Why don't klei do balance patches to skill trees?

[Evelo]

15 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Skill trees are optional.

sigh I am so sick of repeating myself. Please, look up "If you don't like it, don't participate in it." It is a fallacy during discussions.
Fuelweaver is optional too.

[Green latter A]

skill trees need a rework in general

[AliceShiki]

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

sigh I am so sick of repeating myself. Please, look up "If you don't like it, don't participate in it." It is a fallacy during discussions.
Fuelweaver is optional too.

To be fair, there are different levels to this kind of argument.

A skill tree, aside from the annoying pop up to use Insight being there forever, wouldn't hurt your experience much if you plain ignored it... Granted, it does go against player psychology to not use the tools available to us, but hey, that's what challenge runs are there for. At least it's something you can ignore if you want to.

Fuelweaver is kinda different due to being a progression boss, like... Yeah, you can ignore him forever, but if you want to engage with the post-AFW content, you have to fight him.

Certainly, one could also make the argument for Skill Trees like... If one wanted to use Shadow Bernie, they'd be forced to get a bunch of Bernie buffs they may not want, which is a valid argument in this case, I'd say.

Still, at least in a vacuum, I'd say Skill Trees fit better into "don't like it, don't use it" arguments than AFW does... Even if the argument is flawed in both ends on the spectrum.

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

sigh I am so sick of repeating myself. Please, look up "If you don't like it, don't participate in it." It is a fallacy during discussions.
Fuelweaver is optional too.

Nah, you can't access post-rifts content without beating Fuelweaver, he's one of a handful of required bosses along with the Shadow Pieces, Crab King, and Celestial Champion. Rifts are basically equal to Terraria's hardmode, and that means Fuelweaver and CC are DST's Wall of Flesh.

You can beat every boss and accomplish all parts of progression while playing as a character who lacks skill trees.

The only fallacy happening here is that false equivalency you tried using as an argument. 

Edited March 8 by DegenerateFurry

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Nah, you can't access post-rifts content without beating Fuelweaver, he's one of a handful of required bosses along with the Shadow Pieces, Crab King, and Celestial Champion. Rifts are basically equal to Terraria's hardmode, and that means Fuelweaver and CC are DST's Wall of Flesh.

You can beat every boss and accomplish all parts of progression while playing as a character who lacks skill trees.

The only fallacy happening here is that false equivalency you tried using as an argument. 

This is false, you CAN access content that happens after AFW by toggling rifts to ON in world settings.

However there are several flaws that come with doing that: the first and most obvious of flaws.

#1 if you have yet to kill the boss that is associated with Lunar or Shadow Rift, then you do not EVER have access to large portions of your characters skill trees (aka anything under “affinity”) 

#2 which is directly tied to the above, without access to affinities and Lunar/Shadow character buffs, your actually engaging with content Harder than your intended to (aka character buffs or weapons that make you stronger while fighting shadow entities for example)

and then we come to #3 (my personal least favorite downside) because you have opted to toggle rifts ON before they would otherwise ever start occurring that means that if you plan to do the tasks required to unlock rifts the “traditional” way after already having them turned on, you will be doing every single one of those things while also dealing with rift changes. (Aka: This means it’s going to be significantly harder to reach maximum friendship levels with Pearl when dang Brightshades spawn on her Island before they are suppose to)

However even though those are some huge downsides, some players may not have the time, or skill (or should I say group of friends?) to help them unlock rifts the intended way, so thank GOD there’s a toggle to turn them on early.

And lastly, I wish the people who worked at Klei would play their damn game on an Xbox console, when you are limited to ONLY 5 world save slots you tend to erase a save slot to start a new world often, what this means is that you play the game from day 1 to day whatever over and over and over and over and over and over again- And anyone who has done that will probably side with me when I say it takes to freaking long to do the Lunar/Shadow quests & bosses to activate rifts in each world.

So I mean this sincerely, thank goodness they were generous enough to allow it to be enabled through world settings. ♥️

[Evelo]

3 hours ago, AliceShiki said:

Fuelweaver is kinda different due to being a progression boss, like... Yeah, you can ignore him forever, but if you want to engage with the post-AFW content, you have to fight him.

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Nah, you can't access post-rifts content without beating Fuelweaver, he's one of a handful of required bosses along with the Shadow Pieces, Crab King, and Celestial Champion. Rifts are basically equal to Terraria's hardmode, and that means Fuelweaver and CC are DST's Wall of Flesh.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

This is false, you CAN access content that happens after AFW by toggling rifts to ON in world settings.

Thank you Mike. 

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

However there are several flaws that come with doing that: the first and most obvious of flaws.

#1 if you have yet to kill the boss that is associated with Lunar or Shadow Rift, then you do not EVER have access to large portions of your characters skill trees (aka anything under “affinity”) 

#2 which is directly tied to the above, without access to affinities and Lunar/Shadow character buffs, your actually engaging with content Harder than your intended to (aka character buffs or weapons that make you stronger while fighting shadow entities for example)

Granted this is also partially false since you can utilize affinity stuff so long as you have killed AFW or CC with that character ever, not just on that world. So it isn't actually a downside at all (assuming you HAVE killed it before with said character).

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You can beat every boss and accomplish all parts of progression while playing as a character who lacks skill trees.

The only fallacy happening here is that false equivalency you tried using as an argument. 

You can beat every boss using only an axe, you can beat every boss while never using a beefalo, you can beat every boss while in lights out, while never using the celestial portal, while playing with one hand, while using cheese, while never using cheese, etc etc etc.
Cool you can do a lot of things. You know what you can't do? Ignore the part of the game that exists and has effort put toward it that completely changes the balance of the game. Just because you can play as Wes using his fists to beat the game, doesn't mean it is beneficial for the game. I think skill trees could work, but the way they are implemented is extremely flawed. To the point it would be better for the health of the game if they were removed. I think the same for the Celestial Portal. Sure you can ignore it, but just because you can doesn't mean the game isn't dramatically changed with their inclusion.

So while there is a potential for false equivalency, you don't have to kill AFW to access rift content, it is expected of you to. Much like how skill trees, Celestial Portal, beefalo, all the stuff I hate are expected of you to utilize in one form or another.

[Nikki Darks]

6 hours ago, Evelo said:

sigh I am so sick of repeating myself. Please, look up "If you don't like it, don't participate in it." It is a fallacy during discussions.
Fuelweaver is optional too.

Very much this. You dislike x, well you silly goose you can disable it in the settings so it's optional!

It leads to nowhere in a discussion.

People complained about the mutant vultures, why didn't all of those people just disable them? It's all optional! No need to discuss anything on here because there's a big chance it's optional because you can just choose the option to not have to deal with it at all.

Just a dishonest way to shut down any possible arguments on the forums...

 

[gaymime]

18 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

Very much this. You dislike x, well you silly goose you can disable it in the settings so it's optional!

It leads to nowhere in a discussion.

People complained about the mutant vultures, why didn't all of those people just disable them? It's all optional! No need to discuss anything on here because there's a big chance it's optional because you can just choose the option to not have to deal with it at all.

Just a dishonest way to shut down any possible arguments on the forums...

 

here is the thing though, it isnt always a shut-down. it is a valid type of player choice. disregarding the viability of non-engagement implies that if something can be done then it MUST be viable for every player and opens the conversation up to absolutely wrecking balance and fairness by putting forth the idea that if a player desires something/has not completed something that it needs to be accessible to them even if it is inappropriate for them. for sure though if you assume "dont use it" is a non-sequitur then you are not going to be able to understand why so many people say it and so many people play by it.

[DegenerateFurry]

3 hours ago, Evelo said:

I think skill trees could work, but the way they are implemented is extremely flawed. 

They are flawed, yeah. They add more to the game than those flaws by an immense distance, though, so those flaws should just be corrected. Biggest flaws that come to mind for me are in the specifics of a few design choices for specific trees (Wormwood's horrible plant crafting branch comes to mind), and the weird imbalance between being able to make affinity perk-related shadow items pre-rifts but not lunar ones. The former could be changed as a smaller part of an otherwise unrelated update and the latter could be fixed with a few larger tweaks, so no big deal.

3 hours ago, Evelo said:

To the point it would be better for the health of the game if they were removed. 

Y'know that phrase about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater? I think you should familiarize yourself with it. 

3 hours ago, Evelo said:

You can beat every boss using only an axe, you can beat every boss while never using a beefalo, you can beat every boss while in lights out, while never using the celestial portal, while playing with one hand, while using cheese, while never using cheese, etc etc etc.

Also, man, you sure do love false equivalencies, don't you? I'm talking about killing Fuelweaver and doing rifts stuff as Maxwell, Wanda, Warly, Wickerbottom, WX-78, or Webber. You're talking about playing Wes with an additional and absurd self-imposed challenge.

There's currently a thread up where a bunch of knuckleheads are advocating for nerfing Maxwell, he's not gonna struggle with that anywhere close to as much as the absurdity you're trying to compare it to. None of the others would either, frankly. Skill trees are more optional because most of the game is character-ambivalent while skill trees are character-specific. Everyone's gonna be using the same gear, more or less, for their point in progression, it's just that a few characters get extra options here and there. 

[Evelo]

1 minute ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Y'know that phrase about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater? I think you should familiarize yourself with it.

Just completely ignore my comments mentioning that Wilson's skill tree is fine given it laid the groundwork for modders to create their own skill trees. All that potential was thrown out when Wormwood, Woodie, and Wolfgang got their skill trees added. If all is fair in love and war then Wilson deserves a proper refresh since he never got one technically. (Which the skill trees would have been had it been relegated only to him.) 

14 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Also, man, you sure do love false equivalencies, don't you? I'm talking about killing Fuelweaver and doing rifts stuff as Maxwell, Wanda, Warly, Wickerbottom, WX-78, or Webber. You're talking about playing Wes with an additional and absurd self-imposed challenge.

You seem to, again, completely ignore all the other optional stuff I mention, while also ignoring that, you can, indeed, engage in rift content having never killed AFW.

15 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Skill trees are more optional because most of the game is character-ambivalent while skill trees are character-specific. Everyone's gonna be using the same gear, more or less, for their point in progression, it's just that a few characters get extra options here and there. 

I would agree if skill trees were optional if incredibly powerful and game changing crap wasn't introduced into them like Willow, Winona, Wigfrid, Wurt, Wormwood, basically all of them. But because the skill trees are locking out new content that could easily be made baseline as I have argued for hundreds of times, they are not. We both agree skill trees are flawed. I think the best solution is to restrict them to not add new content/items/mechanics and make said items that would be added instead baseline with skills enhancing their abilities in a balanced way. 
However, given Klei seems reluctant in doing so, much to, what I consider unhealthy for the game, it would be best to completely remove skill trees for everyone except wilson as balance has gone so far out the window that the difference in gameplay between a skill tree free character and a skill tree used character is much like playing a two different, albeit similar, games.

[DegenerateFurry]

9 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Just completely ignore my comments mentioning that Wilson's skill tree is fine given it laid the groundwork for modders to create their own skill trees. All that potential was thrown out when Wormwood, Woodie, and Wolfgang got their skill trees added. If all is fair in love and war then Wilson deserves a proper refresh since he never got one technically. (Which the skill trees would have been had it been relegated only to him.) 

You're stuck in the past, my dude. Wilson being the only one to get a skill tree wasn't ever the intention. I'd be all for his getting a touch-up. Of the three that immediately followed, Woodie and Wormwood have some great stuff in theirs, it's only Wolfgang's that I wish they didn't do until later, his feels really lame and basic. 

The more recent skill trees are all far better in design than Wilson's. You might want to take off those rose-tinted goggles you've got on.

9 minutes ago, Evelo said:

You seem to, again, completely ignore all the other optional stuff I mention, while also ignoring that, you can, indeed, engage in rift content having never killed AFW.

I go by the Klei server experience when discussing balance since it's the intended default. Anything else is absurd since you can ignore every criticism by saying "oh, just fiddle with the settings" otherwise. That logic would've kept disease in the game.

9 minutes ago, Evelo said:

However, given Klei seems reluctant in doing so, much to, what I consider unhealthy for the game, it would be best to completely remove skill trees for everyone except wilson as balance has gone so far out the window that the difference in gameplay between a skill tree free character and a skill tree used character is much like playing a two different, albeit similar, games.

Removing them would make a massive portion of the playerbase extremely angry and makes absolutely no sense. It throws years of work and tons of fun gameplay out the window just because you're still holding some unfathomably petty ancient grudge about Wilson not being the sole character to have a skill tree. You'd be taking away a lot of people's favorite things and making characters like Walter suck again. It'd literally kill DST. 

Edited March 9 by DegenerateFurry

[Evelo]

12 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I think you should familiarize yourself with it. 

You might want to take off those rose-tinted goggles you've got on.

I know you just typed this and haven't seen my comment that I just updated, but for the love of all that is good and green in the world, do not stoop to using quippy slander like this. It is so rude and unbecoming, better at squelching disagreement and discussion.

As far as your later comments, I've repeated myself time and time again and am quite tired of it. Just be respectful is all I can ask in the future.

Edited March 9 by Evelo

[DegenerateFurry]

2 minutes ago, Evelo said:

I know you just typed this and haven't seen my comment that I just updated, but for the love of all that is good and green in the world, do not stoop to using quippy slander like this. It is so rude and unbecoming, better at squelching disagreement and discussion.

As far as your later comments, I've repeated myself time and time again and am quite tired of it. Just be respectful is all I can ask in the future.

 Eh, just put me on your ignored users list if that's how you feel, I'll be doing the same. You put out passive aggressive "ugh, I'm so sick of repeating myself" (see top of page) vibes and accuse others of fallacies while committing them repeatedly yourself, you'll get 'em right back, don't dish it out if you can't take it. 

Edited March 9 by DegenerateFurry

[Echsrick]

2 hours ago, Nikki Darks said:

Very much this. You dislike x, well you silly goose you can disable it in the settings so it's optional!

i hate the rabbit king therefor i disable it.....oh wait...you cant do that

[Evelo]

10 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

you put out passive aggressive "ugh, I'm so sick of repeating myself" (see top of page) vibes and accuse others of fallacies while committing them repeatedly yourself

Yknow, totally fair, I did do that (twice) and I apologize. I would like to know what fallacies I committed so I can learn from my mistakes.

Edited March 9 by Evelo

[DegenerateFurry]

Just now, Echsrick said:

i hate the rabbit king therefor i disable it.....oh wait...you cant do that

The solution to this problem is to just post about it relentlessly on the forums until Klei eventually gives in and adds a slider to disable it, at least if the Balatro machine being possible to turn off is any indication. 

[Volt Warly]

12 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

骚扰绝不应被鼓励

unless he doesn’t listen even when kindly advised

[YouKnowWho142]

10 minutes ago, Volt Warly said:

unless he doesn’t listen even when kindly advised

pathetic. no other words.

[Mysterious box]

3 hours ago, Volt Warly said:

unless he doesn’t listen even when kindly advised

This is like threatening to beat someone up because they didn't give you their money when you asked but I guess hiding behind a screen makes it okay somehow.

[Volt Warly]

4 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

pathetic. no other words.

The most pathetic thing is when Gamer's kind suggestions are ignored

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

这就像威胁要揍别人，因为你问钱没给你，但我猜躲在屏幕后面反而可以接受。

they're paying us to play right lol

[Mysterious box]

3 hours ago, Volt Warly said:

they're paying us to play right lol

Nope but would you threaten to rob someone because they didn't do what you say?

[Mr Giggio]

If they do this people will never get over stuff. Community already thinks they have hot sauce and suggestions non stop to change stuff cuz mostly bored about game wanting it to be something else just for the sake of it. We would enter a loop and stuff get even more slow. What a nightmare. Imagine this last year after Wendy skill tree of the tweaks was a thing?

[Gashzer]

Just give good suggestions with evidence when your character skill tree is in beta. Its that simple.

My main is Walter, so during his beta I uploaded an unedited, real 2 hour playthrough with no spawning items in, playtest video of the first iteration of walters skilltree. Highlighting how completely terrible the badge system for woby was, saying how speed is wobys greatest strength which klei took on board and double downed on in the end with woby sprint/dash. (I fully believe they got inspiration for the shadow dash idea from me using the lazy explorer to "shadow dash" away from spiders in my walter beta playtest )

I suggested the upgraded pinecone hat skill, ammo pouch skill (klei made it pretty much the same cost as the piggybackpack as they saw me use it and i guess they want to incentivize no backpack gameplay for walter players in favor for body armour) , more nomadic skills in general as thats how real walter mains play him which klei translated into the rope and portable firepit skills. (In my playtest i used so much rope, and lived off only the land not using crockpot)

You know why wendy skilltree was horribly handled? Because absolutely no one posted any real gameplay test footage it was all just people complaining without any coherent solutions. People need to see the problems in action to make accurate judgements, not just reading text on a page.

I got absolutely everything i asked for in the Walter skilltree, because i gave constructive feedback with evidence. This is how to get Klei to listen to good ideas. 

Which all my ideas are, no need to thank me all at once for Walters awesome skilltree. 

Edited March 9 by Gashzer

[DegenerateFurry]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Just give good suggestions with evidence when your character skill tree is in beta. Its that simple.

My main is Walter, so during his beta I uploaded an unedited, real 2 hour playthrough with no spawning items in, playtest video of the first iteration of walters skilltree. Highlighting how completely terrible the badge system for woby was, saying how speed is wobys greatest strength which klei took on board and double downed on in the end with woby sprint/dash. (I fully believe they got inspiration for the shadow dash idea from me using the lazy explorer to "shadow dash" away from spiders in my walter beta playtest )

I suggested the upgraded pinecone hat skill, ammo pouch skill (klei made it pretty much the same cost as the piggybackpack as they saw me use it and i guess they want to incentivize no backpack gameplay for walter players in favor for body armour) , more nomadic skills in general as thats how real walter mains play him which klei translated into the rope and portable firepit skills. (In my playtest i used so much rope, and lived off only the land not using crockpot)

You know why wendy skilltree was horribly handled? Because absolutely no one posted any real gameplay test footage it was all just people complaining without any coherent solutions. People need to see the problems in action to make accurate judgements, not just reading text on a page.

I got absolutely everything i asked for in the Walter skilltree, because i gave constructive feedback with evidence. This is how to get Klei to listen to good ideas. 

Which all my ideas are, no need to thank me all at once for Walters awesome skilltree. 

I must keep this in mind when Warly's skill tree is in beta.

[Gashzer]

54 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I must keep this in mind when Warly's skill tree is in beta.

Aye, its easy to spawn things like Walter's jelly grip or clockwork bishops and gears in then cry OP as you destroy bosses on day 1 showcase videos but measuring the convenience of obtaining these things verses other methods for killing bosses in real gameplay is a different story and is were 95% of the balancing comes from.