The change of Cursed Vex seems as a pure nerfing but not adjustment.

[Arcwell]

I'm not genuinely entertaining the idea of weather pain as a viable form of damage given its cost and I'm hoping no one else does.

Here's some damage tables. "max buff Abby" here means Abby with murder buff, cursed vexation, and nightshade nostrum. Tentacle dmg is multiplied by 0.2 to account for its odds of spawning.

1st is the example talked about above, club + crown + abby:

2nd is a very basic example being just Abby and hambat. (EDIT: forgot +10 in post update hambat dmg, fixed now)

If you see any errors, please point them out.

tl;dr:
moderate nerf against normal enemies
miniscule to slight buff against planar enemies
still quite strong compared to other character options

Personally I'm fine with it, but I'm also not invested in it at all.

[WenericMember]

6 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

I'm not genuinely entertaining the idea of weather pain as a viable form of damage given its cost and I'm hoping no one else does.

Here's some damage tables. "max buff Abby" here means Abby with murder buff, cursed vexation, and nightshade nostrum. Tentacle dmg is multiplied by 0.2 to account for its odds of spawning.

1st is the example talked about above, club + crown + abby:

2nd is a very basic example being just Abby and hambat.

If you see any errors, please point them out.

tl;dr:
moderate to severe nerf against normal enemies
miniscule to slight buff against planar enemies
still quite strong compared to other character options

Personally I'm fine with it, but I'm also not invested in it at all.

I think the only concern is comparing damage numbers to lunar, but that needs more exact numbers.

New cursed vex is much stronger than lunar in a mp environment, so that's cool

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

If they lowered Gestalt Abby's DPS to make it comparable to the Vex potion's DPS, that would probably make the incentive to go the Shadow route competitive again.

As of now, there's no reason not to just pick Lunar and plan your activities around the Lunar cycle. 

In a solo environment maybe, but Lunar Pot is a flat DPS increase, whereas Cursed vexation scales with the number of people fighting.

[Arcwell]

47 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I think the only concern is comparing damage numbers to lunar, but that needs more exact numbers.

Much harder to calculate because lunar Abby's attack speed is not consistent. In testing I got an attack interval of anywhere from 3.33 seconds to 5.4 seconds.
The "Attack At" command is also currently bugged with Gestalt Abby but can theoretically improve her attack speed when it's fixed.

Command used to measure attack interval:

Spoiler

local abby = c_find("abigail") _StartAttack = abby.components.combat.StartAttack abby.components.combat.StartAttack = function(self, ...) TheNet:Announce(GetTime() - (self.laststartattacktime or 0)) _StartAttack(self, ...) end

I would estimate max buffed gestalt Abby's DPS at ~82.677 assuming an attack interval of 4.233 seconds (which was the most common result vs. a target dummy), but again, this can vary. In theory it can be more like ~64.815 - 105 DPS. Shadow Abby's DPS by comparison is 65 plus 21.429 per instance of damage it's buffing (i.e. 86.429 including player, 107.858 if player has E. crown, 112.1438 if using E. crown and T. club) assuming its attacking at base player speed. Gestalt will likely pull ahead in DPS once "Attack at" gets fixed, but you're of course sacrificing AoE for that.

[WenericMember]

Just now, Arcwell said:

Much harder to calculate because lunar Abby's attack speed is not consistent. In testing I got an attack interval of anywhere from 3.33 seconds to 5.4 seconds.
The "Attack At" command is also currently bugged with Gestalt Abby but can theoretically improve her attack speed when it's fixed.

Command used to measure attack interval:

  Hide contents

local abby = c_find("abigail") _StartAttack = abby.components.combat.StartAttack abby.components.combat.StartAttack = function(self, ...) TheNet:Announce(GetTime() - (self.laststartattacktime or 0)) _StartAttack(self, ...) end

I would estimate max buffed gestalt Abby's DPS at ~82.677 assuming an attack interval of 4.233 seconds (which was the most common result vs. a target dummy), but again, this can vary. In theory it can be more like ~64.815 - 105 DPS. Shadow Abby's DPS by comparison is 65, each instance of damage its buffing is +21.429 DPS assuming its attacking at base player speed (tentacle is 0.2 times this because of its odds). Gestalt will likely pull ahead in DPS once "Attack at" gets fixed, but you're of course sacrificing AoE for that.

That's rough, considering they stated earlier that they wanted Lunar Abby damage to be slightly ahead of Vanilla, but eclipsed by Shadow Abigail.

"We wanted to define the choice of Abigails more, so Gestalt Abigail's choice is about being more aloof and personally survivable, lower maintenance, at the cost of damage speed (DPS)."

Not the exact post I was looking for, but that was the sentiment. I'm curious to see if we'll get further changes.

 

[Arcwell]

18 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

That's rough, considering they stated earlier that they wanted Lunar Abby damage to be slightly ahead of Vanilla, but eclipsed by Shadow Abigail.

"We wanted to define the choice of Abigails more, so Gestalt Abigail's choice is about being more aloof and personally survivable, lower maintenance, at the cost of damage speed (DPS)."

Not the exact post I was looking for, but that was the sentiment. I'm curious to see if we'll get further changes.

 

I might not have worded the DPS for shadow Abigail clearly enough, I've edited my last post to clarify some things. Currently shadow Abby does deal more DPS and can more consistently hit its highest potential DPS since it's based on the weapon's you're using instead of when Abby decides to attack. This might change when Attack At gets fixed, but I have no clue by how much. I suspect they would still be very comparable.

[Debruh]

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

The planar added for the vex just kind of feels strange to me

Like now instead of using bees to buff abby with shadow it may honestly just be better to drop the bees so that each of them are doing double damage

Since the vex provides more or of a bonus the lower the attack is. I guess it helps out with planar weapons because now its not boosting the weak physical damage of those weapons.

But it just feels wrong.

Weird to me that they didn't go the route of making it add a new percentage, something small maybe, whose resulting damage is planar.

[WenericMember]

6 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Weird to me that they didn't go the route of making it add a new percentage, something small maybe, whose resulting damage is planar.

I'm fine with it. Wigfrid already has % based planar damage, so giving flat Planar damage makes them a bit more unique.

[Debruh]

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

Like now instead of using bees to buff abby with shadow it may honestly just be better to drop the bees so that each of them are doing double damage

That's really situational. Especially since this is probably gonna be mostly used on bosses

1 minute ago, WenericMember said:

I'm fine with it. Wigfrid already has % based planar damage, so giving flat Planar damage makes them a bit more unique.

Flat planar damage has already been down via void cowl, Walter's pure brilliance rounds, Wolfgang's skill line.

It just seems strange to me that the vex doesn't follow suit, since that was suggested pretty commonly. And vex is originally an % thing

[WenericMember]

4 minutes ago, Debruh said:

That's really situational. Especially since this is probably gonna be mostly used on bosses

Flat planar damage has already been down via void cowl, Walter's pure brilliance rounds, Wolfgang's skill line.

It just seems strange to me that the vex doesn't follow suit, since that was suggested pretty commonly. And vex is originally an % thing

Yes, but that only targets self. This is support flat planar. - This is a multiplayer game so they're not really equivalent.

[Debruh]

Just now, WenericMember said:

Yes, but that only targets self. This is support flat planar. - This is a multiplayer game so they're not really equivalent.

Walter's is also for everybody. Either way, one is like Wigfrid's and the other is like Walter's. It's not a bad thing btw, just thought that it was strange

16 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Wigfrid

Also to clarify, I meant a universal %, that turns all damage through it into planar damage. Not something like  Wigfrid that makes planar damage stay planar, and normal stay normal

[renamoe]

5 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Thank you. (I then added a Crab King video!)

Since the number of attacks had been not so emphasized in this game, I personally don't dislike this change, rather I think it's interesting and there seems to become stronger in the future. And there is also the possibility of potential exploits.

For now, the only opponents Shabby can deal very high DPS to are those that aren't so much move, so I think balanced. What I really liked is, in contrast Gestabby is strong against enemy move around, and she takes a moderate amount of time to switch, so I think that has really broadened Wendy's range of play.

Thanks for the test videos! Do you know if the Weather Pain damage is an intended mechanic or just a bug? The DPS seems surprisingly high—though, in my opinion, the materials for crafting Weather Pain are quite hard to obtain, so that might balance it out.

[Crestwave]

7 hours ago, Arcwell said:

The "Attack At" command is also currently bugged with Gestalt Abby but can theoretically improve her attack speed when it's fixed.

This is intended for Gestalt form, not a bug.

 

[SilverSpoon]

8 minutes ago, Crestwave said:

This is intended for Gestalt form, not a bug.

Not only that, but currently "Attack At" doesn't have any attack hitbox at all, even for normal Abigail.

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, renamoe said:

Thanks for the test videos! Do you know if the Weather Pain damage is an intended mechanic or just a bug? The DPS seems surprisingly high—though, in my opinion, the materials for crafting Weather Pain are quite hard to obtain, so that might balance it out.

I agree even if it wasn't intended the damage seems fine so I imagine the devs will keep it regardless.

[SilverSpoon]

9 hours ago, Arcwell said:

I'm not genuinely entertaining the idea of weather pain as a viable form of damage given its cost and I'm hoping no one else does.

Oh come on! This is a synergy that I make the most of my few dumb brain to discover, so even if it's just a compliment to me, please say like "IT'S SOOOOO OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Any way considering the current Weather Pain is a expensive stuff but the maximum DPS is only slightly higher than Wolfgang's, so as you say it has almost no practical use .

5 hours ago, renamoe said:

Thanks for the test videos! Do you know if the Weather Pain damage is an intended mechanic or just a bug? The DPS seems surprisingly high—though, in my opinion, the materials for crafting Weather Pain are quite hard to obtain, so that might balance it out.

The DPS is pretty high with Weather Pain, but it's within reasonable limits, so I think not a bug and is intended mechanic. even without Weather Pain, it deal kinda high DPS, even without that, it still deal (10x2xPlayer Num) extra planar bonus DPS, so I think it's not bad.

 

[Dingle]

2 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Oh come on! This is a synergy that I make the most of my few dumb brain to discover, so even if it's just a compliment to me, please say like "IT'S SOOOOO OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Any way considering the current Weather Pain is a expensive stuff but the maximum DPS is only slightly higher than Wolfgang's, so as you say it has almost no practical use .

WEATHER PANE: It's pretty OP. But in a very niche way. And a very creative way. So I like it.

I'd consider it really interesting for crab king, maybe celestial champion 3, probably more I'm forgetting.

Also tons of use for general multiplayer fun. Give a weather pain to a newer player, so they can contribute to a fight. With a couple players surrounding a boss (or one tanking), it would move less, making the strategy more widely viable.

[Arcwell]

2 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Oh come on! This is a synergy that I make the most of my few dumb brain to discover, so even if it's just a compliment to me, please say like "IT'S SOOOOO OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Any way considering the current Weather Pain is a expensive stuff but the maximum DPS is only slightly higher than Wolfgang's, so as you say it has almost no practical use .

I will give you that it looks fun 

Saying it's OP implies it should be nerfed/removed, which I don't think it should be in the slightest. It's like an alternative to gunpowder, which is perfectly fine.

[CremeLover]

2 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

The DPS is pretty high with Weather Pain, but it's within reasonable limits, so I think not a bug and is intended mechanic. even without Weather Pain, it deal kinda high DPS, even without that, it still deal (10x2xPlayer Num) extra planar bonus DPS, so I think it's not bad.

As another fun synergy, if you can get 2 enemies close enough that can be hit by abigail and witstand the damage, Brightshade Staff can also reach very high levels of DPS.

https://www.twitch.tv/jakeyosaurus/clip/CovertAntediluvianPidgeonWow-4zcb28Q65wpEPAwv

[OMEGASCRUFF]

12 hours ago, Arcwell said:

I'm not genuinely entertaining the idea of weather pain as a viable form of damage given its cost and I'm hoping no one else does.

Friendly reminder that Mimicreeps made Construction Amulet usage free. I'm pretty sure this is a viable option, though I totally understand your apprehension. I hate using more expensive things, if I can avoid it. But there's a few scenarios where this strategy is likely genuinely worth it (Crab King and phase 3 Celestial Champion come to mind, immediately, but Dingle already said that.)

[Dingle]

6 hours ago, CremeLover said:

As another fun synergy, if you can get 2 enemies close enough that can be hit by abigail and witstand the damage, Brightshade Staff can also reach very high levels of DPS.

https://www.twitch.tv/jakeyosaurus/clip/CovertAntediluvianPidgeonWow-4zcb28Q65wpEPAwv

Don't really need two enemies, I think. Off top of head, you should be able to build a punching bag near most bosses and go nuts.

I haven't tested this yet, so I could be wrong.

I wonder if putting wormwoods armor on the punching bag would up the damage a bunch.

[Steorra]

Spoiler

Old Cursed Vex to planar mob:

Brightshade Sword + Helm (to Shadow Mobs)

(√(38*1.2*1.3*1.6*4*0.75+64)-8)*4+30*1.1+5 = 80.68

Shadow Reaper + Cowl (maximum buff, to Lunar Mobs)

(√(38*1.2*1.3*1.6*4*0.75*1.1+64)-8)*4+(38*1.1+5)*1.1 = 97.15

Nightmare Saddle Ornery Beefalo:

(√(50*1.3*1.6*4+64)-8)*4+18 = 73.64

Enlightened Crown:

(√(42.5*1.3*4+64)-8)*4 = 35.53

 

 

New Cursed Vex to planar mob:

Brightshade Sword + Helm (to Shadow Mobs)

(√(38*1.2*1.1*1.4*4*0.75+64)-8)*4+30*1.1+5+10 = 79.71

Shadow Reaper + Cowl (maximum buff, to Lunar Mobs)

(√(38*1.2*1.1*1.4*4*0.75*1.1+64)-8)*4+(38*1.1+5)*1.1+10 = 98.27

Nightmare Saddle Ornery Beefalo:

(√(50*1.1*1.4*4+64)-8)*4+16+10 = 73.15

Enlightened Crown:

(√(42.5*1.1*4+64)-8)*4+10 = 41.37

 Please tell me if you found any fault in my math. I'm a bit tired these days and that messed my mind hardly.

(I have no idea if the damage applied by Cursed Vex would get benefit from Shadow Affinity of Wendy when toward Lunar mobs or not. I set it as no here.)

Spoiler

This was wrong since lack of 0.75 multiplier of Wendy herself and misadded the Vex multiplier to Wendy herself (40% in default and 60% in old Cursed Vex) for Enlightened Crown. Sorry. But it won't impact the argument here.

You could found that the latest change of Cursed Vex simply deleted its' bonus to normal mobs, but do almost no change to planar mobs. (it buffed Enlightened Crown a little bit more but do almost no changes to others. The E.C needs sanity consuming and would limit your gear build)

 

We all knew that what the community asked before is "Nerf the efficiency of Cursed Vex for pre-rift; Buff its' efficiency for post-rift"

But the newest change gave us "Delete the efficiency of Cursed Vex for pre-rift; No change for post-rift"

This is UNFAIR. (I don't want to talk about the weather pain thing. It's meaningless to most people since it's just an alternative gunpowder with lower efficiency but more expensive cost)

Could we retune it by following what the community asked for, but not keeping obsessed with NERFING to Wendy @Jason? The continuously nerfing to Wendy is being seems like an emotion-driven thing but not for fair balance tbh.

 

Personal ideas of future adjustment:

Spoiler

To change the Cursed Vex effect into "Vexed entity get extra 15% damage from both normal and planar damage".

Or, to change the current flat planar damage bonus of Cursed Vex to 17.5 (or 22.5 for Wendy, 12.5 for others)

update for Shadow Tentacles from Thulecite Club:

Cursed Vex for Shadow Tentacle to Planar Entity:

Before the update:

(√(34*1.3*4+64)-8)*4 = 30.07

After the update:

(√(34*1.1*4+64)-8)*4+10 = 36.46

 

6.39 damage per hit has been increased.

Just fixed this after I had aware that the tentacle won't affected by the extra Vex bonus to Wendy herself.

seems like 20% buff to Shadow Tentacle. But it perform worse than theory in real combat since the movement of target would cause great damage loss of Shadow Tentacle.

[Echsrick]

i am pretty sure there were people that wanted it to get nerfed, and so they listen to some people, cant make everyone happy after all

[Steorra]

2 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

i am pretty sure there were people that wanted it to get nerfed, and so they listen to some people, cant make everyone happy after all

Okay. I'll add a poll for a basic survey.

[Echsrick]

there allready is a poll

[WenericMember]

I think Shadow alignment needs a buff, it's been hit way too hard in the past few patches. The only part that was potentially egrigous was Beef Wendy, but that shouldn't be the basis for balancing a survivor that isn't designed around beefalo.

I'd keep the flat planar damage, as that gives Wendy unqiue interactions compared to the % based damage of regular weapons, but I'd either revert the standardization of Shadow Abigail's damage or Buff the planar bonus by 5-10 when Wendy's attacking, like her regular vex.

3 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

there allready is a poll

That's not about cursed vex tho.