Please delay and rework Wendy's skilltree

[Cassielu]

9 hours ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Seems like having every skill point being useful and some of them giving +5 perks isnt enough... not until klei buff her even more

Dst will get a new tag: iddle

My friend, It seems that you are trapped in a lamentable cycle of thought, you need to realize that "better" and "buff to stronger" are two different concepts.

The fact that wraith's wreath has such much perk on one skill is exactly why its a bad skill, finding a suitable solution to separate them and then making them available independently is the fix it needs.

Also, before you worry about iddle by buff up a underpower characters, some real OP characters have already did that long time ago.

[ThereStars]

25 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

I do think it's hilarious that people act like Klei didn't listen to the 10 million threads giving feedback on Wendy. Like... Where do you all thing the 100 patches on Wendy came from and why there were even threads specifically explaining the reasoning behind certain Wendy changes?

Anyways, Walter was the most hated character in the game so he obviously needed a Willow-tier skill tree. Wendy did not. That's why Wendy's skill tree isn't like Walter's.

Yes, I know they explains, but it feels... strange? like the introduction to butterfly resurrection is basically "Look, it works for these things, so it's good", and of course player certainly knows these obvious uses, just the skill is a housework not fun unique and useful, which is basically the reason why players hated the petal crafting few days ago.

The same goes for the buff thing, where the entire note seems to use the "Wendy is strong" as the default premise to convince the community to accept these changes, a premise that is clearly completely at odds with the community's long-standing consensus "Wendy's need buff." and there was no explanation for it.

It's as if a controlling person is trying to psychologically manipulate you with hints (its little too much, sorry I really don't have the right adjectives), make uncomfortable.

It must be a huge mistake, basically is Jason post anger bait themself every week, I mean, without these note, the whole community would probably be a little calmer.

 

Of course Wendy wasn't as bad as Walter, no one could have been worse. But she's obviously not a good character either, and needs a skill tree of at least Woodie level or Wurt level to maintain her position. And out of that, Wortox, who was already better than she was, got a better skill tree than she was. Wendy seems to be the only one with a problem.

[Koomin]

1 hour ago, ThereStars said:

Yes, I know they explains, but it feels... strange? like the introduction to butterfly resurrection is basically "Look, it works for these things, so it's good", and of course player certainly knows these obvious uses, just the skill is a housework not fun unique and useful, which is basically the reason why players hated the petal crafting few days ago.

The same goes for the buff thing, where the entire note seems to use the "Wendy is strong" as the default premise to convince the community to accept these changes, a premise that is clearly completely at odds with the community's long-standing consensus "Wendy's need buff." and there was no explanation for it.

It's as if a controlling person is trying to psychologically manipulate you with hints (its little too much, sorry I really don't have the right adjectives), make uncomfortable.

It must be a huge mistake, basically is Jason post anger bait themself every week, I mean, without these note, the whole community would probably be a little calmer.

 

Of course Wendy wasn't as bad as Walter, no one could have been worse. But she's obviously not a good character either, and needs a skill tree of at least Woodie level or Wurt level to maintain her position. And out of that, Wortox, who was already better than she was, got a better skill tree than she was. Wendy seems to be the only one with a problem.

The community consensus is definitely not that "Wendy is weak and needs buff".  Where did that thought possibly come from?  It's pretty clear based on discussions over the past months that there is the opposite of a consensus on that.

[YouKnowWho142]

Is it not unfair to just say that Wendy's perks are polarizing? her weaknesses are glaring while her strengths are overwhelming. Overall she's a very strong character just because her role is so uncontested, easy, and powerful, but the reason why no one comes to a consensus on whether she is a strong character or a weak character is because by technicality she is both. My hope is for the skill tree to close this gap.

[Dr. Safety]

1 hour ago, ThereStars said:

But she's obviously not a good character either, and needs a skill tree of at least Woodie level or Wurt level to maintain her position. And out of that, Wortox, who was already better than she was, got a better skill tree than she was. Wendy seems to be the only one with a problem.

She is a great character unless you just AFK and watch Abigail play the game. I can agree that she has a tough late game (like a lot of characters do), but to say that she needs at least a Woodie-level tree to be good is just wrong. 

[DVGMedia]

7 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

I think it would be wrong to "rework" current Wendy's skill tree, because it was "reworked" once to reflect the opinions of Wendy players.
I could support the idea of further improving the current skill tree insights or adding insights that you would like.

 

Thats kind of what im thinking. We can make what we have now work.
But the approach that klei chose for these skills to work Is not really the best approach.
Alot of things kind of conflict with just standard gameplay and theres ways to fix it.
As well as just the players that play the character The wendy skill tree really is not that friendly to newer players only things that are friendly are the potion and grave line.
But nothing that provides utlity to abby only the problems with the wreath.
If they change the approach of the skills on the tree then there won't be as many problems
 

[yinjiu019]

You made a mistake and got knocked away.
Beefalo died, and you died too.
Because beefalo was attacked, attracted hatred, and when his obedience was low, he couldn't be ridden or fed.
That's it.
Cheap multi-end aoe attacks were rampant in the from beyond era. Wendy was the biggest victim

[Cassielu]

7 hours ago, ThereStars said:

The same goes for the buff thing, where the entire note seems to use the "Wendy is strong" as the default premise to convince the community to accept these changes, a premise that is clearly completely at odds with the community's long-standing consensus "Wendy's need buff." and there was no explanation for it.

6 hours ago, Koomin said:

The community consensus is definitely not that "Wendy is weak and needs buff".  Where did that thought possibly come from?  It's pretty clear based on discussions over the past months that there is the opposite of a consensus on that.

6 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

????? must've missed the memo for this because this has never been the case, ngl this reeks of a desperate astroturfing attempt

(sighs) let me explain.

1. english community is more focused on short run games without goal. In this case, the other characters' abilities won't be used effectively, so Wendy, despite having no outstanding advantage in anything, still ranks high on the tierlist for her ability to easily kill the weakest enemies in the game.
2. english community is more enjoy find unique new cool stuff, rather than Kevin's "exploration and learning them is fun" concept for DS. So while most of Wendy's skilltree is severely lacking in interactivity and ways to benefit from exploration, it is still considered good.

So the english community thinks Wendy is strong enough and have interesting skilltree (They really think so, not in bad faith). Because of the language barrier, feedback from the english community is more likely to be heard by Klei than from other parts of the community. This happens when the unique preferences of english community and general expectations of the player community are too different.

Klei should reconsider and balance these opinions in the community, and the current Wendy's skill tree is clearly out of balance, the views of a particular playstyle are overused. They need some time to revisit the goals and improve the skilltree. So yes, please delay and rework, that's a better for everyone.

[Mr Giggio]

On 2/9/2025 at 9:22 AM, ThereStars said:

The Walter tree over there has doubled in size

Because it was REALLY small in the beggining, plus, because they had to put more atention in Wendy first due the amount of demanding. It didnt need much to realize Walter skill tree was not only rushed but incomplete. Much skills didnt even make it throught the first version of the beta.  Even tho Walter was a char that didnt had much going for him before the skill tree while Wendy was well stabilished.

after a while now Walter has really cool shtufft AND OF COURSE Wendy players want more after seeing that the kid aside got something good when u guys got a lotta goods from the get go, but welp. Not surprised.

 

Hotfix after hotfix, adding. And some want more.

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, Mr Giggio said:

plus, because they had to put more atention in Wendy first due the amount of demanding.

I was thought Walter's change already break this "more attention put in Wendy" theory.

So, devs' words seems still unbelievable for some of people by mysterious reason.

[Koomin]

59 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I was thought Walter's change already break this "more attention put in Wendy" theory.

So, devs' words seems still unbelievable for some of people by mysterious reason.

It's pretty obviously true that focusing on Wendy's skill tree for update number 8 thousand is taking time away from the rest of the game, which has way bigger problems than the tiny and not even agreed upon Wendy critiques.  
They are a company, and a small one at that, and assigning someone to keep updating one skill tree while people complain about it for months clearly means they have less time for other things.   Walter's update proved nothing at all like what you are saying (and he was even part of the "bigger problems" that deserved attention).  Saying that more work on the tree doesn't remove time from other stuff is clearly incorrect.
I would so much rather they assign the team to work on caves content, rift content, biome generation, help for unused items, or future skill trees, and would be pretty sad if I read another update about them devoting more bandwidth to one of the best and most comprehensive skill trees again and again.

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, Koomin said:

It's pretty obviously true that focusing on Wendy's skill tree for update number 8 thousand is taking time away from the rest of the game, which has way bigger problems than the tiny and not even agreed upon Wendy critiques.  
They are a company, and a small one at that, and assigning someone to keep updating one skill tree while people complain about it for months clearly means they have less time for other things.   Walter's update proved nothing at all like what you are saying (and he was even part of the "bigger problems" that deserved attention).  Saying that more work on the tree doesn't remove time from other stuff is clearly incorrect.
I would so much rather they assign the team to work on caves content, rift content, biome generation, help for unused items, or future skill trees, and would be pretty sad if I read another update about them devoting more bandwidth to one of the best and most comprehensive skill trees again and again.

I guess wr are talking about different thing.

Three characters working in parallel is what I reminded here for who forgot our dev's word.

Your argument is valid, but I guess it might be a bit off topic to current skill tree beta. Maybe we should continue your topic in general discussion?

I do agree with some of your points ngl. Even I was thought that the skill tree may be a wrong thing from the very beginning. But I don't think these was relative with what our devs clarified for these three characters before.

People continuously disbelieve "three characters working in parallel" words of our devs, this is quite surprising after the Walter's rework I have to say.

[MorePlease]

On 2/9/2025 at 4:22 AM, ThereStars said:

Countless great ideas have been proposed in the last three months, but all have been ignored unless it's a pure nerf or art problem that has nothing to do with design. Until now, this skill tree is still half mind-bogglingly repetitive work requirements and half is poorly motivated rewards, without any new gameplay.

What has Wendy's group been doing for the past three months? The Walter tree over there has doubled in size, and if it weren't for Wendy's terrible weekly update, I'd almost think she'd be the one sent back for a big rework.

Walter was a huge success just by adopting suggestions, with a 100% satisfaction rate—even better than people expected. But when it comes to Wendy, it feels like the developers are deliberately going against the community. Why? In terms of power level, the only characters worse than Wendy are Wilson, Wes, Wigfrid, and WX—either widely considered weak or still lacking skill trees. Almost the entire community agrees that Wendy needs a skill tree like Winona's or Willow's to keep up with the years of power creep. Yet, Jason mentioned in his note that she's "too strong," which has almost become a meme. And when it comes to fun factor, it's undeniably a mess—just bland item swaps and more repetitive chores. The entire skill tree outside of TS might not be as good as the beefalo QOL Walter brought.

Sorry to say so much, I'm just very, very, very confused, this isn't how Klei has been doing things over the years.

Anyway, my suggestion is: If there isn't some behind-the-scenes work already happening, just delay Wendy's skill tree and rework it, only release Wortox and Walter skilltrees (after finish them). I believe the community would understand delaying it to fix it rather than releasing a poorly designed skill tree—at least I would.

 

BTW I know undo code merges are hard, but you can hide them by just adding few simple line to Wendy's skilltree, which has been done many times in the history of this game.

 

I think its a great skill tree when shes maxed out she hits for around 400 she has a new way to revieve people with her graves her aoe version does great damage she can produce dark flowers and luner butterflies she can haunt anything, including mushrooms, to change them to any you prefer the only thing I would say she needs change is when you put luner flowers in the sisturn shouldn't reduce damage.

[Mysterious box]

11 hours ago, ThereStars said:

Yes, I know they explains, but it feels... strange? like the introduction to butterfly resurrection is basically "Look, it works for these things, so it's good", and of course player certainly knows these obvious uses, just the skill is a housework not fun unique and useful, which is basically the reason why players hated the petal crafting few days ago.

I'd like to remind you one of Walter's skills is literally just a easier way to feed Woby and it relies on either making drying racks or using the drying rack skill to setup. Though technically Walter and Wendy aren't alone in that aspect as while people didn't really think about it much there are multiple characters with chore skills it just comes down to how people feel about them.

[DVGMedia]

24 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I'd like to remind you one of Walter's skills is literally just a easier way to feed Woby and it relies on either making drying racks or using the drying rack skill to setup. Though technically Walter and Wendy aren't alone in that aspect as while people didn't really think about it much there are multiple characters with chore skills it just comes down to how people feel about them.

I wouldn't really compare that one to the butterfly resurrection. that would be more tied to the pipspook line.
The butterfly is soely there to make sisturn or shadow abby available.

[AliceShiki]

13 hours ago, ThereStars said:

the community's long-standing consensus "Wendy's need buff." 

This consensus never existed.

If there is any consensus I can think of that existed for Wendy, was that she was one of the best characters for new players because she was very simple to play with, had very few gimmicks, and could trivialize most mob combat due to Abigail, which made it easier for new players to focus on the other aspects of survival.

She being strong or weak wasn't something people debated much, and I think opinions were divisive on that.

13 hours ago, ThereStars said:

It must be a huge mistake, basically is Jason post anger bait themself every week, I mean, without these note, the whole community would probably be a little calmer.

No, quite the opposite. I read those threads. People were praising the in-depth explanation for changes and were asking the devs to make this kind of thread for all skill trees updates moving forward, because they really liked getting extra insight on the devs' thought process.

Also, the majority of the community has been calm from the start. There was a small loud minority that complained a lot though.

[DaDa_waw]

To be honest, this meme is just too fitting. I can't find a reason not to burst into laughter.