and needed some way to be avoided.

 

If anything, the fact that his entire lunar affinity is solely dedicated to fixing such a serious core issue with his gameplay and little else is a flaw in and of itself. Instead of getting something interesting, his special affinity skill is that he is permitted to play the game during lunar content, and his shadow affinity is the right to actually utilize his resource gathering at a respectable speed like he's actually supposed to be able to.

[Jakepeng99]

19 minutes ago, cropo said:

That addressing his flaw, which was a core gameplay issue due to Klei deciding to add significant lunar content, was an inevitability that needed to happen. Locking him into constant transformations during some of the most peak moments and events would completely brick him from content while having absolutely zero real day-to-day impact on his gameplay. The downside made sense when the game was newer and there was less content that interacted with the moon, but the downside did not age well at all and needed some way to be avoided.

 

If anything, the fact that his entire lunar affinity is solely dedicated to fixing such a serious core issue with his gameplay and little else is a flaw in and of itself. Instead of getting something interesting, his special affinity skill is that he is permitted to play the game during lunar content, and his shadow affinity is the right to actually utilize his resource gathering at a respectable speed like he's actually supposed to be able to.

Call me a masocist because you are fair to say it but I used to sometimes switch to Woodie during the moon event because I found it really fun.

 

Getting a free wereform is good if you prepare to use it. Though getting moose sucks. It gives me adrenaline. So yeah it never bothered me personally.

Anyway doesnt change the fact he still has no downside. I know log meter was removed for a reason but I never got to play with it, it honestly seemed interesting.

Only time I played original Woodie was on my Xbox with my sister, and we would just transform into the beaver and try destroy everything and last as long as possible.

30 minutes ago, doritosdamafia said:

he still does, but it based on the might number, the best way to notice that is getting all the extra might skills and see your hunger drain like a pipe bomb explosion

I swear he didn’t maybe Im wrong can I get evidence from the code or something? Maybe it’s exclusive to the extra might

Which would just make those skills even weaker

[GimplyGoose]

Besides the full moon, Woodie can also be forcefully transformed by eating two much monster meat in short succession (2 pieces). Cooked monster meat is actually a pretty good resource for managing hunger in the early game that Woodie can't effectively access.

It is a minor downside, but in my opinion actually comes up more often than being forcefully transformed due to a naturally occurring full moon.

So, technically, the forced full moon transformation is only half of Woodie's downside and so half of it is still left even if you pick the full moon protection skill.

[Kvetevk]

2 minutes ago, GimplyGoose said:

Besides the full moon, Woodie can also be forcefully transformed by eating two much monster meat in short succession (2 pieces). Cooked monster meat is actually a pretty good resource for managing hunger in the early game that Woodie can't effectively access.

It is a minor downside, but in my opinion actually comes up more often than being forcefully transformed due to a naturally occurring full moon.

So, technically, the forced full moon transformation is only half of Woodie's downside and so half of it is still left even if you pick the full moon protection skill.

Who is willingly eating monster meat (except webber), in early game you have carrots and berries or morsels if you catch rabbits.

[Soul7k]

4 hours ago, Creatorofswamps said:

Are you talking about those endless nights of the full moon? (either by storm. or by book) Yes, despite everything, it was a strange situation

I have never understood the complaint about Woodie during full moon/ lunar nights. he has to eat like a meatball a day after coming out of transformation and he is fine

[GimplyGoose]

6 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

Who is willingly eating monster meat (except webber), in early game you have carrots and berries or morsels if you catch rabbits.

I mean you end up collecting monster meat through standard gameplay and it has 18.8 hunger. Once you have a star caller staff, you can easily cook it up even on the go. If you cook it, you only lose 3 hp when you eat it so it is free food...

My early game strategy for any character almost always involves eating monster meat and it allows for less time wasted collecting berries and carrots.

[Kvetevk]

2 minutes ago, GimplyGoose said:

I mean you end up collecting monster meat through standard gameplay and it has 18.8 hunger. Once you have a star caller staff, you can easily cook it up even on the go. If you cook it, you only lose 3 hp when you eat it so it is free food...

My early game strategy for any character almost always involves eating monster meat and it allows for less time wasted collecting berries and carrots.

I give 4 monster meat to pigs, making them into werepigs and killing them for 2 meat and 1 pig skin.

For football helmets and food or 1 hambat per werepig.

[cropo]

Woodie was just unpolished as a character originally.

You have a character that specializes in gathering a single resource, but if you use that specialization you get punished with a transformation. Said transformation is also good at gathering resources, but needs to eat a significant portion of it in order to maintain the transformation making the increased gathering a bit of a waste. Not maintaining the transformation and reverting destroyed your hunger bar and made you skip a day which was absolutely crippling for newer players when they need to be setting up for winter.

Old Werebeaver was an absolute beast in combat, doing tentacle spike damage with speed and night-vision and a free revive if you die in that form...which had very little to do with its actual intended design. And then they just straight up released Wilba with a far more controllable transformation and method of preventing it who can stockpile a means to upkeep it in her inventory which is still accessible during transformation.

So Woodie's best qualities were coincidences that came about due to werebeaver having weird combat applications and not so much being related to his actual themes as a character.

A lot of the old character downsides and upsides were very weirdly unsatisfying and unpolished imo and I think people are heavily blinded by nostalgia on how they actually affected gameplay. Although I wouldn't complain if they did a downside renewal and gave all of the characters more thought-out downsides that didn't brick them from content or invalidate their advantages. As it stands now however I think the characters are in a much better position than they were during this games inception, lack of downsides and all.

[benfroyobro9381]

I think a point some players miss is that flaws don't need to be something that cripples a character or makes them inherently weaker. They can just force or encourage players to play them a certain way. People cite Wortox being able to eat souls as negating his downside, but I'd argue that's the point of his downside. You are discouraged from playing the game in a traditional way, setting up as many food farms or crockpots, and revolve your game plan around generating souls. 

[Pruinae]

3 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

I give 4 monster meat to pigs, making them into werepigs and killing them for 2 meat and 1 pig skin.

For football helmets and food or 1 hambat per werepig.

I'm with GimplyGoose on this one. I hammer pig houses for resources early, so I already have a surplus of pig skin that will last me until I get repairable armor, so what you suggested would only net me the meat that probably isn't worth the trouble of finding a pig to feed in the first place.

The -3 hp is negligible to work around, and the -10 sanity doesn't matter if you are already insane during/after a ruins rush, so cooked monster meat is a very nice snack.

I'd argue Woodie's biggest downside is the period of time he has to spend retransforming, especially if he is making use out of the Shadow Affinity, where there might be two terror beaks that he has to manage so they run away just as the weremeter runs out.

I don't think I've ever seen someone die because of the forced full moon transformation, either they plan ahead and make use of the extra wereform duration, get caught by surprise and wait for it to end, or get lucky even though they weren't planning on using it and get to use it for the task they're working on at the moment. It's more often than not an "eh, whatever" or "agh. now I have to wait" than something that is detrimental.

[Kvetevk]

44 minutes ago, Pruinae said:

I'm with GimplyGoose on this one. I hammer pig houses for resources early, so I already have a surplus of pig skin that will last me until I get repairable armor, so what you suggested would only net me the meat that probably isn't worth the trouble of finding a pig to feed in the first place.

I use the resources from hammered houses on building pig/werepig farm.
and if I have a lot of monster meat, I usualy put them in a crockpot to make meatballs or let them rot in a chest for rot, but it depends how much monster meat you currently have and how far you are in game.

I will do a challenge to eat only monster meat + non meat food and see how far can I get, but I never tough of eating monster meat, because Im a minmaxer.

[Mysterious box]

7 hours ago, Creatorofswamps said:

I don't want the Woody story to repeat itself, the character must have at least one flaw(Playing with a disadvantage is more interesting and diverse than when the character is "Wilson with a bunch of privileges")

To be fair Woodie was a special case due to the design of moon storms.

Spoiler

Though personally I feel like the reduced penalties applied through the skill tree kinda solved personally but I know many disagree. A better compromise could have probably been just making those benefits baseline.

 

5 hours ago, Kvetevk said:

Wurt get bonus from food (pigs got replaced by merms), Wolfgang can deal 2x damage + 30% more damage with affinity to shadow creatures

I'll exclude Willow and Wolfgang because their skills directly counteract their weaknesses but the downsides are still relevant for Wortox and Wurt even if it can be overcome with skill.

 

For Wurt not being able to eat meat means without stepping out of your comfort zone or setting up food producing areas you food options are more limited than other characters as non meat foods take longer to respawn than mobs who are always around. And because of that starvation is common for Wurt players in pubs because that limitations is meaningful. Having pigs as enemies is also problematic because most pubs tend to base at pig king even to this day which again a minor problem to an experienced player but a real one to more average ones. Also not being able to trade with pig king is also something that can be problematic sometimes but can eventually be fixed with a merm king though it does take additional effort for trades due to ocean fish being required.

For Wortox he suffers a similar issue as Wurt pig base wise though alignment can change that. He also can have big sanity issues due to his soul diet but again alignment can change that but he'll always have one problem or the other usually the pig one.

[Kvetevk]

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

For Wurt not being able to eat meat means without stepping out of your comfort zone or setting up food producing areas you food options are more limited than other characters as non meat foods take longer to respawn than mobs who are always around. And because of that starvation is common for Wurt players in pubs because that limitations is meaningful. Having pigs as enemies is also problematic because most pubs tend to base at pig king even to this day which again a minor problem to an experienced player but a real one to more average ones. Also not being able to trade with pig king is also something that can be problematic sometimes but can eventually be fixed with a merm king though it does take additional effort for trades due to ocean fish being required.

For Wortox he suffers a similar issue as Wurt pig base wise though alignment can change that. He also can have big sanity issues due to his soul diet but again alignment can change that but he'll always have one problem or the other usually the pig one.

I understand where you are coming from, but they still have mechanics that makes their flaws not an issue.
In pub servers, it is completely different for everyone, if you join a pub with selfish, new or griefer players, then of course you will have hard time.
and nobody is forcing you to base with others, make your own base, even if it would be small or not the best, also only webber and wurt have problems with pigs, wortox with the good imp skills can be friendly to pigmen.

Edited yesterday at 04:30 PM by Kvetevk

[Draggofroot]

5 hours ago, Kvetevk said:

Wurt get bonus from food (pigs got replaced by merms)

not to be mister nerd but wurt's hunger bar is buffed 33% just like how all the food she eats gives 33% more hunger, the only way this affects her at all is that she can last longer without food, and it still fills her up the same

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

wortox with the good imp skills can be friendly to pigmen.

I mentioned this but again he chooses between greater sanity issues or hostile to pigs.

 

3 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

I understand where you are coming from, but they still have mechanics that makes their flaws not an issue.
In pub servers, it is completely different for everyone, if you join a pub with selfish, new or griefer players, then of course you will have hard time.
and nobody is forcing you to base with others, make your own base, even if it would be small or not the best, also only webber and wurt have problems with pigs, wortox with the good imp skills can be friendly to pigmen.

As for the rest with Wurt while I cite pubs it's not a public exclusive issue meat is simply the most readily available food source. If you know what you are doing it's still fine without meat but you have much less sources of food without meat making it impactful and game ending for less experienced players regardless. Yes you can overcome this but that doesn't mean it isn't impactful.

[Kvetevk]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

As for the rest with Wurt while I cite pubs it's not a public exclusive issue meat is simply the most readily available food source. If you know what you are doing it's still fine without meat but you have much less sources of food without meat making it impactful and game ending for less experienced players regardless. Yes you can overcome this but that doesn't mean it isn't impactful.

In the early game, yes, mostly when other players already picked all the fruits and veggies around spawn, but after you make a farm, you can survive even on pub server + I like to get stone fruits when I play as wurt.