Planar damage comparison

[RussoDaFederal]

Ok, second notification I get this week regarding that outdated graph I made, so I'll make a new post. I'll do something different this time and focus on planar damage. I'll also apply the Planar Entity Protection formula, which, according to the wiki, goes as follows:

Damage Taken = 8 * √(Physical Damage + 16) - 32 + Planar Damage

The problem with this formula is that there are two variables, one for physical and one for planar damage, and it's not possible to make a 2D cartesian graphic under those constraints. That said, I'll assume every character is using the shadow reaper at max damage (41.8 physical and 47 planar), and I'll make a bar graphic to compare them at the end. I'll also add a beefalo damage comparison for each row, I'll assume the beefalo to be ornery with the nightmare saddle. The formula becomes as follows:

DPS = 2 * (8 * √(dmg * mult + 16) - 32 + planar_dmg) + 8 * √(abi_dmg + 16) - 32 + abi_planar_dmg

One tiny exception is that Wolfgang has a planar damage multiplier when fighting creatures of opposite alignment when he has the shadow or lunar affinity lv3 skill. So we'll add a multiplier to that as well. So thanks to Google Sheets we have a very clear visualization:

Attacker	Damage	Planar damage	Damage mult.	Planar mult.	Beefalo mult.	Abi dmg	Abi planar dmg	Total	Total beefalo
Wolfgang	41,8	72	2	1	1			239,68	101,98
Wolfgang w/ affinity	41,8	72	2,6	1,3	1			301,86	101,98
Wilson	41,8	47	1	1	1			151,64	101,98
Wendy	41,8	47	0,75	1	1			140,10	101,98
Wendy & Abi	41,8	47	1,155	1	1,54	40	0	186,15	154,16
Wendy & Vex Abi	41,8	47	1,56	1	2,08	40	0	202,05	175,14
Wendy & Shadow Abi	41,8	47	1,155	1	1,54	40	25	211,15	179,16
Wendy & Vex Shadow Abi	41,8	47	1,56	1	2,08	40	25	227,05	200,14

 

In conclusion, Wolfgang is still the character with highest DPS in this scenario and possibly in the entire game, as he should be. I was surprised to see that "Beefalo Wendy" performs slightly worse than Wendy against mobs with planar defense. Unless of course I'm forgetting something important in my calculations. If so, please let me know. And I'm slightly disappointed that the DPS increase from the new vex elixir and from Shadow Abi isn't as high as I thought. Also, to anyone still trying to go for the "but Wes damage" argument, notice how close Wilson and Wendy (without Abigail) DPS are. That's just how post rift content works, most DPS will stay within that 150-200 threshold.

[Steorra]

It's appreciated for your efforts to end the wrong arguments!

10 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I was surprised to see that "Beefalo Wendy" performs slightly worse than Wendy against mobs with planar defense.

Though I was thought we already be clear with this after I posted the thread "Wendy (riding beefalo) = Wes (using scythe)".

And have to clarify that this conclusion is based on theory. Once we consider that manage abby would cause a DPS losses for Wendy, the theoric DPS of Wendy would only be lesser than the original conclusion.

[Cassielu]

Amazing work. Thank you.

But if I remember correctly, the player character attacks every 17 frames, so they should attack three times instead of two?

[RussoDaFederal]

2 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

Amazing work. Thank you.

But if I remember correctly, the player character attacks every 17 frames, so they should attack three times instead of two?

2 attacks per second was an approximation, but since all characters have the same attack speed this would only "lower" (in comparison) Abigail's damage. Otherwise the disparity would remain the same.

[Picklesaurus]

41 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Unless of course I'm forgetting something important in my calculations. If so, please let me know. 

Vex potion is REALLY good pre-rift and than it falls off a LOT after rifts are open because of the nature of planar entity/defense on enemies. What you are missing is a graphic showing its damage to pre-rift content so we can compare and see that it is at the same time too much damage for pre-rift content and than too little damage increase against planar enemies. I would prefer it not be extremes on both sides, so I would like if they reduced its damage to non planar enemies a bit and increased its damage against planar enemies. 

[Thieta]

5 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

Vex potion is REALLY good pre-rift and than it falls off a LOT after rifts are open because of the nature of planar entity/defense on enemies. What you are missing is a graphic showing its damage to pre-rift content so we can compare and see that it is at the same time too much damage for pre-rift content and than too little damage increase against planar enemies. I would prefer it not be extremes on both sides, so I would like if they reduced its damage to non planar enemies a bit and increased its damage against planar enemies. 

Someone is searching for validation - Pre-rift is gonna be no comparison and wolfgang will have a bigger gap and deal even more dmg than she can...Alongside nightmare fuel being harder to acquire so it's not even valid

 

Pure horror not nightmare mb

[RussoDaFederal]

13 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

What you are missing is a graphic showing its damage to pre-rift content

I already made another post with those numbers, but I forgot to add Wolfgang's +25 planar damage:

 

10 minutes ago, Thieta said:

Someone is searching for validation - Pre-rift is gonna be no comparison and wolfgang will have a bigger gap and deal even more dmg than she can...Alongside nightmare fuel being harder to acquire so it's not even valid

 

Pure horror not nightmare mb

Are you saying that their point is not valid just because pure horror is a bit harder to acquire? Don't forget that even if it's hard to get, once you do, it's a very low maintenance gear, you only need 1 pure horror and 1 dark tatters to return any shadow equipment to full durability. They're not looking for validation, they're making a reasonable point based on this data

[Cassielu]

41 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

2 attacks per second was an approximation, but since all characters have the same attack speed this would only "lower" (in comparison) Abigail's damage. Otherwise the disparity would remain the same.

I did get it wrong, it was closer to two than to three. My bad. Sorry.

BTW, I know of a mod can measures DPS in-game. This might help you if you're doing something similar.

[Picklesaurus]

15 minutes ago, Thieta said:

Someone is searching for validation - Pre-rift is gonna be no comparison and wolfgang will have a bigger gap and deal even more dmg than she can...Alongside nightmare fuel being harder to acquire so it's not even valid

 

Pure horror not nightmare mb

I don't understand, what do you think I'm searching validation for?

[Koomin]

3 hours ago, Picklesaurus said:

Vex potion is REALLY good pre-rift and than it falls off a LOT after rifts are open because of the nature of planar entity/defense on enemies. What you are missing is a graphic showing its damage to pre-rift content so we can compare and see that it is at the same time too much damage for pre-rift content and than too little damage increase against planar enemies. I would prefer it not be extremes on both sides, so I would like if they reduced its damage to non planar enemies a bit and increased its damage against planar enemies. 

Yes this seems like it's just further evidence of the point everyone has been making for a while about shadow vex being poorly designed. Damage is way too high against non-planar enemies (as seen in the non-planar comparison graphs and people keep bringing up) and then not worth it post-rift (as seen here).  

At this point with like 30 threads about it I feel like the devs have gotten the feedback, and will decide whether it's worth spending more time on fixing.

[CremeLover]

4 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Ok, second notification I get this week regarding that outdated graph I made, so I'll make a new post. I'll do something different this time and focus on planar damage. I'll also apply the Planar Entity Protection formula, which, according to the wiki, goes as follows:

Damage Taken = 8 * √(Physical Damage + 16) - 32 + Planar Damage

The problem with this formula is that there are two variables, one for physical and one for planar damage, and it's not possible to make a 2D cartesian graphic under those constraints. That said, I'll assume every character is using the shadow reaper at max damage (41.8 physical and 47 planar), and I'll make a bar graphic to compare them at the end. I'll also add a beefalo damage comparison for each row, I'll assume the beefalo to be ornery with the nightmare saddle. The formula becomes as follows:

DPS = 2 * (8 * √(dmg * mult + 16) - 32 + planar_dmg) + 8 * √(abi_dmg + 16) - 32 + abi_planar_dmg

One tiny exception is that Wolfgang has a planar damage multiplier when fighting creatures of opposite alignment when he has the shadow or lunar affinity lv3 skill. So we'll add a multiplier to that as well. So thanks to Google Sheets we have a very clear visualization:

 

Attacker	Damage	Planar damage	Damage mult.	Planar mult.	Beefalo mult.	Abi dmg	Abi planar dmg	Total	Total beefalo
Wolfgang	41,8	72	2	1	1			239,68	101,98
Wolfgang w/ affinity	41,8	72	2,6	1,3	1			301,86	101,98
Wilson	41,8	47	1	1	1			151,64	101,98
Wendy	41,8	47	0,75	1	1			140,10	101,98
Wendy & Abi	41,8	47	1,155	1	1,54	40	0	186,15	154,16
Wendy & Vex Abi	41,8	47	1,56	1	2,08	40	0	202,05	175,14
Wendy & Shadow Abi	41,8	47	1,155	1	1,54	40	25	211,15	179,16
Wendy & Vex Shadow Abi	41,8	47	1,56	1	2,08	40	25	227,05	200,14

 

In conclusion, Wolfgang is still the character with highest DPS in this scenario and possibly in the entire game, as he should be. I was surprised to see that "Beefalo Wendy" performs slightly worse than Wendy against mobs with planar defense. Unless of course I'm forgetting something important in my calculations. If so, please let me know. And I'm slightly disappointed that the DPS increase from the new vex elixir and from Shadow Abi isn't as high as I thought. Also, to anyone still trying to go for the "but Wes damage" argument, notice how close Wilson and Wendy (without Abigail) DPS are. That's just how post rift content works, most DPS will stay within that 150-200 threshold.

Dam I hate planar math.

If anything, this chart proves that Wendy was, and still is, a character that shines the most in the early game. Not saying all other characters do more damage later on than her, just that she doesn't scale as well the further you go.

Thanks a lot for the hard work once again!

A tiny bit small thing to note, but is not really worth remaking the entire chart over, is that shadow weapons (shadow repaer and shadow saddle) have a x1.1 multiplier against lunar enemies, so you can make damage number go even BIGGER.

But is technically not a "character" buff, so no need to include it.

3 hours ago, Picklesaurus said:

Vex potion is REALLY good pre-rift and than it falls off a LOT after rifts are open because of the nature of planar entity/defense on enemies. What you are missing is a graphic showing its damage to pre-rift content so we can compare and see that it is at the same time too much damage for pre-rift content and than too little damage increase against planar enemies. I would prefer it not be extremes on both sides, so I would like if they reduced its damage to non planar enemies a bit and increased its damage against planar enemies. 

From what I remember, it was 309 (Wendy) vs 319.2 (Wolfgang), but this one is without the affinities, since there are really few aligned non-planar mobs worth making the calculation for (Fuelweaver, Celestial Guardian), but my half assed math was 450.02 for wolfgang, though I did do the calculation with the Shadow Maul, not the Shadow Reaper, which is the same but +4 planar damage. I don't think Wendy got a particular multiplier for Lunar/shadow aligned? Unless I'm misremembering incorrectly.

[SilverSpoon]

I tested actually in game.

---

Wendy

(Edit : Fixed Abigail Attack/s 2→1.Thank you Siren11 and CremeLover)

1. Ornery + War saddle = 218.28~243.28  [101.64x2+(15~40)]

2. Ornery + Nightmare saddle =205~230 [95x2+(15~40)]

3. Ornery + War saddle + Cursed Vexation = 289.56~314.56 [137.28x2+(15~40)]

4. Ornery + Nightmare saddle + Cursed Vexation = 259~284 [122x2+(15~40)]

5. Ornery + War saddle + Cursed Vexation + Shadow Sisterhood III = 314.56~339.56 [137.28x2+(40~65)]

6. Ornery + Nightmare saddle + Cursed Vexation + Shadow Sisterhood III = 284~309 [122x2+(40~65)]

---

Wolfgang

1. Ham Bat = ~238

2. Dark sword = 272

3. Dark sword + WARBIS headgear = 285.6 → 326.4

4. Shadow Reaper + Void Cowl = 271.2 → 311.2

5. Shadow Maul + Void Cowl = 279.2 → 318.2

6. Brightshade Sword + Brightshade Helm = 287.2

---

My Opinion:

• Even before the lift, Wendy can do higher DPS than Wolfgang by combining "Ornery Befalo + War saddle + Abigail + During Night or Nightshade Nostrum." As for whether or not a Nerf is necessary in my opinion, considering that Wendy has AOE and Vex compared to Wolfgang... it's very iffy... but I think it would be okay to Nerf Wendy+Befalo to a level slightly lower than Wolfgang...  maybe... Wendy's Damage exceeds that of Wolfgang before the Rift, every 4-5 buffs (+Extra Yield), she have to kill Nightmare Werepig and Scrappy Werepig, which will take 20 days. Then I think that's within my acceptable range...
• However, about Cursed Vexation after Rift,  just pouring it on her gives her as much damage as a Dark Sword for a day. uh... Even I can't defend this. It's only too strong in the case with Beefalo, so may be a pinpoint nerf necessary.(Edit : It was pointed out that the Cursed Vexation would be reasonable if it wasn't with Beefalo. Thank you WenericMember) and I think Cursed Vexation is meant to be used after the lift, so I think it would be better to make it a more planar effect.
• If they're going to extra Nerf the others, I think it would be okay Shadow Sisterhood III to keep current or to bit buff. Every about 8 seconds killing a creature in hand and possibly reviving is busy enough to be worth the DPS.
• In response to the opinion that "Every Character shouldn't have a higher DPS than Wolfgang," Winona's Enlightened Strike can already produce an extremely high DPS of "Number of Catapults x 120 Planer Damage " . With just 4 catapults, she can produce DPS that surpasses both Wolfgang and Wendy, and by simply adding more catapults, DPS will go over the sky...

---

Evidence and other details is here

 

[Siren11]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

I tested actually in game.

---

Wendy

1. Ornery + War saddle = 233.28~283.28  [101.64x2+(15~40)x2]

2. Ornery + Nightmare saddle = 220~270 [95x2+(15~40)x2]

3. Ornery + War saddle + Cursed Vexation = 304.5~354.56 [137.28x2+(15~40)x2]

4. Ornery + Nightmare saddle + Cursed Vexation = 274~324 [122x2+(15~40)x2]

5. Ornery + War saddle + Cursed Vexation + Shadow Sisterhood III = 354.56~404.28 [137.28x2+(40~65)x2]

6. Ornery + Nightmare saddle + Cursed Vexation + Shadow Sisterhood III = 324~374 [122x2+(40~65)x2]

I may be wrong, but doesn’t Abigail only attack once per second? If so, your calculations are a bit off.

[WenericMember]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

I tested actually in game.

---

Wendy

1. Ornery + War saddle = 233.28~283.28  [101.64x2+(15~40)x2]

2. Ornery + Nightmare saddle = 220~270 [95x2+(15~40)x2]

3. Ornery + War saddle + Cursed Vexation = 304.5~354.56 [137.28x2+(15~40)x2]

4. Ornery + Nightmare saddle + Cursed Vexation = 274~324 [122x2+(15~40)x2]

5. Ornery + War saddle + Cursed Vexation + Shadow Sisterhood III = 354.56~404.28 [137.28x2+(40~65)x2]

6. Ornery + Nightmare saddle + Cursed Vexation + Shadow Sisterhood III = 324~374 [122x2+(40~65)x2]

---

Wolfgang

1. Ham Bat = ~238

2. Dark sword = 272

3. Dark sword + WARBIS headgear = 285.6 → 326.4

4. Shadow Reaper + Void Cowl = 271.2 → 311.2

5. Shadow Maul + Void Cowl = 279.2 → 318.2

6. Brightshade Sword + Brightshade Helm = 287.2

---

My Opinion:

• Even before the lift, Wendy can do higher DPS than Wolfgang by combining "Ornery Befalo + War saddle + Abigail + During Night or Nightshade Nostrum." As for whether or not a Nerf is necessary in my opinion, considering that Wendy has AOE and Vex compared to Wolfgang... it's very iffy... but I think it would be okay to Nerf Wendy+Befalo to a level slightly lower than Wolfgang...  maybe... 
• However, about Cursed Vexation,  just pouring it on her gives her as much damage as a Dark Sword for a day. uh... Even I can't defend this. I think Cursed Vexation is meant to be used after the lift, so I think it would be better to Nerf Vex value and make it a more planar effect.
• If they're going to extra Nerf the others, I think it would be okay Shadow Sisterhood III to keep current or to bit buff. Every about 8 seconds killing a creature in hand and possibly reviving is busy enough to be worth the DPS.
• In response to the opinion that "Every Character shouldn't have a higher DPS than Wolfgang," Winona's Enlightened Strike can already produce an extremely high DPS of "Number of Catapults x 120 Planer Damage " . With just 4 catapults, she can produce DPS that surpasses both Wolfgang and Wendy, and by simply adding more catapults, DPS will go over the sky...

---

Evidence and other details is here

 

The problem with this is the numbers you're using are only relevant in regards to Ornery beefalo.

On foot Wendy's damage Numbers are fine, especially as cursed vexation at a minimum requires a caves boss kill.

Nerfing Cursed Vexation just further punishes Wendy players for not using beefalo.

[CremeLover]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

I tested actually in game.

---

Wendy

1. Ornery + War saddle = 233.28~283.28  [101.64x2+(15~40)x2]

2. Ornery + Nightmare saddle = 220~270 [95x2+(15~40)x2]

3. Ornery + War saddle + Cursed Vexation = 304.5~354.56 [137.28x2+(15~40)x2]

4. Ornery + Nightmare saddle + Cursed Vexation = 274~324 [122x2+(15~40)x2]

5. Ornery + War saddle + Cursed Vexation + Shadow Sisterhood III = 354.56~404.28 [137.28x2+(40~65)x2]

6. Ornery + Nightmare saddle + Cursed Vexation + Shadow Sisterhood III = 324~374 [122x2+(40~65)x2]

---

Wolfgang

1. Ham Bat = ~238

2. Dark sword = 272

3. Dark sword + WARBIS headgear = 285.6 → 326.4

4. Shadow Reaper + Void Cowl = 271.2 → 311.2

5. Shadow Maul + Void Cowl = 279.2 → 318.2

6. Brightshade Sword + Brightshade Helm = 287.2

Thanks for your work, however, a small correction.

From my understanding, the attack period for the player is 17 frames or 0.4, and 0.5seconds was used in the OP for simplicity, since Abigail attacks once per second, and is simpler to do the final math.

Since Abigail has an attack period of 1 second, a player can get 2 attacks in for the time Abigail gets 1, which is why only the player damage gets multiplied by 2, not Abigail. And if you check the OP, only the player damage has a * 2 multiplier.

And so, I hope you don't mind me revising the numbers a bit

Wendy

1. Ornery + War saddle = 233.28~283.28 218.28~243.28  [101.64x2+(15~40)x2]

2. Ornery + Nightmare saddle = 220~270 205~230 [95x2+(15~40)x2]

3. Ornery + War saddle + Cursed Vexation = 304.5~354.56 289.56~314.56 [137.28x2+(15~40)x2]

4. Ornery + Nightmare saddle + Cursed Vexation = 274~324 259~284 [122x2+(15~40)x2]

5. Ornery + War saddle + Cursed Vexation + Shadow Sisterhood III = 354.56~404.28 314.56~339.56 [137.28x2+(40~65)x2]

6. Ornery + Nightmare saddle + Cursed Vexation + Shadow Sisterhood III = 324~374 284~309 [122x2+(40~65)x2]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

My Opinion:

• Even before the lift, Wendy can do higher DPS than Wolfgang by combining "Ornery Befalo + War saddle + Abigail + During Night or Nightshade Nostrum." As for whether or not a Nerf is necessary in my opinion, considering that Wendy has AOE and Vex compared to Wolfgang... it's very iffy... but I think it would be okay to Nerf Wendy+Befalo to a level slightly lower than Wolfgang...  maybe... 
• However, about Cursed Vexation,  just pouring it on her gives her as much damage as a Dark Sword for a day. uh... Even I can't defend this. I think Cursed Vexation is meant to be used after the lift, so I think it would be better to Nerf Vex value and make it a more planar effect.
• If they're going to extra Nerf the others, I think it would be okay Shadow Sisterhood III to keep current or to bit buff. Every about 8 seconds killing a creature in hand and possibly reviving is busy enough to be worth the DPS.
• In response to the opinion that "Every Character shouldn't have a higher DPS than Wolfgang," Winona's Enlightened Strike can already produce an extremely high DPS of "Number of Catapults x 120 Planer Damage " . With just 4 catapults, she can produce DPS that surpasses both Wolfgang and Wendy, and by simply adding more catapults, DPS will increase without limit...

- You are correct, Wendy can do more damage than Wolfgang pre-rift, because in the way their skill trees were designed, Wendy has access to the full shadow line of her skill tree, whereas Wolfgang requires a planar weapon to get the full power of the skilltree. The Vex interaction with Beefalo has never really been an issue, and while it might have been out of place before skilltree powercreep, I don't think that's the case in the current meta.
-Abigail attacks slower than a player with a dark sword, I don't think is that out of place considering is more complicated to get than regular damage, and requires another boss kill or green gems to duplicate before the rift. I would be completely fine if some of its power was shaved to make it more planar based however.
-They just nerfed Shadow Sisterhood by almost half, making it 25 base and not dependant of the day phase. I would like it if they were to make it based of the creatures you kill that surround you, not only in your inventory, like regular Abigail summoning, but I believe that's not within Klei's design plans.
-Winona does have the highest DPS with a highly expensive and non-mobile setup, though I believe Wurt might have her beat with a more mobile setup. I'll leave this video for a content creator that did +1k dps with a catapult setup with Winona.
 

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, Siren11 said:

I may be wrong, but doesn’t Abigail only attack once per second? If so, your calculations are a bit off.

1 hour ago, CremeLover said:

From my understanding, the attack period for the player is 17 frames or 0.4, and 0.5seconds was used in the OP for simplicity, since Abigail attacks once per second, and is simpler to do the final math.

That's right. I fixed to CremeLover's calculation. Thank you.

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

The problem with this is the numbers you're using are only relevant in regards to Ornery beefalo.

On foot Wendy's damage Numbers are fine, especially as cursed vexation at a minimum requires a caves boss kill.

Nerfing Cursed Vexation just further punishes Wendy players for not using beefalo.

Also that's right. I also corrected that while I fixed the calculation. Thank you.

1 hour ago, CremeLover said:

-Winona does have the highest DPS with a highly expensive and non-mobile setup, though I believe Wurt might have her beat with a more mobile setup. I'll leave this video for a content creator that did +1k dps with a catapult setup with Winona.

Thank you video. However as for Wurt, Yeah, her DPS is literally infinity... but I think it's better to remove it from the DPS comparison... because she is... Wurt lol.

[Dingle]

As always, thanks for the numbers!

I wont have time to really look close at them until Monday, but looks like Wolfgang can get 5% to 35% more damage than Wendy against planar stuff? This is actually way lower than I thought, I was lead to believe he had more of an advantage.

The only fights I think this matters on currently are Armored Bearger and Crystal Deerclops. So since Wendy kills Armored Bearger in 45 seconds, I am guessing Wolfgang can kill it in 37 or 38?

[Popian]

19 hours ago, Dingle said:

looks like Wolfgang can get 5% to 35% more damage than Wendy against planar stuff? This is actually way lower than I thought, I was lead to believe he had more of an advantage.

The only fights I think this matters on currently are Armored Bearger and Crystal Deerclops. So since Wendy kills Armored Bearger in 45 seconds, I am guessing Wolfgang can kill it in 37 or 38?

Note that because you can't attack while moving or while stunned, DPS in DST is at best an approximation. It is more practical to look at hits or cycles to kill, considering there are relatively few "unique" enemies.

Fielding testing will also give more insight as it can give a sense of what window of improvement you can get.

Bonus Varg:

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Dingle]

7 hours ago, Popian said:

 

Note that because you can't attack while moving or while stunned, DPS in DST is at best an approximation. It is more practical to look at hits or cycles to kill, considering there are relatively few "unique" enemies.

Fielding testing will also give more insight as it can give a sense of what window of improvement you can get.

Bonus Varg:

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

 

The bone armor throws off my time estimates. I'm too used to everyone using a magi and avoiding hits.