Some Rational and Angry Criticism/一些带着理智与愤怒的批评

[adminaaassh]

Some Rational Yet Angry Criticism

I spent four hours writing this post, carefully considering what needed to be said, and then revising and trimming it. Despite the language barrier, I entrusted AI translation to help convey my thoughts. This post was written out of anger but remains rational. I hope it can stay up for a while, and I sincerely hope the developers read it and reflect on whether these issues truly exist.

I am a player from China, and I primarily play long-term saves—ranging from 1,000 to over 10,000 in-game days. (Yes, you heard that right. There are players who play a single save file for this long, and many of them exist in China.) The reason I am posting this is to critique certain aspects of the development team.

Before getting into specifics, I want to make one thing clear: in my view, a good game should offer multiple choices. Players should be able to achieve their goals in various creative ways through different game mechanics, as long as these methods do not significantly break game balance. This approach satisfies a broader range of players, ultimately expanding the player base and increasing revenue—a fundamental and straightforward concept for any game company.

For instance, some players prefer defeating bosses purely through movement and skill, while others do not want to rely on manual dexterity. Why bring this up? A large amount of illogical support for the developers. They force their opinions on others, claiming that the game should only be played in a certain way and that any alternative methods are "wrong." Whenever the developers make changes that remove certain mechanics, these people immediately proclaim that the modifications are "reasonable" and dictate how the game should be played. They are highly intolerant of differing perspectives and blindly defend the developers without objectively evaluating the pros and cons of each change. Essentially, they impose their definition of the game while silencing other voices.

With that foundation established, here are some specific issues I see with the developers and the forum environment.

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1. Some Developers Have an Alarmingly Shallow Understanding of the Game

It seems that some developers design content based on sudden bursts of inspiration rather than deep comprehension of the game. Here are some examples:

1. The Bat Bat Nerf and Reversal
   A few months ago, the Bat Bat was modified so it could no longer drain health from shadow creatures. The reasoning given was that shadow creatures "do not have souls." However, this change was later reversed. My guess? They received reports from Wormwood players who relied on the Bat Bat to clear Ruins in the caves.

2. Cannon and Catapult
   (I have a detailed post on this.) To summarize, the Cannon used to be effective for chopping trees without projectile deviation. Meanwhile, the Catapult was briefly changed in beta to be exclusive to Winona, preventing other characters from using it. This disrupted long-standing player strategies, such as surrounding the Catapult with statues for effective Hound defense. The Catapult change was reverted, but the Cannon was not, meaning we lost many useful setups based on it.
   (On May 2, 2024, in your "brief intermission" update, you confidently stated:
   “We hope that you enjoy our brief intermission. We'll return in a couple of weeks with some news and teasers for our next update which will contain a couple of new character skill trees and... Ocean QOL. You know, things I'm sure nobody has any strong opinions about.”
   Yet this update ended up causing significant controversy over the Cannon and Catapult changes.)

3. Some Turf Changes Prevent Tree Planting
   This issue was widely discussed on the forums. I suspect it was another case of a developer impulsively deciding to "fix" something after a player questioned why trees could be planted on certain turfs. (From my perspective, simply allowing Ancient Gateway floors to be replaced would have offered more freedom in base design.)

4. Wendy's Shadow Ability—A Poorly Thought-Out Design
   Imagine a Wendy player carefully gathers butterflies over a long period, preparing for a boss fight. During the battle, they use Abigail’s shadow transformation skill, only to suddenly trigger four Krampuses. Their teammate dies, they barely win the fight, but all their teammate’s items are stolen.
   (Did the developers completely forget about Krampus when designing this skill? Did they expect players to catch mosquitoes instead? Or did they deliberately make this skill come with such a bizarre cost? Compared to other character abilities, this one feels particularly flawed.)

These are just a few examples, but I suspect there are many more. The core issue is not these individual problems but rather what they reveal: some developers have a poor understanding of the game and rely on fleeting "eureka" moments for design decisions—moments that lack a solid gameplay foundation. This leads to unnecessary disruptions to established mechanics, frustrating long-time players, and resulting in shallow, unimpactful changes.

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2. The Widespread Defense of Developers Stemming from Differences in Game Understanding

I already mentioned this earlier, but it needs to be emphasized: this is a serious problem. The forum’s culture and the developers’ decisions are closely intertwined, forming a toxic feedback loop.

Whenever someone raises concerns about the game’s design, a large portion of short-term players (who make up the majority of the player base) instinctively defend the developers' decisions due to differences in game understanding and a simple emotional attachment. Their main arguments often revolve around statements like "This is how the game is meant to be played" or "This design is reasonable."

I believe these arguments are flawed.

I have a simple question for them:
Where is the logic? What are the pros and cons? Can you provide a well-reasoned analysis of what is lost and gained with these changes?

Instead, their stance boils down to:

• Players lose established mechanics.

• Long-time players feel alienated.

• In return, the game supposedly becomes more "reasonable."

• Therefore, "the game is meant to be played this way."

This lack of logical discussion is frustrating. A successful game should attract and retain a diverse player base through positive updates. Expanding the player base leads to higher revenue—an extremely basic principle for any game company. Yet, some forum members reject any differing opinions, imposing their narrow view of how the game should be played without considering player diversity.

This mindless defense of the developers stifles meaningful feedback. It forces those who want to provide constructive criticism into exhausting, repetitive arguments, further discouraging discussion. Among the Chinese community, there's a saying about the forums:
"Don't bother suggesting changes there. No matter how bad the design is, you'll face relentless, baseless opposition."

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3. The Developers' Passive and Lazy Approach to Feedback

Before you get defensive, hear me out. Many Chinese players feel that the developers only respond to overwhelmingly controversial issues—those with high post engagement fueled by repeated, frustrated arguments.

The usual process is:

• A major issue sparks heated debates.

• Passionate players engage in countless exhausting discussions with uninformed defenders.

• The post stays active long enough for the developers to notice.

• The issue might get addressed.

This system is fundamentally flawed. It wears down players' patience. (This is why I rarely post on the forums. Engaging in repetitive debates with people who lack logic is draining.)

For smaller issues, the developers rarely make changes unless it aligns with their personal interests or is easy to implement. Meanwhile, unresolved frustrations build up, leading to the next major controversy—like the Wendy incident.

Among sandbox games, Minecraft, Terraria, and Don't Starve Together are considered the "Big Three." Yet, Don't Starve Together has the most frustrating community and the lowest overall reputation. The cycle of unresolved frustration, silent developers, and meaningless forum debates contributes to this.

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Final Thoughts

One of the developers, Jason, once said, "If you don’t like it, just turn it off."
This statement reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of game design philosophy.

Long-term players want to enjoy new content while maintaining the integrity of their existing worlds. Forcing players to disable features to preserve balance is lazy design. If Minecraft introduced a new feature but required you to permanently play in Peaceful mode to use it, how would you feel?

The developers seem intent on dictating how players should play, disregarding past mechanics and community feedback. At least, that’s my impression.

【烂完！锐评「来自域外」的糜烂设计！｜言讨声罚系列＆第二期-哔哩哔哩】 https://b23.tv/KQ8fpNM

【从口碑爆棚到口诛笔伐，饥荒「来自域外」版本中，究竟一步步地发生了什么？-哔哩哔哩】 https://b23.tv/hI4wdp1

These two videos are among the highest viewed ones about Don't Starve Together on Bilibili in the past few months. I may have been conservative in my statement; they might actually be the highest viewed Don't Starve Together videos in the past half-year, containing a lot of negative emotional outbursts. Personally, after watching them, there wasn’t much to discuss, but what is the main issue? The criticism in the video has surpassed the official Don't Starve Together update videos on Klei's official account on this platform, as well as other fan-made videos. And it's not just a slight difference; the gap is massive. Other videos have a few tens of thousands of views, while this video has a staggering 380,000 views. I think this clearly points to a big problem (Oh, I did see an exception, but that creator’s video was about Don't Starve Together mods, not the original game, which makes it even more abstract...).

（I feel that there’s a slight issue with the translation, so I’d like to add some clarification. What I mean is that other players' videos on this platform generally have very low view counts, with one exception. None of them perform better than a critical video, which targets other video creators. As for the official trailers and short clips from Klei, they have a lot of views, but even the recent ones don't compare to these two critical videos.）

Oh, by the way, there’s another important thing: I suspect the bottomless maintenance behavior of some forum players might have created an illusion for the developers. They might think they’re doing a great job, and indeed, some things are good, but some of their designs are simply unbearable... This, combined with the points I mentioned earlier, forms a vicious cycle, which I think is the main reason for the decline in Don't Starve Together’s ratings.

This game isn’t just for players who play a few hundred days, defeat a boss, and then switch to the next save. There are people who play for thousands or even tens of thousands of days, those who like building, and those who don’t like fighting bosses. Different people have different understandings of the game. Though they are in the minority, I hope the developers will take the time to understand the game’s mechanics and its diverse player groups. Don’t just shut yourselves in your office and imagine abstract, unfounded ideas based on little understanding of the game, which ends up lowering the quality of updates.

Lastly, my suggestion: I know independent thinking and inspiration are important, but they should be based on a thorough understanding of the game. When developers are about to update something, please avoid coming up with counterintuitive ideas, such as changes to skills or the ocean. We could post a thread asking players what pain points certain characters have, how most people play, what pain points exist with the ocean, and what they want added. Posting a thread and collecting feedback for reference costs nothing and can be done. I believe 90% of conflicts can be resolved through communication, and this is something the developers lack. Also, for some suggestion threads, it would be great if developers could say a few words, such as "Thank you for your suggestion, I will consider it." This kind of positive feedback is necessary. Don’t let mindless maintenance cloud your judgment and posts. I suggest you provide some positive feedback and language, rather than let useless comments fill up genuinely helpful threads.

I’ll stop writing for now. I know you have certain tactics, such as in the previous Wendy incident, where you deliberately left some negative threads up to allow dissatisfied players to vent their emotions. But this doesn’t solve the fundamental problem. I believe what I’m addressing now touches on the core issue (to prevent the next vicious cycle), and I hope this post won’t be locked. At least let other players voice their opinions. I will write everything I can think of and avoid arguing with others, as it’s often pointless. I also hope the developers can see and respond, as this post is written for you!

What I want to say most is that although I’m not sure of your exact titles, from my limited understanding, I think one of you is a manager, another is a group administrator, and the other is a technical backbone.

By the way, I’d like to mention why Don’t Starve Together developer Jason has become a highly criticized developer in China. Many people believe he designed the Great Depths Worm and Wendy’s skill tree, but there is no direct evidence for this. It’s simply because he was the one presenting during the official live demos, and he often says strange and counterintuitive things. Then, angry Chinese players, with no outlet for their frustration, directed their anger toward him, spreading rumors... Lastly, I should mention that probably only the artist behind Don't Starve Together has received consistent positive evaluations for their work on the game.

The forum has repeatedly erupted in conflicts over game updates, and the root cause is obvious. What I’ve always been curious about is why many of the developers—who are nearly twice my age—seem unaware of these issues. Or is it that they’re simply content with the status quo and unwilling to make changes…?

These repeated disputes all stem from the same glaringly clear problems.

If they really wanted to resolve them, the solution would be incredibly simple: adjust their strategy and show a more open attitude.

• Create a dedicated feedback thread to collect opinions.

• Host live Q&A sessions specifically to listen to players.

• Set up group chats and invite experienced streamers or dedicated players to share their insights.

There are countless easy ways to gather player feedback, and none of them require significant cost or effort. All it takes is for the developers to simply say one thing:
"We need your feedback."

Just that one step could easily prevent so many of these issues.

Feel free to provide any feedback or corrections. Thank you.

[nimzowitsch10]

yes the devs are very passive and they are probably getting paid multi 6 figure salaries.

I've given up making these types of posts because it always just gets met with klei fans that have to stick up for devs.

The fact is the devs don't care as much as the fans do and I assume thats the case with alot of games, not much we can do.

[hyoton123]

OK, but the vast majority of recommendations I see are *horrible.*

[adminaaassh]

@V2C 认证@乔W@JasonWhat I want to say most is that although I’m not sure of your exact titles, from my limited understanding, I think one of you is a manager, another is a group administrator, and the other is a technical backbone.

一些带着理智与愤怒的批评

这一篇帖子我写了四个小时想了很多应该讲的事情，然后进行了修改与删减，顶着语言不通的压力交给ai机器翻译，这篇帖子是基于愤怒但又保持着理性的情况下写出来的，我希望至少能留存一会儿，同时希望开发人员能够看到里面所说的，然后仔细想一想，到底有没有这些问题

我是一名来自中国的玩家，并且我一般只游玩长期存档，比如1000天以上到1万天以上的存档，（是的，你没听错，真的有人会玩一个存档这么长的时间，而且在中国国内还很多）发这篇帖子的原因是因为我想批评开发团队的某些问题，在此之前我要提出一个观点，对我来说，一款好的游戏，应该有多种选择，人们可以通过各种各样的游戏机制和奇妙的方式去干成一些事情，只要这些方式并不是太过失去平衡，这样就可以满足很多方玩家，(扩展玩家基数然后赚更多的钱这么个道理，这对于一个公司来说是一个基础中的基础而又极其简单的道理),比如说喜欢纯用走位打boss的玩家以及不喜欢自己靠手打的玩家。为什么要提这个呢，因为论坛有很多人会没有逻辑无条件维护开发人员，他们会按着你的头告诉你，这个游戏就应该这么玩，你所说的一切方法都是错的，开发人员只要进行修改，然后让某种事物消失，他们就会出来告诉你对于这个游戏来说这样是"合理"的，这个游戏应该使用怎样的方式玩，他们极度排斥其他玩家，无条件为官方以及开发人员辩护，他们是不会讲优点在哪里缺点在哪里，只会拿所谓的“合理”当做理由，说游戏这么修改是合理的游戏应该怎样怎样去玩。他们定义了这个游戏，并且不容听到其他的声音

以上这一些是我认为最需要先提的，以下是我认为开发人员以及论坛环境出现的一些问题

1.部分开发人员对于游戏的理解简直低到令人发指的程度，并且他们习惯于靠突如其来的灵感来设计游戏，但是这种灵感是基于对游戏了解的不够深透的情况下，接下来我举几个例子，
①.大概几个月前Bat Bat被修改为不能对暗影生物吸血，给出的理由是因为暗影生物没有灵魂，但之后被修改了回来，我猜测原因可能是他们接收到了某个玩家的报告，知道了有Wormwood的玩家，他们会靠蝙蝠棒来下地洞清理Ruins。
②.Cannon和Catapult，这两个各位具体可以看我之前的帖子，简单说一下基础应用Cannon以前可以用来砍树并不会有弹道偏移，而Catapult曾经在测试服被修改为只有Winona专享，其他角色无法使用，改变了长久以来的玩家习惯，例如我们可以使用Catapult来防猎犬，周围包围一圈雕像，然后中间围Catapult，现在已经被修改回来了，但是Cannon并没有，到现在我们仍失去了基于Cannon的很多好用的装置（在2024年5月2号中场休息更新中，你们曾自信满满的表示”We hope that you enjoy our brief intermission. We'll return in a couple of weeks with some news and teasers for our next update which will contain a couple of new character skill trees and... Ocean QOL. You know, things I'm sure nobody has any strong opinions about. “，可是最后引起了Cannon和Catapult的相关争议）
③.一些Turfs不能再种植树木了，这个相信各位看到了论坛的帖子，这个的帖子讨论度很高，但我估计又是开发人员灵光一闪的产物或者是有个玩家提问为什么这些Turfs上能种，然后开发人员马上进行修改，（就我个人理解来说，让Ancient Gateway的地板能够更换就可以了，这样还能有更多的搭配自由和设计自由）
④.我猜测开发人员设计Wendy的暗影技能是没有进行深思熟虑的，我给各位提供一个场景，一位Wendy玩家千辛万苦从各种地方花费了很多时间准备蝴蝶，和队友一起打boss，然后击杀蝴蝶变成了暗影Abigail，但他发现忽然就来了4只Krampus，这个时候你的队友恰巧死了，你成功击败了boss，获得了一点点战利品，但你队友的东西全被偷完了（是的，我怀疑他们在设计这个技能的时候，根本没有想到Krampus这种东西，或者他们可能觉得可以去抓蚊子？又或者他们觉得这样设计合理，Abigail每次使用这项能力都是有代价的，但如果是，这对比其他角色的技能来说，也太抽象了一点吧）

暂时就想到了这些，但我模糊的印象里应该还有很多，只是我一时想不起来，有兴趣的可以补充，这些事情的关键是什么不是这些问题本身而是这些问题所透露出来的根本性的问题，就是部分开发人员对游戏的了解很少，以及他们在有的时候设计或修改一些东西的时候是仅凭忽如其来的灵光一闪来做的，但这种灵光一闪是基于没有游戏理解的基础上，这会导致一些旧有的习惯被摧毁，引起部分玩家反感，是经不起深度思考的无趣的创新。

2.基于游戏理解上的差异，而产生的大量的维护开发者的行为 每当有人对游戏的设计提出担忧时，很大一部分的短期玩家（他们是游戏的大多数），因为与长期玩家在游戏理解上的差异，以及朴素的情感去捍卫开发者的决定，他们的主要论点，大多是”这个游戏应该这么玩“或者”这个设计是合理的“类似于这样的观点，我认为这些是错误的，我知道这一条在最开始我提过，但我必须得说出这是很严重的一个问题，并且这一点和上面那一点是连起来的，他们会形成一套组合拳，让一个想提意见的玩家处处受阻，充满怨气，接下来我要说一下他们的具体行为，当你对游戏的一些设计有异议的时候，他们会表现出反对，维护开发人员所做出的改变与设计，他们最常用的理由是：这个游戏就该这么玩的，这么设计很“合理”。对于这些我其实特别想问，合理在哪了？优点和缺点在哪？请问可以用逻辑来论述一遍，你觉得这么改变，你会失去什么，你会得到什么吗？除了会失去一些老习惯失去一些机制，然后让一些习惯于这些技巧的老玩家感到莫名其妙与厌恶之外，最后得到你所说的“合理”，这就是所谓的这个游戏就是这么玩的？这么做一点错都没有？

说一点比较现实的，一个游戏要尽可能的吸引各种类的玩家，并且在一个又一个良性的更新上才能取得发展，扩展玩家基数然后赚更多的钱，这么个道理，这对于一个公司来说是一个基础中的基础而又极其简单的道理，请问明白吗？例如Minecraft，喜欢建造建筑和喜欢打怪的，他们就可以在一起促进游戏发展的更久，而现在论坛的一些人，他们就喜欢按着别人的头，告诉他们这个游戏就应该这么玩，然后这些设计全是合理的，他们根本就没有意识到这些问题，他们的讲话大多数也没什么逻辑，也不讲究什么得失。

最最关键的是，他们这种捍卫的行为，会让一些提意见的人真的很烦，因为无效言论太多了，但有时候必须得重复一遍又一遍相同的话来和他们对话，离开了一个人，又会来另一个，说出一些更莫名其妙的话，在中国的玩家群体中，流传着一些关于论坛的描述：尽量不要来论坛提游戏的修改意见，因为当你提出任何意见或建议的时候，你很容易遇到各种维护开发人员设计的人，即使这个设计很烂，你都将会遭到无情又无聊的话语，然后你需要疲于奔命与他们进行各种各样无意义的对话

3.开发人员对于绝大部分意见与建议的应对方法是消极的懒惰的，请先不要急，先听我慢慢说，他们一般对于意见和建议的处理方法是这样的（至少在国内玩家里有很大一部分对他们的印象是这样的）：一般他们会处理一些争议较大的帖子里提出的问题，比如操作浏览量和超多的评论数，然后这些评论与浏览量里很大一部分就是因为愤怒重复一次又一次无趣的对话，而讨论出来的。说简单点，他们一般会对争议较大的问题进行修改，而保持较大的争议往往是有一些带有信念与热情的玩家疯狂与一些缺少理解的玩家重复一大堆无意义且充满抱怨的话保持帖子热度，然后才引起开发人员的关注，这一套流程就是最大的问题，（极大磨灭人的耐心，这也是我为什么不喜欢在论坛发言的原因，有些时候我想他们说话这么没有逻辑，我为什么还要和他们对话呢？但是又想某些东西是我喜欢的，为了引起开发人员注意，让他们保留这一些有趣的东西，我不得不和这些人进行一些重复无聊的对话）
开发人员对较小争议所提到的问题，一般都不会进行修改，当然我个人认为他们主要出于兴趣以及难易程度，而进行修改，然后让帖子里残存的愤怒随着时间的推移推到下一个争议点，形成更多充满愤怒的帖子或者等到更大的问题出现形成下一次Wendy事件。在中国，我们评选沙盒游戏的三个巨头，一个是Minecraft，另一个是Terraria，最后一个是Don't Starve Together，其中只有Don't Starve Together的圈子是最烦人的，而且，综合评价也是最低的，我想我提到的这些是其中部分原因，堆积的愤怒，沉默的开发人员，以及无意义的帖子。。。。。

再补充一些吧，是对上面三点的扩展，开发人员其中之一的jason曾经说过，如果不喜欢可以关掉某些设置，我认为他对做游戏的理念有极大的问题，我作为一个长期存档玩家而言，我希望可以享受游戏更新带来的收益，以及更多的物品与冒险，这是一个最朴素的玩家想法，我举个简单的例子，以Minecraft而言，如果官方更新了一个正式版本添加一个新东西，代价就是你必须得将游戏的设置调整成和平模式，然后你必须得全程游玩和平模式不能修改。你是什么感觉？我知道这个时候会有人说这两款游戏不一样，我也不想争论什么，我想说，作为一个长期存档玩家，我想享受游戏更新的所带来的新的冒险与物品，这是一个很正常又最为基础的逻辑，如果说非要关掉些什么东西，而不招致玩家的反感，只有一款游戏刚刚设计出来时候的那段时间出来的，对游戏影响极大的东西，然后根据时间的推移在玩家群体中产生一个默认的规则（是的，我说的就是野火），这才是不会让某些玩家产生反感的唯一机会。如果你加一个绝对会对玩家体验有影响的设置，那可能会变成下一个Great Depths Worm或Wendy事件
另外，开发人员在直播中透露出来的感觉，他们很想摁着玩家的头教玩家游戏应该如何游玩，并告诉所有玩家之前做的都是错的，至少我个人的感觉是这样的（只是我个人的感觉）

https://b23.tv/KQ8fpNM

https://b23.tv/hI4wdp1

这两个视频是在bilibili上近几个月以来播放量最高的有关于Don't Starve Together的视频，我可能说的保守了，可能是近半年以来Don't Starve Together播放量最高的视频，其中包含了大量的负面，情绪输出言论，我个人通篇看下来，实际上没有多少可以讨论的东西，但是主要问题是什么呢？是一个批评的视频竟然超过了你们Klei在这个平台上官方的视频账号的Don't Starve Together版本更新视频动画的热度，以及其他玩家制作Don't Starve Together视频的热度，而且对比其他玩家不是一点点的距离是断崖式，其他的视频最多几万播放量这个视频足足断崖的38万的播放量，我认为这足以说明很大的问题（噢，我确实看到了例外，但那位作者的视频是介绍Don't Starve Together模组的，和原版无关，当然也有原版的，不过是Don't Starve的，这就显得更加抽象了。。。。。。）

噢，对了对了，还有一个很重要的事情，我怀疑论坛部分玩家的无底线维护行为可能让开发人员们产生一些错觉，他们或许会认为自己做的很不错，实际上是的，有些确实不错，但是他们某些设计简直惨不忍睹。。。。。。。。再结合我之前说的几点，形成一次又一次的恶性循环，我认为这就是Don't Starve Together的评分变低的主要原因

这个游戏不只有只玩几百天，打完一轮boss，然后换下一个存档的玩家，还有人会玩千天天甚至几万天的，还有只喜欢建造的，还有不喜欢打boss的，不同的人对游戏理解会不一样，虽然他们是少数，但我希望开发人员他们能去深入了解一下游戏的各种机制与群体，不要再因为没有多少游戏理解，然后关上办公室的门凭空想象一些而凭空想象一些莫名其妙的根本经受不起游玩的点子，拉低游戏的更新质量

最后是我的建议:我知道独立思考和灵感很重要，但是这是要基于对游戏有足够理解的情况下，当开发人员要更新某些东西的时候，请不要做一些反直觉的想法，比如技能或者海洋的更新，我们可以发一篇帖子，询问一下某个角色有哪些的痛点，大部分人是怎么玩的？海洋又有哪些的痛点？希望添加什么？发一篇帖子然后收集消息进行参考，这些与成本无关，这是能做到的事情，我相信90%的矛盾可以通过沟通解决，而这就是开发人员所缺少的，还有一点就是对于一些意见帖，建议开发人员说几句话，比如谢谢你的建议，我会当做参考的。这样类似的话，不要让无脑的维护充满了你们的头脑以及整个帖子，我建议你们提供一些正向反馈和语言，而不要让无用的评论充斥一些真正有用的帖子

暂时写那么多，我知道你们有一些操作手法，例如在之前Wendy事件的时候，你们会故意不封锁一些帖子让一些负面帖子发出来，来让不满的玩家抒发情绪，但这解决不了根本问题，我认为我现在所说的触及到问题的最核心的问题了（为了不进入下一次恶性循环），我希望这篇帖子暂时不要被封锁，至少让其他玩家说说，我也会把我能想到的都给写一下，并且我不会与其他玩家发生争吵，因为有些时候真的很没有意义，同时我也希望开发者们能看到并回应，因为这篇帖子我是想写给你们的！！！！

我最想对你们说，虽然我不确定你们的正式职位，在我个人浅薄的认知中，你们三位一个是主管一个是小组管理员然后一个是技术骨干

顺道我提一下，为什么Don't Starve Together开发者jason在国内会成为一个有很大负面评价的开发人员，很多人认为Great Depths Worm和Wendy的技能树是他设计的，但实际上并没有直接证据，只是因为官方直播演示的时候是他，并且还经常爆出一些奇怪而又反直觉的话，然后怒火无处安放的中国玩家就把愤怒迁就于他，然后就爆出了谣言。。。。。。。最后再提一句，估计只有美术设计的Don't Starve Together开发人员是从头到尾都正面评价的Don't Starve Together开发人员了。。。。。

有意见欢迎提出，有错误请告诉我，谢谢

 

这些是中文原版

[Uedo]

I think your post hits on some really core issues with the community and the game. 

We've had a lot of people recognise the same issues, but I think it's too late - Invariably, we'll eventually move on and the game can finally end. They can't keep up with their own deadlines, they community engagement is shallow and the dev decisions are not only antithetical to the player-base, they're really destructive for their previous ethos on how the genre used to function. 

There's the big issue of people on this forum having strong emotional ties to the game too, which leads them to thinking any criticism is some type of attack - it's tiring and off-putting and that's why people who used to contribute a lot just stopped as it was easier than to get into weird circular arguments where they're uninformed.

I really appreciate the post though @adminaaassh

[adminaaassh]

The forum has repeatedly erupted in conflicts over game updates, and the root cause is obvious. What I’ve always been curious about is why many of the developers—who are nearly twice my age—seem unaware of these issues. Or is it that they’re simply content with the status quo and unwilling to make changes…?

These repeated disputes all stem from the same glaringly clear problems.

If they really wanted to resolve them, the solution would be incredibly simple: adjust their strategy and show a more open attitude.

• Create a dedicated feedback thread to collect opinions.

• Host live Q&A sessions specifically to listen to players.

• Set up group chats and invite experienced streamers or dedicated players to share their insights.

There are countless easy ways to gather player feedback, and none of them require significant cost or effort. All it takes is for the developers to simply say one thing:
"We need your feedback."

Just that one step could easily prevent so many of these issues.

[lowercase skye]

17 minutes ago, adminaaassh said:

2. The Forum's Toxic Culture of Unconditional Dev Worship

I've actually never seen a game community as hostile to its developers as Don't Starve's is. In the decade I've been here, it's been very normal to insult the developers for basically any reason, and it's only ramped up in the past few months. The culture here is very much an ambient distaste towards the developers. I don't know what you've been seeing to come to this conclusion.

[adminaaassh]

4 minutes ago, lowercase skye said:

I've actually never seen a game community as hostile to its developers as Don't Starve's is. In the decade I've been here, it's been very normal to insult the developers for basically any reason, and it's only ramped up in the past few months. The culture here is very much an ambient distaste towards the developers. I don't know what you've been seeing to come to this conclusion.

I suggest you take a look at these two posts. The outcomes of these discussions were relatively positive, but the endless debates have exhausted me. Repeating the same arguments over and over again leaves me speechless.

Talking to people who completely lack logic is just mentally draining.

Of course, I’m not referring to you—what frustrates me the most is the need to constantly repeat the same points just to get the developers' attention.

Additionally, I want to say that when you feel a game’s community is in a bad state, there must be a reason for it. You need to consider why its environment is worse compared to the other two games I mentioned.

The first thing I think we should rule out is the idea that it’s just because the players themselves have poor attitudes—that explanation is too simplistic.

Also, please take the time to read my entire post. You might also want to search for other related discussions or go through the test version forum page by page. I believe you’ll come across some valuable insights.

Maybe you think these are just my personal biases, but I have to tell you—a significant number of players in the Chinese Don't Starve Together community share these opinions.

[crushcircuit]

31 minutes ago, adminaaassh said:

(On May 2, 2024, in your "brief intermission" update, you confidently stated:
“We hope that you enjoy our brief intermission. We'll return in a couple of weeks with some news and teasers for our next update which will contain a couple of new character skill trees and... Ocean QOL. You know, things I'm sure nobody has any strong opinions about.”
Yet this update ended up causing significant controversy over the Cannon and Catapult changes.)

they were being sarcastic here. they knew that people were going to have strong opinions about the update no matter what it did, and were joking about it. they did this when Wolfgang's Refresh happened as well xD

27 minutes ago, adminaaassh said:

Some Turf Changes Prevent Tree Planting
This issue was widely discussed on the forums. I suspect it was another case of a developer impulsively deciding to "fix" something after a player questioned why trees could be planted on certain turfs. (From my perspective, simply allowing Ancient Gateway floors to be replaced would have offered more freedom in base design.)

this was not an impulsive change. it was requested, because things like world regrowth were messing with player-made structures that utilized the ruins turfs.

the devs do listen to feedback, but i agree that they could use some more communication work.

i also think we should be respectful to them, but criticism and respect are not mutually exclusive. we can criticize how they do things without making personal attacks (which is not to say you have, but it is a repeated issue i've noticed on the forums in general). i'm not sure i'd say the majority of the forums blindly defends them. in many updates people are outright harassing them constantly for making any changes to the game at all, which was especially prominent during the last beta.

i'd say the forums can be a hostile environment during updates in general. i myself have had largely good experiences thus far, but posting on here can be rather nerve-wracking, as you've described in your post as well. i think there's a lot of differing opinions, and people can be quite harsh when articulating those opinions.

[YouKnowWho142]

I really dislike when people blindly say it's "dev worship" when someone has a different opinion from themselves. Everyone here has been quite open to criticizing the game when they feel like something's wrong. I don't even disagree with a lot of the points you made. However, it is very rude to assume that the community is toxic worshippers just because they don't agree with you or see the game differently from you.

4 minutes ago, crushcircuit said:

i also think we should be respectful to them, but criticism and respect are not mutually exclusive. we can criticize how they do things without making personal attacks (which is not to say you have, but it is a repeated issue i've noticed on the forums in general). i'm not sure i'd say the majority of the forums blindly defends them. in many updates people are outright harassing them constantly for making any changes to the game at all, which was especially prominent during the last beta.

i'd say the forums can be a hostile environment during updates in general. i myself have had largely good experiences thus far, but posting on here can be rather nerve-wracking, as you've described in your post as well. i think there's a lot of differing opinions, and people can be quite harsh when articulating those opinions.

this 100%

[adminaaassh]

Yes, as I mentioned at the beginning of my post, this was written in a state of both anger and rationality.

Let me explain my situation. In the past, I would stay up until 2 or 3 AM just to wait for their updates. Since I’m in China, their updates usually happen at around 2:30 AM for us. I’ve waited many times, but most of the time, I ended up disappointed.

Lately, their development has been incredibly lazy. Take the Year of the Snake update as an example:

• They only added one lantern for the New Year event.

• They simply added a reskinned Depths Worm to the ground.

That’s it. It’s all extremely half-hearted.

I can give more examples:

• The Void Mask Rock Lobster bug, where they could infinitely reproduce underground, remained unfixed for over two months.

• The Icker Preserve Kit bug, which caused the game to crash, also went unfixed for more than two months.

One more thing:

I feel like a vicious cycle is about to form again, so I need to clarify something. Please do not twist my words into something extreme.

I’ve been very careful with my wording—most of my statements use phrases like "some people" or "some players say this". Maybe you didn’t notice, or maybe something was lost in translation, but I am not outright mocking everyone in the forum.

We are all rational people. There are good and bad people in this world—that’s a simple fact, and I am well aware of it.

[YouKnowWho142]

10 minutes ago, adminaaassh said:

Lately, their development has been incredibly lazy. Take the Year of the Snake update as an example:

• They only added one lantern for the New Year event.

• They simply added a reskinned Depths Worm to the ground.

That’s it. It’s all extremely half-hearted.

It almost sounds like they were busy revising a beta that the community heavily criticized,  your expectations are unreasonable

[hyoton123]

11 minutes ago, adminaaassh said:

Since I’m in China, their updates usually happen at around 2:30 AM for us. I’ve waited many times, but most of the time, I ended up disappointed.

Okay, well, you probably shouldnt do that. This isn’t a competitive game.

[adminaaassh]

Their half-hearted attitude towards the Lunar New Year event is plain for everyone to see.

Even the Year of the Pig King update, which was once considered the laziest event update, at least introduced a bunch of new food items and added a new mechanic.

But this year’s Year of the Snake update? It’s ridiculously lazy.

All I can say is...

Also, last year's Lunar New Year update was basically just a copy-paste of the Year of the Rat event.

[Evelo]

I tend to side with developers way more than I side with the player base. Simply because players are in general, excellent at finding issues, but horrible at coming up with solutions.

Have a real issue? Awesome bring it up, explain why it is an issue and define what makes it an issue (unfun, game breaking, flow issue, etc). But don't always offer solutions because that is the designer/developers job. Sure some solutions are good, however I want to guess 80% of the time the solutions are non-sense.

[adminaaassh]

Moreover, I can give you another example: the issue where baby beefalo would no longer grow when off-screen—they actually had to fix it twice! Why do you think that happened? The only explanation is that they didn't properly test it after the first fix… And to make things worse, they even mentioned the fix in the patch notes the first time, only for the problem to resurface again…

Moreover, I believe that sometimes we need to speak more firmly. Anyone can talk about grand principles, but actions are what truly matter. Many players have provided valuable feedback before, yet the developers have mostly ignored or dismissed them—that is the key issue.

Their lack of communication is also a critical problem. As I mentioned earlier, when designing new content, they likely shut themselves in their office and come up with some random, bizarre ideas without properly considering the game's mechanics or the player base's needs.

[crushcircuit]

22 minutes ago, adminaaassh said:

Yes, as I mentioned at the beginning of my post, this was written in a state of both anger and rationality.

Let me explain my situation. In the past, I would stay up until 2 or 3 AM just to wait for their updates. Since I’m in China, their updates usually happen at around 2:30 AM for us. I’ve waited many times, but most of the time, I ended up disappointed.

Lately, their development has been incredibly lazy. Take the Year of the Snake update as an example:

• They only added one lantern for the New Year event.

• They simply added a reskinned Depths Worm to the ground.

That’s it. It’s all extremely half-hearted.

I can give more examples:

• The Void Mask Rock Lobster bug, where they could infinitely reproduce underground, remained unfixed for over two months.

• The Icker Preserve Kit bug, which caused the game to crash, also went unfixed for more than two months.

One more thing:

I feel like a vicious cycle is about to form again, so I need to clarify something. Please do not twist my words into something extreme.

I’ve been very careful with my wording—most of my statements use phrases like "some people" or "some players say this". Maybe you didn’t notice, or maybe something was lost in translation, but I am not outright mocking everyone in the forum.

We are all rational people. There are good and bad people in this world—that’s a simple fact, and I am well aware of it.

what i said was not directed towards you personally. you are clearly trying not to take out your anger on other people, and i greatly respect that. i don't disagree with what you've said, either.

the only thing i "disagree" with is that i struggle to think of anybody that blindly agrees with klei's every decision. a vast majority of people are really, really aggressive to the developers. i don't think what you described is a nonexistent problem, but i don't think that "developer worship" is the reasoning.

8 minutes ago, adminaaassh said:

Their half-hearted attitude towards the Lunar New Year event is plain for everyone to see.

Even the Year of the Pig King update, which was once considered the laziest event update, at least introduced a bunch of new food items and added a new mechanic.

But this year’s Year of the Snake update? It’s ridiculously lazy.

All I can say is...

Also, last year's Lunar New Year update was basically just a copy-paste of the Year of the Rat event.

i cannot pitch in on this because the lunar new year isnt something that i celebrate, therefore meaning that its not nearly as important to me as it is to you. however, i do want to point out that this specific topic is tangential to your original post.

[YouKnowWho142]

Just now, adminaaassh said:

Moreover, I can give you another example: the issue where baby beefalo would no longer grow when off-screen—they actually had to fix it twice! Why do you think that happened? The only explanation is that they didn't properly test it after the first fix… And to make things worse, they even mentioned the fix in the patch notes the first time, only for the problem to resurface again…

now you're just criticizing for the sake of criticizing, this isn't an uncommon occurrence in any game. It sounds like you should be working on the game instead.

[adminaaassh]

I’ve already suggested related solutions. I hope people can really read through the post and think about why the game environment is poor. When comparing to Terraria or Minecraft, why does the forum often spiral into endless cycles of criticism and insults? And then, after that, we end up with situations like the next Wendy controversy. I remember there was also a debate about Wolfgang before. Perhaps we should also consider how the Wendy issue happened because this is a recent event that is still relevant.

7 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

now you're just criticizing for the sake of criticizing, this isn't an uncommon occurrence in any game. It sounds like you should be working on the game instead.

There’s nothing more to say between us. In fact, I actually anticipated this kind of remark from you. Let me put it this way and add a little more: Since you understand games so well, why don’t you develop your own game? You should focus on studying, work hard, and in the future, apply to join Klei in Canada, then change the current situation. I guess it’s something like that. I don’t really have any comments on this.

[YouKnowWho142]

3 minutes ago, adminaaassh said:

I’ve already suggested related solutions. I hope people can really read through the post and think about why the game environment is poor. When comparing to Terraria or Minecraft, why does the forum often spiral into endless cycles of criticism and insults? And then, after that, we end up with situations like the next Wendy controversy. I remember there was also a debate about Wolfgang before. Perhaps we should also consider how the Wendy issue happened because this is a recent event that is still relevant.

 

Ignoring the fact that comparing game communities is problematic, the forum is NOT the entire community. A lot of the people I talk to outside of the forums are completely happy with the way DST has been. It doesn't make what the forumites think irrelevant, but it does suggest that it doesn't quite represent the whole.

[crushcircuit]

i don't think this further elaboration is necessary. your original post was already well thought-out and constructed, and the numerous side tangents feel like they're diluting what the focus of your post was.

when i make threads on here i tend to log off of the forums for a couple of hours to let things simmer, and to prevent myself from becoming worked up over it. i feel like this could be beneficial to you. (the fact that you stay up so late for the game updates is also rather concerning.)

i suppose none of that is my business though, i simply wanted to mention it.

[adminaaassh]

13 minutes ago, crushcircuit said:

我认为没有必要进一步阐述。你的原始帖子已经经过深思熟虑和构建，许多侧面切线感觉就像它们正在稀释你帖子的重点。

当我在这里发帖时，我通常会退出论坛几个小时，让事情慢慢发展，并防止自己为此感到烦恼。我觉得这可能对你有好处。（您熬夜如此晚才获得游戏更新的事实也相当令人担忧。

我想这些都不关我的事，我只是想提一下。

Here’s the translation of your message:

"Thank you very much. Replying to posts in the forum really makes me frustrated, but I still need to say a few things before I go to sleep. In China, there’s something called 'soft control of reviews,' which often happens when fans unconditionally support a singer. When you give negative feedback, they always try to defend the singer from various angles. For example, a video blogger might say a certain singer sings badly and analyze it from a professional perspective, such as the voice, vocal cords, and training methods. Then, the singer's fans might say, 'My friends and I think it sounds great,' or 'The singer is very handsome,' or 'Who said that? I didn’t see it.' They use this approach to reduce negative comments in the comment section of critical videos and restore some of the singer’s image. Some of this is spontaneous, while some is backed by economic teams. People who hold the same views will often gather together. This kind of behavior can lead to things like ignoring some of the raised issues, or other effects...

What I want to say is: Please rest assured, I won't be swayed. The issues I’ve raised, I’m very certain are the correct and core issues. Of course, I also respect their views, and I’m not saying they are just those fans, it’s just that in my personal opinion, the situation is somewhat similar. The replies just make me feel exhausted, so I’ve decided not to respond to certain comments anymore. After this, I’m going to sleep. Thank you for your concern."

Let me know if you'd like me to adjust anything!

I feel like the developers might be influenced by things like this, leading them to believe that what they’re doing isn’t really a big problem. Personally, I think there’s a real possibility of that happening.

When there’s constant reinforcement of the idea that everything is fine, or when feedback is ignored or dismissed, it can create a bubble where they don’t fully realize the issues from the player community’s perspective.

[Dr. Safety]

I'm not gonna go through and reply to each comment that I'm referencing because I'm too lazy. I'll address the 2 points that I actually have something to say about.

Klei's communication is lackluster. I absolutely agree, and I genuinely think it needs to be better. For this reason we need to be respectful when they actually do communicate, especially in regards to content that is still being worked on. Not to bring up old drama, but it was so disheartening to see a bunch of people insulting and threatening a single dev because they were the one to actually communicate in this past beta. We as a community don't deserve communication if that is how we act when we don't like what they communicate.

Second point, the unremarkable release of Year of the Depthworm. It was a minor event that unfortunately required dev attention that just wasn't there at the time. The devs were more focused on the skill trees, as they should have been. 

Off topic, I don't know why people are judging you for staying up late when updates drop. I don't know what it is like to have a game release update in the middle of the night. I know I'd probably stay up late from time to time to see it. Some people also have later classes or work schedule as well, so it's not as ridiculous as some people are making it out to be.

[gaymime]

38 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Ignoring the fact that comparing game communities is problematic, the forum is NOT the entire community. A lot of the people I talk to outside of the forums are completely happy with the way DST has been. It doesn't make what the forumites think irrelevant, but it does suggest that it doesn't quite represent the whole.

yeah, outside of the forums people have generally been really happy with all the updates and only complain about crashes/bugs themselves(and not really all that angrily most of the time). forums are generally an aggregate of the most intense players of any game this one included

[hyoton123]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

Off topic, I don't know why people are judging you for staying up late when updates drop. I don't know what it is like to have a game release update in the middle of the night. I know I'd probably stay up late from time to time to see it. Some people also have later classes or work schedule as well, so it's not as ridiculous as some people are making it out to be.

I don’t think it’s ridiculous, but it’s not klei’s fault they launch patches when they do, and there is no real advantage to doing so, and I do think disappointment is a pretty obvious outcome if people do that.