A Way To Change Bee-Hives to Killer Bee-Hives

[Y0sH]

I created a post in Beta Here about how reliant Wortox seems to be on Killer-Bee biomes and after playing the official branch this issue is even more exasperated. This issue doesn't include player-built soul farms before you mention it and even if you do there isn't a player-built soul farm in the game that can net you the amount of souls this single biome can so early (I challenge you to find one). 

I think there should be a mechanic to either create Killer-Bee Hives or Morph Bee-Hives to the Killer variant or increase the chance of having the biome generate. I don't care if it's a drop from BeeQueen that you can then apply to a bee-hives to change or an actual craft. Wortox has many ways to gain souls in his Skilltree update but even more ways to use them and a World gen without a Killer-Bee biome makes using his kit feel unnecessarily costly. Spider quarry is a decent way to gain souls until your decoy or soul hits a spider standing on a T3 Spider Den then you're stunlocked by Spider Warriors. I also understand this effects Willows too but as far as to what degree I'm not sure.

TLDR: Killer-Bee Biomes need an increase to generation or way to build the hives themselves. 

take a shot for every time you read the word "bee" lol

 

[Wawchik]

17 minutes ago, Y0sH said:

There isn't a player-built soul farm in the game that can net you the amount of souls this single biome can so early (I challenge you to find one). 

Spider farm with statues (naughty build) does well enough and you can put it on your base. You might say it's not as early game as just killing bees, but you probably will have enough resources to set it up when you got your soul jars crafted

And while I understand the issue, your suggestion just makes him even more reliant on bees. And I wouldn't say Willow is forced to make new worlds until she gets a killer bee biome either unless you want to spam spells and she gets more embers from bigger mobs anyway. Just setting up a farm of 3-4 spider nests should be enough to sustain Wortox forever and let Willow always carry a stack of embers 

[Radicaljoe]

3 minutes ago, Wawchik said:

Spider farm with statues (naughty build) does well enough and you can put it on your base. 

I imagine a lot of people don't go that route just because the looming threat of having to deal with spider queens, and also with its inconsistency. Like, spider dens go through level 1-3, with way more souls and such at level 3. killer bees are always 6(I think) and respawn really fast compared to spiders.

also spiders cause a LOT of lag

 

[Wawchik]

Just now, Radicaljoe said:

I imagine a lot of people don't go that route just because the looming threat of having to deal with spider queens, and also with its inconsistency. Like, spider dens go through level 1-3, with way more souls and such at level 3. killer bees are always 6(I think) and respawn really fast compared to spiders.

Spider farm has it's own benefits and spiders queens get damaged by like half of their health when there's 3-4 dens, so if you put more they die too. Killer bees are better if you want souls quick, but most of the time you'll probably just keep 2-3 jars full of souls so you won't really need that many. 

[Y0sH]

14 minutes ago, Wawchik said:

Spider farm with statues (naughty build) does well enough and you can put it on your base. You might say it's not as early game as just killing bees, but you probably will have enough resources to set it up when you got your soul jars crafted

And while I understand the issue, your suggestion just makes him even more reliant on bees. And I wouldn't say Willow is forced to make new worlds until she gets a killer bee biome either unless you want to spam spells and she gets more embers from bigger mobs anyway. Just setting up a farm of 3-4 spider nests should be enough to sustain Wortox forever and let Willow always carry a stack of embers 

I've created this farm a ton of times, its the "plant 10+ spider eggs on a dock then block with statues" one. It's more inconsistent than just bees and requires you to go to moon quay get dock BP. Setting up 3-4 spider nest won't come close to filling up a 40 soul capacity jar in a timely manner in fact I'm willing to bet you wouldn't fill a soul jar at all with only 3-4 spider nests in a day. I can literally get 40+ souls from killer-bee biomes in about 8 seconds. I don't think being able to create Killer-bee hives makes Wortox even more reliant on bees if anything it sheds a light on how many mobs in this game don't spawn in numbers anywhere close to that of those in the Killer-Bee biome. If a mob like splumonkeys were as accessible and spawned in numbers like bees I would even welcome that. When you start getting more into end game moving statues, celestial altars, jumping back and forth to ruins, etc.. you start to see the glaring differences between worlds without a killer bee biome and those that do.

[Wawchik]

2 minutes ago, Y0sH said:

I've created this farm a ton of times, its the "plant 10+ spider eggs on a dock then block with statues" one. It's more inconsistent than just bees and requires you to go to moon quay get dock BP. Setting up 3-4 spider nest won't come close to filling up a 40 soul capacity jar in a timely manner in fact I'm willing to bet you wouldn't fill a soul jar at all with only 3-4 spider nests in a day. I can literally get 40+ souls from killer-bee biomes in about 8 seconds. I don't think being able to create Killer-bee hives makes Wortox even more reliant on bees if anything it sheds a light on how many mobs in this game don't spawn in numbers anywhere close to that of those in the Killer-Bee biome. If a mob like splumonkeys were as accessible and spawned in numbers like bees I would even welcome that. When you start getting more into end game moving statues, celestial altars, jumping back and forth to ruins, etc.. you start to see the glaring differences between worlds without a killer bee biome and those that do.

How many souls do you spend each day teleporting?

[Radicaljoe]

9 minutes ago, Wawchik said:

How many souls do you spend each day teleporting?

I probably spend at least 30 a day teleporting around, and that might be a low ball estimate.
in my world I had a killer bee biome and I was there maybe every 2-3 days.

[Wawchik]

2 minutes ago, Radicaljoe said:

I probably spend at least 30 a day teleporting around, and that might be a low ball estimate.
in my world I had a killer bee biome and I was there maybe every 2-3 days.

Ok, yeah, I just play Wortox differently, I don't use this many souls to teleport every day 

[erick was right]

4 minutes ago, Wawchik said:

Ok, yeah, I just play Wortox differently, I don't use this many souls to teleport every day 

then you play him not optimally, 30 is still low amount 

[Wawchik]

Just now, erick was right said:

then you play him not optimally, 30 is still low amount 

Well, I didn't play skill tree Wortox much, but was basing my replies of of my friend's experience. So sorry if I'm spreading misinformation

[JaxckLl]

Seconded. In long running worlds, especially multiplayer ones, bee hives do not last. It would be great if we had some way of regenerating the bee biomes, perhaps by killing Bee Wueen like how we can regenerate the ruins by killing Fuelweaver. It would make killing her less centralizing (as there would be more Wax to go around) while also more rewarding (as there would be more Wax to go around).

The other direction to go is to allow the player the ability to create nests directly. This is a simpler way to go than reworking Bee Queen (something which I feel is necessary regardless. That fight is very dull & can be quite frustrating without any cheese or additional players), but it doesn't solve the issue of other players coming & stealing the Wax. Being able to make wild Bee nests would also draw into question why we can't make other kinds of wild nests, such as Marotter Dens, Catcoon Dens, Tallbird Nests, Frog Ponds, Eel Ponds, Bat Caves, Spider Stalagmites, or Tidy-Holes. I do find it kind of strange that we can make Bunnymen & Pigmen farms wherever, but we can't do the same for more passive mobs. We can move Spiders, we can sort of move Bees, we can move (but not make) Marotter Dens & Tallbird Nests. It would be nice if there was a bit more consistency OR world regrowth handled these mobs better.

[Radicaljoe]

20 minutes ago, Wawchik said:

Ok, yeah, I just play Wortox differently, I don't use this many souls to teleport every day 

I'm just lazy tbh, it's faster to jump around and collect souls than it is to walk all the way from A to B. 

[ShadowDuelist]

I think killer bee biomes are as much as a blessing for wortox/willow as reed traps were for wickerbottom back in the day. It’s unreliable to get them, but when you do, makes your character a lot stronger with much less effort.

For any other situation Wortox would need to work, setting up bunnymen and spiders, bee boxes, butterflies near lava, pigs near ponds, etc. It sort of balances it out.
 

I wouldn’t mind if we could craft a killer bee box, for example. That respawns killers bees a lot faster than a regular bee box respawns bees, while still not being as good as the wild thing.

[WilsonHiggs]

I want them but to make the world look less empty and have more variety, not to guaranteed repetitive and cheap Gameplay loops 

[Walrusst]

What if beehives had offspring renewal while bee queen is dead, with a bit of a karmic twist to it.
injured bee hives are more likely to renew killer bees (+Adding health stage graphics for the nests to make it more manageable.)

It only happens within a short radius of bee queens nest, but by injuring the hives you can make your own bee hell.
(You can seed this process with a bee box if you somehow extinct the bees, as a way to prevent griefers from causing a  permanent extinction event.)

That way its more coincidental that it helps wortox and it mostly serves to prevent a biome from losing its theming.
I will say that if you have soul decoy bombs, frog hell is more or less equivalent to killer bees. Its really hard to have nothing you can play with, so I am not bothered. You have to really try hard to have nothing you can work with....

Hell just harvesting the bee boxes works fine as a way to get souls, since the bees that attack you can still be decoy bombed to get souls and you are gathering resources for the team. Wortox doesn't really need creativity for the 40 souls a day loop if you can just use the ability to kill things by simply dodging properly.

[YouKnowWho142]

slight tangent but i HATE farming bees for souls. Even outside of the tedium of soul farms, the idea of being this imp that collects the souls of creatures to consume, only for the "souls" you have collected is literally just 200 angry bees, is extremely lame and honestly kills the idea of Wortox for me. same with how I hate that Wendy is supposed to be doing these nightmare rituals to power up the dead, but instead of performing a sacrifice on a live animal in reality she's just crushing like 40 butterflies in her hands

[gaymime]

59 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

slight tangent but i HATE farming bees for souls. Even outside of the tedium of soul farms, the idea of being this imp that collects the souls of creatures to consume, only for the "souls" you have collected is literally just 200 angry bees, is extremely lame and honestly kills the idea of Wortox for me. same with how I hate that Wendy is supposed to be doing these nightmare rituals to power up the dead, but instead of performing a sacrifice on a live animal in reality she's just crushing like 40 butterflies in her hands

i mean... to be fair butterflies are live animals

[YouKnowWho142]

18 minutes ago, gaymime said:

i mean... to be fair butterflies are live animals

I mean I guess but the idea of performing sacrificial rituals is a lot less interesting when you’re just squashing tiny insects

[gaymime]

Just now, YouKnowWho142 said:

I mean I guess but the idea of performing sacrificial rituals is a lot less interesting when you’re just squashing tiny insects

which i suppose is fair but also if they scream like they did in solo ds then that is still too hardcore for me

[Owlrust]

Maybe if enough bees from a hive pollinate Evil Flowers?

To turn them back you could probably feed the hive Royal Jelly.

[Well-met]

you'd think haunting would do exactly this.

[GimplyGoose]

Maybe grumbles leftover after a bee queen could plant themselves to eventually become a killer bee hive? Maybe it could even work with Wickerbottom's book somehow as well?

[JaxckLl]

3 hours ago, WilsonHiggs said:

I want them but to make the world look less empty and have more variety, not to guaranteed repetitive and cheap Gameplay loops 

Agreed. Nothing looks sillier on a map than a bee biome after people have access to Bundling Wraps. There's just nothing there lol.

13 minutes ago, GimplyGoose said:

Maybe grumbles leftover after a bee queen could plant themselves to eventually become a killer bee hive? Maybe it could even work with Wickerbottom's book somehow as well?

I suggested it earlier in the thread, but have Bee Queen refresh the bee biome the same way Fuelweaver refreshes the Ruins. I don't hate that Grumble Bee idea, but then how do you deal with Wicker's Grumbles?

2 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

slight tangent but i HATE farming bees for souls. Even outside of the tedium of soul farms, the idea of being this imp that collects the souls of creatures to consume, only for the "souls" you have collected is literally just 200 angry bees, is extremely lame and honestly kills the idea of Wortox for me. same with how I hate that Wendy is supposed to be doing these nightmare rituals to power up the dead, but instead of performing a sacrifice on a live animal in reality she's just crushing like 40 butterflies in her hands

Yeah it does feel kind of strange that the soul of a sentient pigman is the same as the soul of a worker drone.

[Cheggf]

Don't Starve players when they need to spend 20 seconds to be able to save 40 minutes of walking from teleporting instead of spending 2 seconds to be able to save 40 minutes of walking. 

[DVGMedia]

beequeen could end up working like crab king. where her hive respawns the killer bee nests that spawn near it.