Wortox identity crisis

[Hollow soul 3]

When wortox was introduced, he was the only character with teleporting. Now we have 5 other options to choose from, with much more diverse kits. Can we please give wortox something a little more unique to set him apart again?

If you take out the filler, there's plenty of room to add in something unique and interesting. He really needs something to make him stand out. Especially considering you have to go out of your way to unlock him.

I don't have any specific suggestions. I'm honestly pretty exhausted from trying to highlight issues by suggesting changes. It feels pretty pointless when the devs don't see the problem. 

Maybe if we're giving everyone Wortox's kit, let him use others character specific items at a cost

[asdsaax]

18 hours ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

Maybe if we're giving everyone Wortox's kit, let him use others character specific items at a cost

Getting to use brambleshade armor on Wortox is kinda my dream, but it's unrealistic

Even if their synergy is iconic to the point imp could get special armor privilege

On side note
I think getting to use brambleshade armor would complement Wortox so nicely
and solve the issue of current Lunar Swindler's experience being replicable by base items
and lacking minor utility gimmick like Shadow Harvester

I don't think it would hurt Wormwood in the same way Maxwell hurts Wicker
because WW has so many nuances and he approaches his own kit differently

meanwhile Wortox would appreciate a tool that allows him to tank and trigger his abilities
especially coming from a character that he complements with infinite healing
and Wormwood would complement Wortox by making his souls more reliable because there's
a way to trigger them

Both characters are about giving and it would be cool if both of them could benefit out of it to the fullest

[Hollow soul 3]

5 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

Getting to use brambleshade armor on Wortox is kinda my dream, but it's unrealistic

Even if their synergy is iconic to the point imp could get special armor privilege

Right? It's ridiculous to even ask for. So if it's so crazy, WHY ARE WE GIVING EVERYONE WORTOX'S KIT?

[aidankocherhans]

Wortox has by far the most flexible teleporting ability for little investment, as well as incredible healing. His tree also gives him lots of new mechanics 

[Soul7k]

13 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Wortox has by far the most flexible teleporting ability for little investment, as well as incredible healing. His tree also gives him lots of new mechanics 

yes and no. if you ignore the soul decoy 2 that literally does nothing and then covetous collector that dips into 12 skill points

[Crimson Hollow]

19 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Wortox has by far the most flexible teleporting ability for little investment, as well as incredible healing. His tree also gives him lots of new mechanics 

I agree that he has the easiest and most flexible teleporting ability as well as great healing. But his new abilities are like gifts with 1000 layers of wrappings... you cant just get to what you need without sinking in several points into literal filler skills, and honestly i feel a lack of character growth progressing through his skill tree. 

[Hollow soul 3]

23 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Wortox has by far the most flexible teleporting ability for little investment, as well as incredible healing. His tree also gives him lots of new mechanics 

Not really. Teleporting others is a recycled mechanic. Improved healing is a upgrade but nothing new. Teleporting cheaper is a upgrade, not something new. His lunar affinity is extending the durability of two armor sets, this doesn't do anything interesting and new. His neutral expands the life of a panflute, and gets him souls, nothing new. His shadow affinity gives him aeo with one attack, new for him but I've played with woodie mains before. His jar tree gives him the jars (nice, but it's the food storage thing with less diversity, and it leaks), and wandas weapon with lower range and damage with more conditions. It picks up stuff faster, but not as passively as wobbly merms, or the bird. His soul echo is actually decent, I like that one. And his decoy is flawed, but still new. 

So he does 2 new things. If you want to make those 2 new things useful, that's half your insight points.

35 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Wortox has by far the most flexible teleporting ability for little investment

Yeah, he definitely does, but everyone else gets their teleport piled onto a character with a diverse set of skills. Wortox is lacking in that department.

[Echsrick]

i feel like something special done with pomegranates could be funny....something that is not a bomb like shipwrecks coconut bombs, given that its kind of the "hell fruit" and wortox being a demon and all that and its his "favourit" food kind of, like i think that be interesting

[OMEGASCRUFF]

21 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

i feel like something special done with pomegranates could be funny....something that is not a bomb like shipwrecks coconut bombs, given that its kind of the "hell fruit" and wortox being a demon and all that and its his "favourit" food kind of, like i think that be interesting

Oh my god can we please get a base-kit change where our hunger penalty doesn't affect Pomegranates please??? This drives me insane that it works that way. It's not even a real buff, but it's just a "wtf why" moment.

[Hollow soul 3]

12 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Oh my god can we please get a base-kit change where our hunger penalty doesn't affect Pomegranates please??? This drives me insane that it works that way. It's not even a real buff, but it's just a "wtf why" moment.

Yeah, that always felt like a bad design to me

[OMEGASCRUFF]

[Hollow soul 3]

Waiting for pomegranates would be pretty annoying to base a skill off it, and the favorite food mechanic isn't hugely impactful. Feels/is pointless with his downside.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

4 minutes ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

Waiting for pomegranates would be pretty annoying to base a skill off it, and the favorite food mechanic isn't hugely impactful. Feels/is pointless with his downside.

It would be nice if that fruit had a purpose.

...I tell myself the same thing in the mirror every morning.

[gaymime]

22 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

It would be nice if that fruit had a purpose.

...I tell myself the same thing in the mirror every morning.

ok, that was good X''D you got me to drop my sandwich i laughed so hard

[Tranoze]

Make him summon a soul that can attack everything for you, AOE attack that tick every second.
Also bond that soul to a flower.

[Echsrick]

47 minutes ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

Waiting for pomegranates would be pretty annoying to base a skill off it, and the favorite food mechanic isn't hugely impactful. Feels/is pointless with his downside.

hell gate to pomegranate garden? eh.......i dont know i guess something extra way to get them for wortox....

[salty_cookie]

4 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

Make him summon a soul that can attack everything for you, AOE attack that tick every second.
Also bond that soul to a flower.

Thats a great character concept. But I think klei should add it as its own character. Like imagine the soul is actually the characters relative. Maybe a twin even.

[Thieta]

5 hours ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

When wortox was introduced, he was the only character with teleporting.

Somebody is forgetting the OG teleporting character - Mr and Ms Wormhole.

[PunkShark]

I don't entirely understand how Wortox isn't unique by this point.
Sure, a couple other survivors can teleport but to make Wortox stand out he has the cheapest form of teleportation avaiable. The issue was that it became nullified because the others while had to use more time for theirs was also more efficient, but now Wortox has upped his game to be on par with the others.

Because one or 2 characters has ways of teleportation, it does not make them the same as Wortox. What makes them all different is the fact they all work very differently from one another to make each other stand out. In fact, everyone can teleport but nowhere near as good as these 3. And wortox is no exception. He can willy-nilly go to anywhere he wants, from short trips to island hops and no one has this amount of freedom with little cost other than to kill for souls. including being able to soul-echo for freely dodging your enemies, the only thing close to that is the Backtrek Watch but even that works differently and is not as freely used.

Wortox was already a good character in concept before his skill tree, but his main hinderance was the fact his skills didn't' come up to par later in the game or even mid-game due to the lack of soul capacity and him being far more simple than the rest of the cast. You lost of things to do quickly and his powers were really only useful and more impactful for a multiplayer setting.
The skill tree addresses all of these previous concerns and fixes him to actually be useful throughout the whole game including solo playthroughs. He stands out because of the amount of freedom his playstyle gives you. And is also built within the most unique working skill tree by far due to his inclination implementation. If that isn't unique then idk what is.
There is a couple of filler skills, sure, but i don't think it is all of them. And Wortox's main gimmick is souls which the tree expands in more ways than one. Some of those are gonna bit a bit flat. But even then, soul decoy, knabsack, soul jars, all of the lifted spirit branch, the 2 inclinations, life bringer, all the flute perks and alignments are very much making all of that, at least in my opinion, worth it.

On a side-note, we're also really stretching out this beta and we can't keep tweaking and adding things forever. Wortox is in a very good spot despite the flaws in his skill tree but i think what he got is more than enough to keep him interesting.
on another note. We're still getting some tweaks to the knabsack like it working as a bugnet and it soon getting some new visuals.
 

[OMEGASCRUFF]

2 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

On a side-note, we're also really stretching out this beta and we can't keep tweaking and adding things forever. Wortox is in a very good spot despite the flaws in his skill tree but i think what he got is more than enough to keep him interesting.

I mean... Perhaps he should have gotten at least any attention at all this entire time, then. It's been 2.5 months and nothing major has changed despite repeated issues being brought up. That's definitely not the play testers' doing.

I haven't directly participated in any beta besides this one, but has there been any other instance of so little attention being given to anyone else's skill tree or rework? The dev didn't even decide to say anything about his skill tree until this past week, which is insane. We've been just completely left in the dark this whole time. And only to be told it was all for nothing so late into the beta? Disappointing is an understatement.

Only thing better than unpaid labor is wasted unpaid labor, am I right?

[ApoIIo]

14 hours ago, aidankocherhans said:

Wortox has by far the most flexible teleporting ability for little investment, as well as incredible healing. His tree also gives him lots of new mechanics 

Let me rephrase that: He can heal and teleport.

Healing, being one of the most banal perks possible in the game, is only useful if you are struggling or if you are playing with people who are struggling, and effectively dud otherwise. The other comparable perk, Wigfrid's life drain, also drains sanity, negating *inevitable* sanity loss that can cause problems if you go insane midway through a boss fight, and does so at a significantly better rate than Wortox, even when you factor in the thereotical Wortox being nice for double. Why, it even lets you reach very swell dps for essentially free as a bonus if you use the enlightened crown! Wortox can only somewhat emulate that if you are strictly nice but obviously not to the same extent.
His teleports may not require set-up but any set-up requiring teleporter is arguably better once they are set up. Wanda can teleport cross-shard, does not need to refill a specific resource and only needs to swap her terminal watch out for a fresh one to bypass her cooldowns. Winona teleports either cost extremely little(if using nf) or nothing at all(if using enlightened shard), can teleport an infinite number of items, and are held back only by how strict the pad placements need to be, though the equilateral distance between each telipad is already up to the player so you can be more precise if you simply want to be at the cost of clicking more.

So yeah. Wortox pre-skill tree doesn't have that much to brag about really. The other two teleporters aren't exactly perkless until they have set up their teleports: Wanda is a ranged Wolfgang who makes kiting trivial while dealing big damage and shrugging off most blows for free thanks to her unique healing, and Winona has a portable nuclear arsenal.

On the note of his skill tree, there really aren't many "new mechanics", mostly just relieved restrictions on older ones. He can res, which is not unique, and he can teleport others, which is only partially unique, because he could already do that by teleporting himself and then using a lazy deserter, so what this does is mostly skip the wait until summer but is not a new thing regardless. He heals more with bastion, which is arguably the LEAST unique thing in the skill tree as all it does is increase healing. There's pierce and decoy, but both of them boil down to "aoe damage" or "more damage", pierce is almost exclusively useful for farming souls faster while decoy is *mostly* useful for that purpose, providing a small dps gain if you choose to soulkite but far from a significant amount, and the skill that buffs it does it by a very small and skippable amount (1.25x multiplier to pierce and decoy AT 100 SOULS, less at fewer souls held). Shadow reaper is a very thematically fitting alignment, the moment I saw a reaper I already made the soul-reaping connection, but it also serves the same purpose as pierce and decoy first and foremost while providing the most usable single-target damage buff out of the three (pierce does nothing most of the time let's be real). That said almost the entire naughty side boils down to "more damage and some aoe" save for the jar(yes I know reaper is not naughty don't @ me) . Don't get me wrong, jar's extremely nice, but it's also just what I mentioned earlier: It makes Wortox less restricted by the soul cap in return for restricting his inventory space. The soul cap increase per jar is the exact same thing. No new mechanic, just less restriction.

tldr: wortox deserves a fair bit of love to be relevant, the skill tree removed his worst restrictions but he still doesn't have anything that unique, his damage perks don't give him insane damage comparable to either of the other teleporters so it mostly just made him a better teleporter when viewing him comparatively.

[asdsaax]

14 hours ago, aidankocherhans said:

Wortox has by far the most flexible teleporting ability for little investment, as well as incredible healing. His tree also gives him lots of new mechanics

I think I recognize that description minus needing skilltree for that and 140 dmg weapon

 

[ApoIIo]

1 minute ago, asdsaax said:

I think I recognize that description minus needing skilltree for that and 140 dmg weapon

 

SO TRUEEEEEEE

7 hours ago, PunkShark said:

including being able to soul-echo for freely dodging your enemies, the only thing close to that is the Backtrek Watch but even that works differently and is not as freely used.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/free 

[WilsonHiggs]

3 hours ago, ApoIIo said:

Let me rephrase that: He can heal and teleport.

Healing, being one of the most banal perks possible in the game, is only useful if you are struggling or if you are playing with people who are struggling, and effectively dud otherwise. The other comparable perk, Wigfrid's life drain, also drains sanity, negating *inevitable* sanity loss that can cause problems if you go insane midway through a boss fight, and does so at a significantly better rate than Wortox, even when you factor in the thereotical Wortox being nice for double. Why, it even lets you reach very swell dps for essentially free as a bonus if you use the enlightened crown! Wortox can only somewhat emulate that if you are strictly nice but obviously not to the same extent.
His teleports may not require set-up but any set-up requiring teleporter is arguably better once they are set up. Wanda can teleport cross-shard, does not need to refill a specific resource and only needs to swap her terminal watch out for a fresh one to bypass her cooldowns. Winona teleports either cost extremely little(if using nf) or nothing at all(if using enlightened shard), can teleport an infinite number of items, and are held back only by how strict the pad placements need to be, though the equilateral distance between each telipad is already up to the player so you can be more precise if you simply want to be at the cost of clicking more.

So yeah. Wortox pre-skill tree doesn't have that much to brag about really. The other two teleporters aren't exactly perkless until they have set up their teleports: Wanda is a ranged Wolfgang who makes kiting trivial while dealing big damage and shrugging off most blows for free thanks to her unique healing, and Winona has a portable nuclear arsenal.

On the note of his skill tree, there really aren't many "new mechanics", mostly just relieved restrictions on older ones. He can res, which is not unique, and he can teleport others, which is only partially unique, because he could already do that by teleporting himself and then using a lazy deserter, so what this does is mostly skip the wait until summer but is not a new thing regardless. He heals more with bastion, which is arguably the LEAST unique thing in the skill tree as all it does is increase healing. There's pierce and decoy, but both of them boil down to "aoe damage" or "more damage", pierce is almost exclusively useful for farming souls faster while decoy is *mostly* useful for that purpose, providing a small dps gain if you choose to soulkite but far from a significant amount, and the skill that buffs it does it by a very small and skippable amount (1.25x multiplier to pierce and decoy AT 100 SOULS, less at fewer souls held). Shadow reaper is a very thematically fitting alignment, the moment I saw a reaper I already made the soul-reaping connection, but it also serves the same purpose as pierce and decoy first and foremost while providing the most usable single-target damage buff out of the three (pierce does nothing most of the time let's be real). That said almost the entire naughty side boils down to "more damage and some aoe" save for the jar(yes I know reaper is not naughty don't @ me) . Don't get me wrong, jar's extremely nice, but it's also just what I mentioned earlier: It makes Wortox less restricted by the soul cap in return for restricting his inventory space. The soul cap increase per jar is the exact same thing. No new mechanic, just less restriction.

tldr: wortox deserves a fair bit of love to be relevant, the skill tree removed his worst restrictions but he still doesn't have anything that unique, his damage perks don't give him insane damage comparable to either of the other teleporters so it mostly just made him a better teleporter when viewing him comparatively.

 

3 hours ago, asdsaax said:

I think I recognize that description minus needing skilltree for that and 140 dmg weapon

 

How many years are needed in terms of tusks to reach wortox's flexibility?

Dont get me wrong, i think wortox skill tree is almost as bad as woodie's or Wolfgang’s and needs new fun perks

[asdsaax]

3 hours ago, WilsonHiggs said:

How many years are needed in terms of tusks to reach wortox's flexibility?

20 days and entire winter to mark major points of interest
like your base, ruins/atrium or lunar island which is safe to assume
which is really good and Wanda's early game ain't lacking either

and only because Wortox has it more convenient right away that doesn't mean that OP's point is wrong
other characters take from Wortox's premise and they aren't necessarily worse at it

meanwhile Wortox eats breadcrumbs with filler skills, faulty affinities, the "I wanted 68 dmg knabsack but I ran into glasscutters anyway" skill, revive that a lot of characters have
and at least 6 skills on nice branch that have basically the same functionality (preventing death) despite of Wortox being good at it

I think it's understandable to be a little frustrated when we wait with the least news and communication from Devs