Post-Update Thoughts: If Skill Items Are Locked Without Points, Shouldn’t Wickerbottom’s Bookshelf Be Too?

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

And so the conclusion you come to isn't that Wickerbottom's entire kit is nothing but making books, it's that Maxwell is stealing her items? If Wigfrid didn't have any of her combat related things and all she did was make various pieces of equipment would you be clamoring for that equipment to become exclusive to Wigfrid instead of Wigfrid being able to do things except make equipment? 

None of Wickerbottom's business tbh. Maxwell's power creeping need to be limited and nerfed.

[YouKnowWho142]

37 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

And so the conclusion you come to isn't that Wickerbottom's entire kit is nothing but making books, it's that Maxwell is stealing her items? If Wigfrid didn't have any of her combat related things and all she did was make various pieces of equipment would you be clamoring for that equipment to become exclusive to Wigfrid instead of Wigfrid being able to do things except make equipment? 

I mean, that isn’t a reasonable comparison. Wigfrid has a lot of things she can do outside of making equipment which you directly acknowledged. The fact that you have to strip away wigfrid’s innate damage increase, resistance, lifesteal, and songs to compare her to wicker kinda proves the problem with this statement. Wickerbottom entirely revolves around books since it is her only upside outside of knowing things at a science machine level (a specialty that is, again, covered by one of her books anyway). Wickerbottom as she is currently, as mentioned, does nothing but make books and read them, which is fine in itself (plenty of characters revolve around their items) but Maxwell is able to read them along with every other aspect of his kit, making him purely a better wickerbottom and relegating wickerbottom to swap status

[Cheggf]

Just now, YouKnowWho142 said:

I mean, that isn’t a reasonable comparison. Wigfrid has a lot of things she can do outside of making equipment which you directly acknowledged. The fact that you have to strip away wigfrid’s innate damage increase, resistance, lifesteal, and songs proves the problem with this statement. Wickerbottom entirely revolves around books since it is her only upside outside of knowing things at a science machine level (a specialty that is, again, covered by one of her books anyway). Wickerbottom as she is currently does nothing but make books and read them, which is fine in itself but Maxwell is able to read them along with every other aspect of his kit, making him purely a better wickerbottom and relegating wickerbottom to swap status

That is literally the entire point of the comparison. If Wigfrid didn't have her damage bonus, if Wigfrid didn't have her damage resistance, if Wigfrid didn't have her lifesteal, if Wigfrid didn't have her songs, then she'd be like Wickerbottom where all she has is being able to craft something. So if Wigfrid was in Wickerbottom's shoes, would you prefer undoing the removal of all of the fun stuff she has so she isn't just a character that crafts things, or would you remain consistent with your opinion on Wickerbottom and think that actually it's a good thing she doesn't do anything except craft things so we should just prevent other characters from using her crafts?

The point of the comparison is to point out to you guys what you're having trouble understanding: you are explicitly calling Wickerbottom a boring character who has nothing. I've made Wigfrid a boring character who has nothing so you can see what it's like when you take a fun character and turn them into a boring character, and for some reason you're saying "Well that isn't a fair comparison, you changed things so they're similar. That's now how things are right now".

[YouKnowWho142]

7 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

That is literally the entire point of the comparison. If Wigfrid didn't have her damage bonus, if Wigfrid didn't have her damage resistance, if Wigfrid didn't have her lifesteal, if Wigfrid didn't have her songs, then she'd be like Wickerbottom where all she has is being able to craft something. So if Wigfrid was in Wickerbottom's shoes, would you prefer undoing the removal of all of the fun stuff she has so she isn't just a character that crafts things, or would you remain consistent with your opinion on Wickerbottom and think that actually it's a good thing she doesn't do anything except craft things so we should just prevent other characters from using her crafts?

The point of the comparison is to point out to you guys what you're having trouble understanding: you are explicitly calling Wickerbottom a boring character who has nothing. I've made Wigfrid a boring character who has nothing so you can see what it's like when you take a fun character and turn them into a boring character, and for some reason you're saying "Well that isn't a fair comparison, you changed things so they're similar. That's now how things are right now".

I can’t speak for others but i don’t find wickerbottom boring. I actually really like how she uses her books and that her perks are almost entirely item based, which sets her apart from other characters. My issue is when Maxwell can access what is essentially her perks and objectively do it better. I admit that I partially misread the point you were trying to make, but it highlights to me that she may be considered so unfun because she can so easily be related to Maxwell and his performance with the books. Wigfrid does have equipment that is exclusive to her (that is to say basically garbage if she isn’t the one using them) so in that regard it does seem fair that wickerbottom would have exclusive access to the strongest aspect of her books; the ability to use them infinitely

[Cheggf]

Just now, YouKnowWho142 said:

I can’t speak for others but u don’t find wickerbottom boring. I actually really like how she uses her books and that her perks are almost entirely item based, which sets her apart from other characters. My issue is when Maxwell can access what is essentially her perks and objectively do it better. I admit that I partially misread the point you were trying to make, but it highlights to me that she may be considered so unfun because she can so easily be related to Maxwell and his performance with the books. Wigfrid does have equipment that is exclusive to her (that is to say basically garbage if she isn’t the one using them) so in that regard it does seem fair that wickerbottom would have exclusive access to the strongest aspect of her books; the ability to use them infinitely

If Wigfrid got skills related to her books to set her apart from Maxwell, such as books slowly repairing in her inventory, it would not matter if Maxwell can read them since she would be better at it.

Whether or not Maxwell can read Wickerbottom's books is irrelevant. They do not benefit him very much, the vast majority of her books are either one-and-done things that don't need to be repeatedly used (especially if you're at the point where you're swapping characters multiple times just to cheese things...), or are just worse versions of items. Instead of you guys discussing the fun new things that Wickerbottom could get, new perks related to her books, new books, anything at all that's constructive, you guys just keep complaining that Maxwell can read Wickerbottom's books. It's reductive and pointless. It does not matter that he can read her books, it doesn't help him. The difference between you swapping to Wickerbottom, mass farming all the crap you want with her books, then swapping to Maxwell, or you swapping to Wickerbottom, mass crafting all the books you want, then doing that on Maxwell, is basically nothing. She doesn't really have books that are useful in day to day activities, they're all things for mass farming items. And nobody is discussing books that would be helpful for day to day activities because everyone is too focused on complaining about the weakest perk Maxwell has.

[Steorra]

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Whether or not Maxwell can read Wickerbottom's books is irrelevant. They do not benefit him very much, 

Fine. Then for making Wickerbottom's identity won't be erode by Maxwell, make her bookshelf exclusive to herself. This won't impact to Maxwell and protect Wickerbottom's identity, win-win.

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

everyone is too focused on complaining about the weakest perk Maxwell has.

No? I also voted for nerfing Shadow Prison.

[Edible Coal]

i would like to see wicker books be something that she can regularly use in her day to day activities like qol skills.

theres really no point of using her or her books once ur base is just loaded with 999+ materials 

[Cheggf]

9 hours ago, Edible Coal said:

i would like to see wicker books be something that she can regularly use in her day to day activities like qol skills.

theres really no point of using her or her books once ur base is just loaded with 999+ materials 

Exactly. Wickerbottom doesn't really do anything except obtain materials in bulk. Regardless of Maxwell being able to read her books she's still a "swap character", but Team Fortress players never talk about the actual issues they have with the character since they're too busy doing things like complaining that Maxwell can read her books for no reason, and not understanding very simple comparisons.

[Bumber64]

31 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Exactly. Wickerbottom doesn't really do anything except obtain materials in bulk. Regardless of Maxwell being able to read her books she's still a "swap character", but Team Fortress players never talk about the actual issues they have with the character since they're too busy doing things like complaining that Maxwell can read her books for no reason, and not understanding very simple comparisons.

Both shadow prison and reading Wickerbottom books (on top of his minions) make Maxwell OP, but only one of those actively steals another character's entire role. That's a degree worse than just remembering Wolfgang exists.

[4Rory]

Maxwell has an OP ceiling, and yeah, Shadow Prison trivializes certain fights- he also uses certain late game gear better than others, but his frailty is a significant drawback to less skilled players, and things like being able to read Wickerbottom's books assume the existence of Wickerbottom on server- in a giant, long-term open server maybe this is relevant, or if you craft everything you want with Wickerbottom then switch characters, but the latter is tantamount to cheese, and if players want that experience, that's their choice, and the other is called synergy. It's like complaining that Wortox trivializes Wormwood's biggest drawback- it's true but that in itself does not make either character OP. This feels like another case of "This character is too strong when used under the specific assumptions I am making and ignoring any drawbacks, and I personally don't like that playstyle, and am annoyed that some people do." Like... yeah... okay?

While I'm here- call out that collaborative/single player games don't need to be strictly balanced, so long as everybody feels like they have their own identity/reason to play, and I think that holds.

Wickerbottom would be really bad without access to books, it's like saying "Should Abigail be locked behind skillpoints?" You could do that I guess, but I don't see how it would make the game better or more enjoyable (same difference imo). Whenever she gets her skilltree (assuming that everyone will eventually) it will be interesting to see which new books she unlocks, or other perks- maybe reduced sanity loss reading them, or reduced durability loss/faster recharge, but locking the rest is silly.

[Chewabacca]

20 minutes ago, 4Rory said:

Maxwell has an OP ceiling, and yeah, Shadow Prison trivializes certain fights- he also uses certain late game gear better than others, but his frailty is a significant drawback to less skilled players, and things like being able to read Wickerbottom's books assume the existence of Wickerbottom on server- in a giant, long-term open server maybe this is relevant, or if you craft everything you want with Wickerbottom then switch characters, but the latter is tantamount to cheese, and if players want that experience, that's their choice, and the other is called synergy. It's like complaining that Wortox trivializes Wormwood's biggest drawback- it's true but that in itself does not make either character OP. This feels like another case of "This character is too strong when used under the specific assumptions I am making and ignoring any drawbacks, and I personally don't like that playstyle, and am annoyed that some people do." Like... yeah... okay?

While I'm here- call out that collaborative/single player games don't need to be strictly balanced, so long as everybody feels like they have their own identity/reason to play, and I think that holds.

Wickerbottom would be really bad without access to books, it's like saying "Should Abigail be locked behind skillpoints?" You could do that I guess, but I don't see how it would make the game better or more enjoyable (same difference imo). Whenever she gets her skilltree (assuming that everyone will eventually) it will be interesting to see which new books she unlocks, or other perks- maybe reduced sanity loss reading them, or reduced durability loss/faster recharge, but locking the rest is silly.

Him being able to read Wickerbottom's books isn't some niche strat that you'd have to bend over backwards to disable. The weird thing is that the exception was carved out for him in the first place. And this does take away from Wickerbottom's identity/reason to play because that's all her special abilities aside from early science. Synergy is when two characters can help each other out, not when one of them can just copy everything the other is able to do.

[4Rory]

6 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

Him being able to read Wickerbottom's books isn't some niche strat that you'd have to bend over backwards to disable. The weird thing is that the exception was carved out for him in the first place. And this does take away from Wickerbottom's identity/reason to play because that's all her special abilities aside from early science. Synergy is when two characters can help each other out, not when one of them can just copy everything the other is able to do.

I wasn't aware Maxwell could access books without a Wickerbottom having been on server- I'll need to reread the wiki. Sarcasm aside, I'll grant that it is a largely one-way synergy- though I'm sure Wickerbottom mains don't hate having a strapping young lad to help gather early game resources- but I strongly disagree that it erodes on a character's identity when you require the existence of said character to gain the benefit. You could say that Wickerbottom is overpowered because she makes the most powerful items available for other players to use, including completely trivializing Wurt's sanity management.

[Chewabacca]

1 hour ago, 4Rory said:

I wasn't aware Maxwell could access books without a Wickerbottom having been on server- I'll need to reread the wiki. Sarcasm aside, I'll grant that it is a largely one-way synergy- though I'm sure Wickerbottom mains don't hate having a strapping young lad to help gather early game resources- but I strongly disagree that it erodes on a character's identity when you require the existence of said character to gain the benefit. You could say that Wickerbottom is overpowered because she makes the most powerful items available for other players to use, including completely trivializing Wurt's sanity management.

It does erode Wickerbottom’s identity because once you have all her books, what reason do you have to continue playing as her? Yeah, sure, you need to have had a Wickerbottom there at some point to make the books and bookcase. But there’s no point to continue playing as her long-term past that, and no uniqueness to her playstyle when another character can do literally the same exact things that she does at less cost on top of his own kit.

I’m not really interested in arguing about what counts as “overpowered” or not right now, because that leads to the question of what exactly is balance (that aside: Wurt can already make her sanity management easy simply by having a living fish in her inventory), which is more complicated than an entire character being subsumed into another. “Maxwell is OP and needs a nerf” isn’t the argument here, whether or not you think it’s true, it’s “all characters should have their own functions”. What is the point of this feature in the first place? Would it be fine for all the other characters to use the Codex Umbra? Or Abigail’s flower? Of course not, because they all have their own upsides, downsides, and playstyles that don’t include that.

[4Rory]

If you're going to switch out of Wicker anyway, just switch back when you want to read books again, still no point in playing her when its not book reading time

 

[Chewabacca]

I would prefer that to what we have now, since that’s something you can do with any character. Everyone can swap to Wolfgang for the 2x damage modifier and then swap back, it doesn’t get rid of the unique experience of playing as Wolfgang.

 

[4Rory]

I get that, after making sufficient copies of all the books you want, which yeah you probably didn't gather resources for AS WB, it feels like Maxwell's high sanity regen makes the 250% sanity loss feel mitigated, and at that point WB has no added value- higher health ig, but I just don't accept that frequent character swapping is common, except on very long term worlds or for power players, and I would be annoyed to lose synergy when playing multiplayer. Rather than aggressively seeking to nerf a different character who is reliant on WB for this interaction, or nerf WB herself as well by requiring skill points to use the books she already has, I'd rather push for Wickerbottom to gain more unique perks added with a future skill tree to make playing her from start to finish more rewarding- even less sanity drain from reading books, new books which are skill locked, maybe bonus sanity for eating fresh foods? Ability to augment books? "Bookbag" item which lets her carry 4-6 books in a single slot and recharge at 1/2 speed of bookcase? Just spitballing some ideas.

I'd also be open to Maxwell being an unlockable character, even in DST, after beating Fuelweaver, an elegant nod to Don't Starve, and reward for the accomplishment- but it's hard to sell locking a character for many players who already had him but only play casually- I play with a lot of people, and I think a lot of people who are invested enough to be in the forums forget how much of the player base- even semi active players- have never completed a full year cycle. If you are playing without guides/spoilers, it's not trivial.

[lowercase skye]

1 hour ago, Chewabacca said:

It does erode Wickerbottom’s identity because once you have all her books, what reason do you have to continue playing as her?

Maxwell has 50 less max sanity than Wickerbottom and takes a 2.5x sanity penalty from reading the same books. I'm not sure why this is never brought up in these discussions, it is a major difference between the two characters and one that always makes me stay as Wickerbottom over Maxwell.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, lowercase skye said:

Maxwell has 50 less max sanity than Wickerbottom and takes a 2.5x sanity penalty from reading the same books. I'm not sure why this is never brought up in these discussions, it is a major difference between the two characters and one that always makes me stay as Wickerbottom over Maxwell.

Because Maxwell's passive sanity regeneration means that it's still more convenient using books as Maxwell because books passively regenerate in the library and his sanity is always passively regenerating meaning using her books requires zero effort on the players part if your playing Maxwell. His max sanity being lower is also meaningless in the face of high natural sanity regeneration.

Realistically the only time someone else playing Wicker to make the books is relevant is in eternal autumn servers beyond that though there's not really much reason for a Maxwell player to not use the celestial portal to expand his skills.

[lowercase skye]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Because Maxwell's passive sanity regeneration means that it's still more convenient using books as Maxwell because books passively regenerate in the library and his sanity is always passively regenerating meaning using her books requires zero effort on the players part if your playing Maxwell. His max sanity being lower is also meaningless in the face of high natural sanity regeneration.

I guess I just can't imagine how low one's usage of books would need to be in order for it to ever not be a problem that Maxwell takes a massive unbelievable hit to his sanity with each read. You want to stop an inconvenient rain? -82.5 sanity. A quick tempering temperatures to dry off and cool down/warm up? -82.5 sanity. Lux Aeterna in place of a campfire/fueling a fire pit? -82.5 sanity. A single night of a full moon? -125 sanity. And those are just ones I can think of that I frequently use on the go (minus Apiculture), it's not even mentioning the ones like Horticulture and Silviculture and Everything Encyclopedia that stay at base but still get frequent use.

How little do y'all use books in every day life for this NOT to be a problem?

[Mysterious box]

18 minutes ago, lowercase skye said:

I guess I just can't imagine how low one's usage of books would need to be in order for it to ever not be a problem that Maxwell takes a massive unbelievable hit to his sanity with each read. You want to stop an inconvenient rain? -82.5 sanity. A quick tempering temperatures to dry off and cool down/warm up? -82.5 sanity. Lux Aeterna in place of a campfire/fueling a fire pit? -82.5 sanity. A single night of a full moon? -125 sanity. And those are just ones I can think of that I frequently use on the go (minus Apiculture), it's not even mentioning the ones like Horticulture and Silviculture and Everything Encyclopedia that stay at base but still get frequent use.

How little do y'all use books in every day life for this NOT to be a problem?

The thing is most books don't really need used in every day life Maxwell is usually using the stronger books even many Wickerbottom players aren't using the more niche ones like temperatures or webbing and the others like Horticulture, Silviculture, and the full moon book don't really need to be spammed to be very useful to him. However even then with his passive regen he's still better suited to use them in the day to day than Wickerbottom since he won't have to go out of his way to fix his sanity after like she does.

[Bumber64]

6 hours ago, Chewabacca said:

I would prefer that to what we have now, since that’s something you can do with any character. Everyone can swap to Wolfgang for the 2x damage modifier and then swap back, it doesn’t get rid of the unique experience of playing as Wolfgang.

Swap to Wolfgang, craft dumbells, swap to Maxwell. Become Mighty Maxwell with a 2x damage bonus and marble armor, never look back.

5 hours ago, lowercase skye said:

Maxwell has 50 less max sanity than Wickerbottom and takes a 2.5x sanity penalty from reading the same books. I'm not sure why this is never brought up in these discussions, it is a major difference between the two characters and one that always makes me stay as Wickerbottom over Maxwell.

He's already suited to dealing with it due to his own kit. Especially irrelevant once you obtain bone helm.

[Steorra]

6 hours ago, 4Rory said:

and I would be annoyed to lose synergy when playing multiplayer.

It won't. Maxwell could still read Wickerbottom's books.

[FluffyBun]

I agree. Klei should add like 15 more books to Wickerbottom and lock a couple of books she currently has behind skill points.

[viblym]

Being able to transport books to other players (as well as letting Wurt utilize her books for sanity) is great, once again Wickerbottom and her perks are not the problem here, Maxwell is. Nerfing Wickerbottom or her items to discourage people from swapping to Maxwell doesn't address the problem.