Icker rounds makes walter uninteresting

[WilsonHiggs]

I dont get why they were implemented. What is the point? Mobs and bosses already need a rework because ranged combat but this "maxwell cage without downside" was added.

Brightshade staff and gloomerang already made a lot of fights uninteresting by reducing to 0 any player interaction other than holding F and slightly move away every now and them. Now a character with this problem as half of his kit also removes the need of moving away...

The more stuff is added in this "terraria's like hardmode" the more it looks like easy uninteresting mode

[_mylilsunshine_]

while i do agree that icker round is a bit too powerful and unneeded when slow-down round is here, and can stack. i find it hard to agree when this is the tone of the post.

i would've loved for the icker round to apply an oil-like debuff effect though, like explosive round do more damage, aoe explode more often when hitting an oiled up (paused) enemy, or a combustion round (new ammo to be made, does small on-hit damage and over-time burn damage) would explode (not aoe, just to buff the on-hit damage) and burn for longer/more damage. that would collide with the effect of the horror round but i'm just spit ballin

[Crimson Hollow]

This is part of the charm for me.

[Mysterious box]

31 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

I dont get why they were implemented. What is the point?

The point was mainly convenience icker rounds last longer than slowdown and only need 1 shot compared to slowdown round's 3 the main flaw being them being able to stack with other slowing effects. I also wouldn't mind if icker specifically was given a different effect and the current duration of the skill was transferred to slowdown rounds though since honey already fills the role of more accessible slowdown if people really want it while slowdown rounds is more than enough for a more expensive variant.

[Walrusst]

Admittedly the brightshade/brilliance combo does a good 50% more dps than the icker combos so like (210 versus like, the 140-180 that shadow walter can do,) if you want exciting gameplay you can completely forgo the icker if you want.
Sure it lacks an elemental aspected slingshot part, and it is expensive as hell.

But if the strongest form of walter isn't the slow booring way of playing walter its simple, bypass slowter entirely and go for deepster.

 

 

You don't need a handbook telling you what to do, you make the rules now.

 

Not to say I don't have my worries, the zero-spooling no wind up grips dominating walters progression saddens me, I would love to have a scale grip that tries to compete with the queen bee grip or something since the spooling walter has a much more interesting playstyle imo when paired with the frames. Since commitment and greed is more interesting than stop micro.

[Chewabacca]

Not even most post-rift Walter players on here seem to particularly like how powerful icker rounds are, which sort of suggests that it's an issue with icker, not with ranged combat in general. If Klei removed icker stacking with other slows there wouldn't exactly be a huge backlash.

And yeah lunar Walter might have more DPS but most players are going to assume whatever they see on YouTube is the best strat, and right now that's all shadow Walter with icker. Until someone running lunar Walter makes it big as a DST content creator, everybody is going to think of icker round Walter as the only post-rift Walter that exists.

[Walrusst]

Sadly the guy who was most likely to demonstrate that lunar walter might be stronger than shadow walter sort of rejected the idea of damaging rounds existing and thought the statuses were the only place for the slingshot to go, so we are unlikely to have much in the way of content creators demonstrating there is more depth to him.

(Really, a lot of the walter problems he complained about were more a jelly/glommer grip issue that got further exaggerated by the giant slows.)

[Echsrick]

dit you know you can just throw the bottles with icker in it to pretty much get the same effect? by that logic every character is not interesting because every character can use icker

[Walrusst]

I mean having a stack of 10 icker per icker plus some other QOL for going ham with it with the thulecite frame makes the economy of ickering everything a bit different.

Like sure wanda can delete a fool three times as fast if she ickers something and watches some poor creature.
She.... Doesn't get an hour of icker per icker?

[WilsonHiggs]

36 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

Not even most post-rift Walter players on here seem to particularly like how powerful icker rounds are, which sort of suggests that it's an issue with icker, not with ranged combat in general. If Klei removed icker stacking with other slows there wouldn't exactly be a huge backlash..

Because icker just is even more ridiculous than just ranged combat. Even if was removed, this game isnt prepare for ranged combat 

30 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

dit you know you can just throw the bottles with icker in it to pretty much get the same effect? by that logic every character is not interesting because every character can use icker

Did you know that throwing the bottle breaks the bottle while using it to craft rounds just waste the icker and gives the bottle back?

[Chewabacca]

2 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Because icker just is even more ridiculous than just ranged combat. Even if was removed, this game isnt prepare for ranged combat

Don't really agree with this. Yeah, the slingshot is good against big slow bosses. The slingshot was also good against big slow bosses for years before this, when everyone was calling him complete trash for some reason. The issue with icker is that it makes every boss into a big slow boss.

[Mysterious box]

42 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

I mean having a stack of 30 icker per icker plus some other QOL for going ham with it with the thulecite frame makes the economy of ickering everything a bit different.

Icker gives 15 per at max though since it doesn't consume the bottles it's not that much different also icker doesn't work with the thulecite frame unlike slowdown rounds.

13 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Because icker just is even more ridiculous than just ranged combat. Even if was removed, this game isnt prepare for ranged combat 

It's already too late in the game for us to roll back ranged combat between characters like Willow with her shadow frames, Maxwell with his prison, Walter with his slingshot, even Wendy's gotten a free ranged attack in the form of Abigial's attack at command, then there's followers who are just alternative ranged attacks, and the end game ranged weapons being more accessible versions of ranged combat. I also imagine we'll be getting more ranged combat options via the remaining skill trees, and future post rift and perhaps pre rift content so it's here to stay regardless it's simply up to the devs to adapt the game more for it in the coming years at this point.

[Walrusst]

38 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Because icker just is even more ridiculous than just ranged combat. Even if was removed, this game isnt prepare for ranged combat 

Walter is the #1 character who should have ranged combat though simply because he sanity spirals from making small mistakes in ranged combat.
If you care about the game becoming ready for ranged combat, he is the most sensitive geiger counter for adequate ranged counters. Between the buck, the sanity loss, etc etc.

When the game gets a little longer stuff like the gloomerang will be a readily accessible weapon you can have for a large part of the run, so saying the dedicated ranged character shouldn't have ranged combat when the full game is clearly gearing up for ranged fighting to be a regular element of it is missing out already.

More ranged combat now means more feedback on how to fix it, and ho boy the data on what actually kills walter is something we need now.

 

[Chewabacca]

It's kind of pointless to say that ranged combat is inherently broken and unfun to be honest. If there ever was a point where Klei was going to strip ranged combat from Walter (which, again, he has been capable of doing for years without destroying the game, however slow the base slingshot is) that point has long since passed. If they see a post saying "ranged combat is boring, nerf icker rounds" they're going to assume that the only people who dislike icker rounds are the ones who dislike the slingshot entirely. If they see that even the people who actually enjoy ranged combat find icker rounds unfun, then they might actually do something because reworking icker rounds doesn't require completely changing how a character functions.

[Grove]

At this point, future enemies and bosses should be designed with ranged combat in mind.

We have the slingshot, shadow prison, etc.

Would also be much more fun tbh

[Baark0]

Ranged combat was always going to be pretty boring in a game balanced around melee combat, suddenly giving said ranged combat a way to make the only way enemies have of fighting back (walking up to you) take drastically longer was always going to make it become mind numbing.

[-Variant]

2 hours ago, Echsrick said:

dit you know you can just throw the bottles with icker in it to pretty much get the same effect? by that logic every character is not interesting because every character can use icker

Not even.

Everyone can throw an icker bottle that consumes the bottle entirely, and spawns a blob that lasts half a day that's entirely stationary. The bottle is lobbed in an arc that can easily miss.

Walter's rounds take that ONE icker jar, and turns it into 10 shots, whilst giving you the jar back to reuse.
ONE of these ten rounds can be shot directly at a mob that slows them down and isn't stationary, as it follows the slowed mob, unlike the bottle thrown version.
This fired round is also an entity that slows other nearby mobs that brush against the slowed one, too. They're not that comparable.

[WilsonHiggs]

14 hours ago, Walrusst said:

Walter is the #1 character who should have ranged combat though simply because he sanity spirals from making small mistakes in ranged combat.
If you care about the game becoming ready for ranged combat, he is the most sensitive geiger counter for adequate ranged counters. Between the buck, the sanity loss, etc etc.

When the game gets a little longer stuff like the gloomerang will be a readily accessible weapon you can have for a large part of the run, so saying the dedicated ranged character shouldn't have ranged combat when the full game is clearly gearing up for ranged fighting to be a regular element of it is missing out already.

More ranged combat now means more feedback on how to fix it, and ho boy the data on what actually kills walter is something we need now.

 

I never said that walter shouldn't be ranged. Read my posts

Im saying that enemies needs changes and icker rounds needs to be revisited (and maybe slow rounds too)

14 hours ago, Chewabacca said:

It's kind of pointless to say that ranged combat is inherently broken and unfun to be honest. If there ever was a point where Klei was going to strip ranged combat from Walter (which, again, he has been capable of doing for years without destroying the game, however slow the base slingshot is) that point has long since passed. If they see a post saying "ranged combat is boring, nerf icker rounds" they're going to assume that the only people who dislike icker rounds are the ones who dislike the slingshot entirely. If they see that even the people who actually enjoy ranged combat find icker rounds unfun, then they might actually do something because reworking icker rounds doesn't require completely changing how a character functions.

I enjoy playing walter but i dont enjoy how range combat, planar ranged weapons included, interact with most enemies. Is very bad designed

 

14 hours ago, Debruh said:

At this point, future enemies and bosses should be designed with ranged combat in mind.

We have the slingshot, shadow prison, etc.

Would also be much more fun tbh

The worst part is that, when klei added BS staff and the gloomerang, they added enemies that are really weak against range weapons like brightshades (ridiculous that their roots cant reach the attacker) and the inks...

[CremeLover]

I do share the overall sentiment, Icker rounds are really powerful, but in a bad way, and that's due to how most of the combat works, and how 95%+ of the bosses have 0 counterplay against slowdown and range overall.

What I would do to make Walter's combat still feel good but less Cheesy-like, I would remove the slowdown rounds, and either give a new slingshot upgrade, or a Pioneer's hat upgrade, that works similarly to W.A.R.B.I.S. equipment, and attunes to the boss and gives you extra fire rate. This way, instead of icker rounds and holding F, you dance around the boss to shoot, and you actually attack fast and be able to get good damage in before having to reposition, and it would keep the slingshot not as strong for non-bosses.

This would devalue Cursed Rounds overall, if the enemy does not stay in place, but tbh, the tentacle effect has never been great in the game, and other than Walter or Maxwell, is hard for most characters to get good use of its effect.

[Steorra]

It's surprising me that no one accuse you as "Wendy player".

 

The original argument is not only about icker but also about the slowdown rounds.

I was focused on slowdown rounds before, since it's quite achievable for Walter in early game because now to use Walter do a ruin rush is quite easy. And it would be infinitely supplied once you enter the mid & end game. The most fantastic thing is the slowdown rounds stackable effect is already enough to brings you a "Shadow Prison II" effect, then you could choose Lunar affinity for further more DPS (lunar line has higher DPS than shadow rounds. The slowdown rounds is enough for replacing the icker rounds once you have basically experiences of Walter's gameplay).

Yes icker rounds need to be fix as well. It should not have such effectiveness toward planar mobs. But as an post-rift round, I personally think its' current effect is ok to normal mobs, since it have a matched cost. That's why I think the slowdown rounds has more problems than icker. (Icker rounds still need nerf for planar mob imo)

On 2/24/2025 at 12:16 AM, Walrusst said:

Admittedly the brightshade/brilliance combo does a good 50% more dps than the icker combos so like (210 versus like, the 140-180 that shadow walter can do,) if you want exciting gameplay you can completely forgo the icker if you want.
Sure it lacks an elemental aspected slingshot part, and it is expensive as hell.

But if the strongest form of walter isn't the slow booring way of playing walter its simple, bypass slowter entirely and go for deepster.

 

 

You don't need a handbook telling you what to do, you make the rules now.

 

Not to say I don't have my worries, the zero-spooling no wind up grips dominating walters progression saddens me, I would love to have a scale grip that tries to compete with the queen bee grip or something since the spooling walter has a much more interesting playstyle imo when paired with the frames. Since commitment and greed is more interesting than stop micro.

There's a problem is that the slowdown rounds is already enough to disable most enemies and give you a shadow prison II ability. Which means icker rounds is almost meaningless for post-rift build once you have a gem-farm or a gem tree farm for supporting your slowdown rounds.

[Lardee]

The reason why the brightshade staff and even the gloomerang aren't as bad is that the player has stronger damage options. Brightshade Swords deal much more damage against single target enemies and have much more uses than the staff.  Same with the Shadow Reaper vs the gloomerang.

This means players actually have an incentive not to take the safe and unengaging ranged combat option.

 

Walter simply needs incentives to forgo ranged combat and put himself in danger by engaging with enemies. This doesn't mean nerfing ranged combat, it means giving him tools like debuff/utility rounds and burst damage/close range slingshot upgrades that result in even higher DPS and less resource cost vs ranged combat.

[Walrusst]

I mostly want more windup grips to be part of the progression because windup grips are sort of walters form of the elevated risk.

The highest reward for a windup grip like silk or void cloth is taking shots even if it means letting the enemy get close enough that you are likely to get hit, calling off engagements is huge drops in rewards where you need to do a manual charged attack and overcommit again to preserve your dps.

Having 99% of your run be done with a grip that encourages you to forgo your most interesting limitation (Royal jelly) is what bothers me the most with walter, since with his no wind up grips the core criticisms of range are exaggerated extremely. I've suggested a scale grip that competes with royal jelly for the mid game as a windup alternative to jelly and slurtle slime ammo as an elemental vulnerability round over time but, its likely too late for these.

Still, its not like walters highest DPS isn't going to be with using stuff like burst/elemental damage, since well. He has some curious tricks that let him farm positively insane amounts of burst damage if you are willing to invest in some tools to set it off. (Its just also sort of cheesy elemental damage.)

The funny thing was, when I hadn't used the non-windup grips much I had shrugged off most the criticisms of walter for a while because I found the windups interesting as a way to encourage ranged to stay risky. When I realized it was nearly always optimal until the end of the game to never use a windup grip, I got concerned. (+ Slow stacking exists as a secondary issue.)

[Nini voovoo]

32 minutes ago, Lardee said:

The reason why the brightshade staff and even the gloomerang aren't as bad is that the player has stronger damage options. Brightshade Swords deal much more damage against single target enemies and have much more uses than the staff.  Same with the Shadow Reaper vs the gloomerang.

This means players actually have an incentive not to take the safe and unengaging ranged combat option.

 

Walter simply needs incentives to forgo ranged combat and put himself in danger by engaging with enemies. This doesn't mean nerfing ranged combat, it means giving him tools like debuff/utility rounds and burst damage/close range slingshot upgrades that result in even higher DPS and less resource cost vs ranged combat.

I agree with this, i think having a ranged option that is decently lower dps but a lot safer and thats AFTER RIFTS, i dont think they are problematic, Ichor rounds take it too far tho i dont really think the enemy design here is at fault as was suggested before and more of Ichor just being TOO suppressive.

[4Rory]

So don't use it. Or don't play him if you insist on playing optimally.I think there is a broad consensus that Icker Rounds are overtuned, but when you are looking at post rifts, you already have plenty of powerful options and it just leans into letting you do more of what Walter does already- kiting. It doesn't really make bosses easier, just less cumbersome.

[viblym]

Hey no offense, but you don't have to use them.