Character Synergies Question

[Dr. Safety]

Just wanted to get the community perspective. I know that the idea character synergies as a whole are generally liked. For example, Wormwood + Wortox have pretty good synergy with each other that is universally agreed upon to be healthy. Wormwood can make AOE damaging items to help Wortox collect souls more conveniently, and produce living logs. Wortox can heal Wormwood to make up for Wormwood's downside. Both have something in their kit that helps the other.

However, the synergy of Maxwell and Wickerbottom are a topic of debate. Some people argue that it is a good synergy, some people disagree. The reasons for this synergy to have volatile reactions could be for a couple reasons:

1. It is one-way, meaning that Maxwell gets more out of it, while Wickerbottom only gets whatever convenience that comes with not having to do actions for your upside.
2. It is all/the majority of Wicker's upsides, meaning that there isn't much benefit to Wicker outside of what Maxwell can do

My question is, in theory, what would the community feel about two characters that have synergy that is the opposite of the points above. What if there were 2 characters that could use a decent chunk of each others upsides with less effectiveness? Not these characters specifically (as I wouldn't want to see this from a lore perspective), but for example, what if Wickerbottom could read the Codex with the same effect as Maxwell but with an increased max sanity cost?

Under this assumption, two people could play these characters without limitations on who could do what, just minor tweaks to the effect. You could also use the portal, and both would technically be "pick and swap", but that's the thing... both would be pick and swap. The player could choose which one they wanted

Note: This isn't to start a debate on Maxwell and Wickerbottom. I'm only asking because I am thinking of what Wagstaff and Charlie's kit would be if they were ever to be added as playable characters, without stepping on the toes of Winona and Maxwell's kit. It would make sense for Wagstaff & Winona to have synergy, and Maxwell & Charlie to have synergy. The question is to what extent, so I want to know what people think.

[YouKnowWho142]

I still don't like it very much, especially when it comes to the usage of codex umbra. Even if you don't regard the major lore reasons why Maxwell would only be able to use it, it still doesn't feel like a genuine synergy. I think a synergy should require the presence of both characters. It's true that Wormwood can make bramble husks for Wortox to help out with soul collection for bees, but unless Wormwood is always around Wortox will eventually run out of husks. Same with how Wigfrid gives others helmets, or Warly gives others food. I don't mind characters sharing items if they are limited in use, but I think it's problematic if other characters gain access to infinite use perks that do not belong to them, and I believe it just strips a lot of the identity of a lot of characters in general

It's the same reason I partially feel like there's nothing wrong with Maxwell using Wicker's books if he just wasn't able to restore them in the bookshelf, since it would still require Wickerbottom's presence but allow Maxwell to "synergize" with her

Just taking perks from one character and giving them to another doesn't come off as synergy, it comes off as just taking other character perks for themself, especially since the Codex umbra is 90% of what Maxwell does similarly Wicker's reliance on books

[DegenerateFurry]

Wurt's synergy with Wickerbottom? Perfectly fine. Wickerbottom doesn't really get anything out of it, but Wurt being able to gain (or lose) sanity by reading her books is a neat flavor thing and can be helpful to the Wurt for her sanity management. It also doesn't make Wurt infringe upon Wickerbottom's niche. 

Maxwell just outright replaces Wickerbottom once she's made the books and a bookcase or two and that's a problem. He shouldn't be able to use her books for their effects, period - he should just lose sanity from them. This would actually benefit him since it gives him a quick, infinitely renewable, and reliable way to tank his sanity for nightmare fuel farming. 

[Dr. Safety]

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Wurt's synergy with Wickerbottom? Perfectly fine. Wickerbottom doesn't really get anything out of it, but Wurt being able to gain (or lose) sanity by reading her books is a neat flavor thing and can be helpful to the Wurt for her sanity management. It also doesn't make Wurt infringe upon Wickerbottom's niche. 

Maxwell just outright replaces Wickerbottom once she's made the books and a bookcase or two and that's a problem. He shouldn't be able to use her books for their effects, period - he should just lose sanity from them. This would actually benefit him since it gives him a quick, infinitely renewable, and reliable way to tank his sanity for nightmare fuel farming. 

Right, but what do you feel about 2 characters, let's say they are both brand new for the sake of example, who both have parts of their kit that they can share with the other one. Not their whole kit, but enough to not just be "niche". Characters who are perfectly fine on their own, but together have a lot of overlap and can make each other's kit a lot more convenient

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Wurt's synergy with Wickerbottom? Perfectly fine. Wickerbottom doesn't really get anything out of it, but Wurt being able to gain (or lose) sanity by reading her books is a neat flavor thing and can be helpful to the Wurt for her sanity management. It also doesn't make Wurt infringe upon Wickerbottom's niche. 

Maxwell just outright replaces Wickerbottom once she's made the books and a bookcase or two and that's a problem. He shouldn't be able to use her books for their effects, period - he should just lose sanity from them. This would actually benefit him since it gives him a quick, infinitely renewable, and reliable way to tank his sanity for nightmare fuel farming. 

Literally everyone outright replaces Wickerbottom once she's used her books since 99% of her power comes from one and done things that don't need to keep being used over time. 

[YouKnowWho142]

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

Literally everyone outright replaces Wickerbottom once she's used her books since 99% of her power comes from one and done things that don't need to keep being used over time. 

That isn’t the point. The point is that her niche is taken from her by Maxwell. It doesn’t matter if it’s “one and done” 

[IAmAFurrz]

15 hours ago, Dr. Safety said:

Some people argue that it is a good synergy, some people disagree

they dont work together, wickerbottom merely produces books for maxwell to leech off of it

[Dr. Safety]

9 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

they dont work together, wickerbottom merely produces books for maxwell to leech off of it

I get that. My question is what if there were two characters who essentially leech off of each other? Would there be this much disagreement and debate?

[Walrusst]

One funny way to fix this would not to have a single bidirectional leechoff here.

 

NO NO NO. Thats too simple. What if we make the character leeching cyclic instead? So maxy leeches off wickerbottom, someone else can just straight up leech off maxy, then wilson leeches off them and finally we sneak something into wilson that wickerbottom is perfectly set up to leech off of.

Like there is just this ring.  A loop. And when we close that loop we ask what did we gain from this. Deep in our heart of hearts we know somewhere maxy is screaming in permashadowheck that the codex just straight up sprouted legs and left him.
This warms our hearts.

[Masked Koopa]

23 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Maxwell just outright replaces Wickerbottom once she's made the books and a bookcase or two and that's a problem. He shouldn't be able to use her books for their effects, period - he should just lose sanity from them. This would actually benefit him since it gives him a quick, infinitely renewable, and reliable way to tank his sanity for nightmare fuel farming. 

I honestly think it speaks more toward how bland Wickerbottom is that her entire character, niche, purpose, etc is to press m2 on a resource spawning book. I do not think Wicker is helped whatsoever by being the character whom you switch to to farm resources, and then immediately switch off of once you are done. Id prefer Wicker be balanced in such a way that every character could hypothetically read her books and she'd still be a fun and interesting pick.

IMO what Wicker most sorely needs is a much, much faster casting time on the books she has that actually have day-to-day applicability (Arachnaphobia, Pyrokinetics, Tempering Temperatures, etc), as well as a way to carry many books and repair them on the go (or just bump up the number of uses on the more ordinary books).

Add in some more books that focus more on the short term (like maybe a version of on tentacles that instead creates a temporary field of shadow tentacles at your cursor) and I think she'd just be better purely through not committing a slot for each book, having a fast casting time and not bottoming out her sanity every time she uses a book that provides an at best minor advantage. 
 

41 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

I get that. My question is what if there were two characters who essentially leech off of each other? Would there be this much disagreement and debate?

I honestly think the best way to handle a character is to make them the clearly best user of their particular chosen niche, so in my eyes as many characters as possible should have synergies. A character who can help out their team is a more valued presence in multiplayer, and makes the character objectively better. It's why I really enjoy the inclusion of items like the Clever Disguise, Wigfrid's Helmets and Spears, Woodie's cane and Wes' speed Balloon, etc. As long as the character provides a significant boon to the playstyle they allow, they're going to be worth playing to anyone who values that trait the most.

[DegenerateFurry]

4 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

I honestly think it speaks more toward how bland Wickerbottom is that her entire character, niche, purpose, etc is to press m2 on a resource spawning book. I do not think Wicker is helped whatsoever by being the character whom you switch to to farm resources, and then immediately switch off of once you are done. Id prefer Wicker be balanced in such a way that every character could hypothetically read her books and she'd still be a fun and interesting pick.

IMO what Wicker most sorely needs is a much, much faster casting time on the books she has that actually have day-to-day applicability (Arachnaphobia, Pyrokinetics, Tempering Temperatures, etc), as well as a way to carry many books and repair them on the go (or just bump up the number of uses on the more ordinary books).

Add in some more books that focus more on the short term (like maybe a version of on tentacles that instead creates a temporary field of shadow tentacles at your cursor) and I think she'd just be better purely through not committing a slot for each book, having a fast casting time and not bottoming out her sanity every time she uses a book that provides an at best minor advantage. 
 

I agree with your points here, especially about giving Wickerbottom books with an instant or very fast cast time that have day-to-day use, but I do still think she needs to have that as a thing exclusive to her. Maxwell could just steal those books too, is the thing? No matter what books you give Wickerbottom, she's always gonna be a swap character because of Maxwell being able to read them.

[Masked Koopa]

1 minute ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Maxwell could just steal those books too, is the thing? No matter what books you give Wickerbottom, she's always gonna be a swap character because of Maxwell being able to read them.

I mean Maxwell would have to take a hit of like 70 sanity or whatever with a delayed casting time. Like to be clear, my take was that Wickerbottom in particular should have book-dependant casting times, where Maxwell would keep the current static one. I genuinely think that alone would suffice to make those books borderline useless on Maxwell, but you could also tack on a durability penalty, or bump up the casting time above what it is currently.

And that's not even mentioning that he'd have to commit an inventory slot where Wicker wouldn't if given something like a Bookbag to store several books at once. You could even give it a "spell menu" akin to what the Codex or Willow has rn as a way to use the books within quickly and easily.

[DegenerateFurry]

6 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

I mean Maxwell would have to take a hit of like 70 sanity or whatever with a delayed casting time. Like to be clear, my take was that Wickerbottom in particular should have book-dependant casting times, where Maxwell would keep the current static one. I genuinely think that alone would suffice to make those books borderline useless on Maxwell, but you could also tack on a durability penalty, or bump up the casting time above what it is currently.

And that's not even mentioning that he'd have to commit an inventory slot where Wicker wouldn't if given something like a Bookbag to store several books at once. You could even give it a "spell menu" akin to what the Codex or Willow has rn as a way to use the books within quickly and easily.

Oh, okay. I could see people picking Wickerbottom over Maxwell with those conditions. 

To add onto it: The End is Nigh needs to get something Wickerbottom-exclusive where you can cast it at your mouse cursor instead of just striking everything with lightning randomly. 

[IAmAFurrz]

12 hours ago, Dr. Safety said:

I get that. My question is what if there were two characters who essentially leech off of each other? Would there be this much disagreement and debate?

before winona's skill tree, she was a character that got leeched off by everyone because she is essentially made to be that way, build machines then be swapped off. you can work WITH her to make the catapults shine but theres no reason to stay as winona after the catapults are done being built, they are one-and-done. the skill tree changed it so it can be directed by her for more reward, so its less incentivized (but now shes such a boring character that does everything after 2 sets of catapults are made). people that mained her really hated that fact (pre-skill tree i mean)

theres another kinda similar case of wormwood being able to give living logs, but at least his bramble husks cant last forever without him, as well as his traps/moonshroom skill

i dont think there are no other cases other than wickerbottom now that just have their gimmick completely leeched off of by another character. every other combo you can think of, has the limitation of only the characters themselves can use or make happen, willow has embers/BERNIE!, wendy has abigail, wigfrid with elding spears (tho idk why they made it so no other person can use the weapon, if they really wanted to they can just limit the ability to lightning dash), woodie has lucy/wereforms, maxwell has codex, wanda has backtrek/alarming clock, wortox has souls, walter with slingshit

[IAmAFurrz]

11 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

To add onto it: The End is Nigh needs to get something Wickerbottom-exclusive where you can cast it at your mouse cursor instead of just striking everything with lightning randomly.

could be an interesting change for her, since itd be usable on groups of burnable mobs

[Dr. Safety]

3 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

before winona's skill tree, she was a character that got leeched off by everyone because she is essentially made to be that way, build machines then be swapped off. you can work WITH her to make the catapults shine but theres no reason to stay as winona after the catapults are done being built, they are one-and-done. the skill tree changed it so it can be directed by her for more reward, so its less incentivized (but now shes such a boring character that does everything after 2 sets of catapults are made). people that mained her really hated that fact (pre-skill tree i mean)

theres another kinda similar case of wormwood being able to give living logs, but at least his bramble husks cant last forever without him, as well as his traps/moonshroom skill

i dont think there are no other cases other than wickerbottom now that just have their gimmick completely leeched off of by another character. every other combo you can think of, has the limitation of only the characters themselves can use or make happen, willow has embers/BERNIE!, wendy has abigail, wigfrid with elding spears (tho idk why they made it so no other person can use the weapon, if they really wanted to they can just limit the ability to lightning dash), woodie has lucy/wereforms, maxwell has codex, wanda has backtrek/alarming clock, wortox has souls, walter with slingshit

I agree that characters who have kits that don't require you to play as them to use should be redesigned. My reason for feeling this way is that I really enjoy every character in this game from a lore perspective. I want to make sure that the gameplay reflects how awesome the characters are. I don't want the only reason to pick a character to be because of their story, how they look, etc. I want every character to have a clear purpose to play as them for long periods of time, even with the existence of the Celestial portal.

Pick and swap as an idea goes against that philosophy, as Wickerbottom is really awesome in lore and design, has gameplay that can be replaced by another character. I agree with you on that.

My dilemma and whole reason for creating this thread is that I want to know if this philosophy is common among the community, not just being against pick and swap characters, but my specific reasons for being against it.

I'm trying to think of what Charlie and Wagstaff's kits could be if they were ever added, knowing full well that Winona and Maxwell have similar "skills" to these characters, so some general overlap is to be expected. Whether or not Klei would ever actually do this, I still want to think of the potential. I know that especially in Wagstaff and Winona's case, it's going to be hard to make each of them completely and 100% unique in what they do.

So I was thinking what if they were able to leech off of each other? Not just one-way like Maxwell and Wickerbottom, and also not taking each others' entire kit. But in the instances of overlap, would the community be okay with them being able to use each other's items or should I try to make them as different as possible?

[DegenerateFurry]

8 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

before winona's skill tree, she was a character that got leeched off by everyone because she is essentially made to be that way, build machines then be swapped off. you can work WITH her to make the catapults shine but theres no reason to stay as winona after the catapults are done being built, they are one-and-done. the skill tree changed it so it can be directed by her for more reward, so its less incentivized (but now shes such a boring character that does everything after 2 sets of catapults are made). people that mained her really hated that fact (pre-skill tree i mean)

theres another kinda similar case of wormwood being able to give living logs, but at least his bramble husks cant last forever without him, as well as his traps/moonshroom skill

i dont think there are no other cases other than wickerbottom now that just have their gimmick completely leeched off of by another character. every other combo you can think of, has the limitation of only the characters themselves can use or make happen, willow has embers/BERNIE!, wendy has abigail, wigfrid with elding spears (tho idk why they made it so no other person can use the weapon, if they really wanted to they can just limit the ability to lightning dash), woodie has lucy/wereforms, maxwell has codex, wanda has backtrek/alarming clock, wortox has souls, walter with slingshit

Yeah, Klei's definitely been moving away from swap characters being a thing, and I think that's good. The more unique each character's experience is, the better, but they are still allowing synergy to exist between characters, which is good for a multiplayer game. 

8 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

walter with slingshit

[YouKnowWho142]

5 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

wigfrid with elding spears (tho idk why they made it so no other person can use the weapon, if they really wanted to they can just limit the ability to lightning dash)

Not a huge deal but anyone can use the elding spear. To non-wigfrid characters it does the same damage as a ham bat with a weaker electricity multiplier, so basically useless for its cost, but anyone can use it

unless you meant the dash, which is 100% fair why others can’t use it since is an ability only wigfrid unlocks in her skill tree, it isn’t a base part of the weapon

[JoeW]

5 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

walter with slingshit

For those of you wondering why your posts were moderated. 

 

[Dingle]

30 minutes ago, JoeW said:

For those of you wondering why your posts were moderated. 

 

I was surprised I never got a warning for accidentally spelling "nabsack" wrong, dozens of times.

[YouKnowWho142]

3 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I was surprised I never got a warning for accidentally spelling "nabsack" wrong, dozens of times.

crime against humanity

[Mr Giggio]

On 3/8/2025 at 7:26 PM, Dr. Safety said:

Just wanted to get the community perspective. I know that the idea character synergies as a whole are generally liked. For example, Wormwood + Wortox have pretty good synergy with each other that is universally agreed upon to be healthy. Wormwood can make AOE damaging items to help Wortox collect souls more conveniently, and produce living logs. Wortox can heal Wormwood to make up for Wormwood's downside. Both have something in their kit that helps the other.

However, the synergy of Maxwell and Wickerbottom are a topic of debate. Some people argue that it is a good synergy, some people disagree. The reasons for this synergy to have volatile reactions could be for a couple reasons:

1. It is one-way, meaning that Maxwell gets more out of it, while Wickerbottom only gets whatever convenience that comes with not having to do actions for your upside.
2. It is all/the majority of Wicker's upsides, meaning that there isn't much benefit to Wicker outside of what Maxwell can do

My question is, in theory, what would the community feel about two characters that have synergy that is the opposite of the points above. What if there were 2 characters that could use a decent chunk of each others upsides with less effectiveness? Not these characters specifically (as I wouldn't want to see this from a lore perspective), but for example, what if Wickerbottom could read the Codex with the same effect as Maxwell but with an increased max sanity cost?

Under this assumption, two people could play these characters without limitations on who could do what, just minor tweaks to the effect. You could also use the portal, and both would technically be "pick and swap", but that's the thing... both would be pick and swap. The player could choose which one they wanted

Note: This isn't to start a debate on Maxwell and Wickerbottom. I'm only asking because I am thinking of what Wagstaff and Charlie's kit would be if they were ever to be added as playable characters, without stepping on the toes of Winona and Maxwell's kit. It would make sense for Wagstaff & Winona to have synergy, and Maxwell & Charlie to have synergy. The question is to what extent, so I want to know what people think.

I stand for Wicker x Max being as good in synergy as Wormie x Wortox and people that dont see it cuz they too busy trying to label one over another are missing.

Its an INCREDIBLE duo that completes each other SO MUCH that putting into a run to try yourselves can make wonders for some good insight.

First of all Wicker is so bothered by shadows reading stuff that she swins on nightmare fuel - thats the bread and butter of Max. When she wants a break he can read the books instead. 

Tentacles and shadow prison MELT bosses.

Max servants can pick all the resources Wicker books can grow.

Gathering chores like mining and choping are far from being a strong suit in Wicker which Max can work around for both.

Max can fight the tentacles for the spots and rush boards enough for magic and base while she spelunking for paper even throught sketches and blueprints cuz cartography's desk is as easy as a torch for the Magician who swins in boards and living logs really early.

They can comunicate inventory using shadow Chester and Magician's chest.

I LOVE those two together and honestly  had so much fun spelunking with a friend. It can end up having moments like these:

I catch myself laughing at this video often cuz this friend of mine lives in FRANCE while Im Brazilian, just by the fact it has a thousand ping and we still manage to make it work without explorer cracks me up.

 

Characters with support role might feel like they are not "winning" as much but when u put a Warly x Wolfgang when electric damage benefits Wolfie way more it doesnt take the credit of how good as a support Warly was and for me its a example that is not close but  close enough to trace a line of comparison. This replacing thing doesnt fit my mindset honestly. Both of the players are playing. 
That being said I do agree Wicker can be in a better place and having unicque perks about her own books to make us have more of a reason to stick around with her indeed.

I have faith Klei is working on it for her skill tree. We will see what future brings. Peace.

 

[IAmAFurrz]

8 hours ago, JoeW said:

For those of you wondering why your posts were moderated

oh lmaoooo i was wondering why it was 

[IAmAFurrz]

Just now, Insaginary said:

Wouldn't have surprised me if it wasn't an accident, to be honest; you've expressed how much you hate the character. 

lol yea fr, this was just such a bad typo

[IAmAFurrz]

Just now, Insaginary said:

@IAmAFurrz I do wonder, however: what characters DO you like?

i like wilson, willow, wortox, wendy (the most atm), wolfgang, wickerbottom, wormwood

basically characters that aren't one and done set up characters. i enjoy the progression and like doing stuff manually

10 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Yeah, Klei's definitely been moving away from swap characters being a thing, and I think that's good. The more unique each character's experience is, the better, but they are still allowing synergy to exist between characters, which is good for a multiplayer game. 

mhm, its why wickerbottom and maxwell is the only leech combo there is left in the game, and why ppl really hope she gets the next skill tree