Critique of Recent Hotfix Changes

[Yifei_]

@Jason

 

The purpose of this post is to critique the changes made in this recent hotfix. I will not use any offensive language. I hope that my criticism is polite, constructive, and relevant. I believe that the Klei forums allow for such criticism.

 

Regarding the changes to Blessed Sisturn III: I would appreciate an explanation for why the player tag is less effective against certain bosses (for example, only 25% damage reduction when facing CC) and the rationale behind this design choice. These changes have rendered Blessed Sisturn III even detrimental when facing specific bosses. Moreover, I would prefer not to receive a response like "You can just turn off Blessed Sisturn III."

 

For the AI changes to Lunar Abigail, why was the attack range further increased when not riling up? This makes it difficult to position Abigail during certain boss fights, resulting in a rather poor combat experience. Additionally, why was the 1-second stun introduced? One of Wendy's unique aspects is coordinating positions with Abigail to face bosses together. This change undermines that gameplay enjoyment. If you intended to weaken Lunar Abigail, you could have adjusted her numerical values instead of her AI.

 

Regarding Cursed Vexation, I am curious about how you arrived at the physical damage multiplier of 1.3×1.6. This value is excessively powerful against pre-rift bosses but underwhelming against post-rift bosses. Why not adjust this value? Was this number tested in actual gameplay scenarios?

 

For the Mourning Glory branch, let's set aside the more contentious MG II for now. Regarding MG I, this skill is entirely useless for players with Lunar Affinity. This design flaw is quite evident—why hasn't it been addressed? As for MG III, why design a character item that duplicates the functionality of an existing in-game item? Was this done to save on coding work? Such an attitude seems rather perfunctory.

 

If there are any inappropriate wordings in my criticism or any inaccuracies regarding the game, please feel free to point them out! I will sincerely apologize.

[Dingle]

You can just turn off Blessed Sisturn III.

[DegenerateFurry]

7 minutes ago, Dingle said:

You can just turn off Blessed Sisturn III.

If the perk's bad enough that you have to turn it off to not be actively hurt by it in half of all situations, it's poorly designed. 

[Dingle]

Just now, DegenerateFurry said:

If the perk's bad enough that you have to turn it off to not be actively hurt by it in half of all situations, it's poorly designed. 

You can also turn it back on.

 

1 minute ago, Yaorin yon said:

You can close the forum or make your character weaker most of the time when you consume resources. Your attitude is already pathetic, you know?

I don't understand how it makes the character weaker, you can still heal. Check it out, try unsummoning first then heal.

[Yaorin yon]

3 minutes ago, Dingle said:

You can also turn it back on.

 

I don't understand how it makes the character weaker, you can still heal. Check it out, try unsummoning first then heal.

This is not interesting, and even makes people feel very abstract. It's like you told me that you can go offline and switch to a different save to avoid the problems I encounter in this save, it's almost frustrating.

[Koomin]

5 minutes ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

那你能闭嘴吗？

This translates to "then can you shut up?". Is that what you meant to say?  It's super innapropriate if it is.

3 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

If the perk's bad enough that you have to turn it off to not be actively hurt by it in half of all situations, it's poorly designed. 

I do think the "half of situations" is a bit overblown.  If you check out the list a lot of the "hurt" category are something trivial like lord of the fruit flies or the crab king's claws or a typo like fuelweaver.  There are really like 3 total that I would care about at all.

Regardless, I do agree that randomly having to know to look at a wiki to decide whether to remove flowers is not great.

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Yaorin yon said:

This is not interesting, and even makes people feel very abstract. It's like you told me that you can go offline and switch to a different save to avoid the problems I encounter in this save, it's almost frustrating.

What issue are you talking about again?

 

I really don't get the problem.

[Steorra]

13 minutes ago, Dingle said:

don't understand how it makes the character weaker,

It makes me have to back to Sisturn after different combat.

So this time we have to tie Wendy herself to Sisturn for 1 second waiting but not Abi for 6 mins waiting, how an "imbalance" change we have lol. We should be satisfied I guess?

[Yaorin yon]

5 minutes ago, Dingle said:

What issue are you talking about again?

 

I really don't get the problem.

The significance of this skill point is that when you activate it, you will unconditionally receive a sustained strong weakening and a conditional weak enhancement. Its activation and deactivation require you to surround a fixed building, which is a skill that consumes skill points. A person's choice of 1+1=1. I don't understand why some people would cheer for it. Do these people really not want to make the game more fun?

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, Steorra said:

It makes me have to back to Sisturn after different combat.

So this time we have to tie Wendy herself to Sisturn for 1 second waiting but not Abi for 6 mins waiting, how an "imbalance" change we have lol. We should be satisfied I guess?

1 second seems like it's less than 6 minutes.

[Steorra]

14 minutes ago, Koomin said:

This translates to "then can you shut up?". Is that what you meant to say?  It's super innapropriate if it is.

Yes I would agree with that this was a bit beyond the line, but was any difference behind the logic of "if you don't like the opinion just quit the discussion" and "if you don't like the skill just don't use it"? The thing become a sarcasm here.

7 minutes ago, Dingle said:

1 second seems like it's less than 6 minutes.

It's funny to think to make a character HAVE TO back to their home before different combats for preventing punishment from a skill is a reasonable idea. I can't hold on from laughing I'm sorry rofl.

[Yaorin yon]

10 minutes ago, Koomin said:

 

I do think the "half of situations" is a bit overblown.  If you check out the list a lot of the "hurt" category are something trivial like lord of the fruit flies or the crab king's claws or a typo like fuelweaver.  There are really like 3 total that I would care about at all.

Regardless, I do agree that randomly having to know to look at a wiki to decide whether to remove flowers is not great.

This is the first character whose ability is strongly weakened due to their skill tree. The design of consuming skill points in exchange for 1+1=1 stifles the fun of player skill point selection, making it very uncomfortable.

[Dingle]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Yes I would agree with that this was a bit beyond the line, but was any difference behind the logic of "if you don't like the opinion just quit the discussion" and "if you don't like the skill just don't use it"? The thing become a sarcasm here.

It's funny to think to make a character have to back to their home before different combats is a reasonable idea. I can't hold on from laughing I'm sorry rofl.

I mean, you can still use the skill. I meant you can turn it off and on and the Sisturn. You don't even need to necessarily go back to your base in your speedrun.

[Koomin]

5 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

This is the first character whose ability is strongly weakened due to their skill tree. The design of consuming skill points in exchange for 1+1=1 stifles the fun of player skill point selection, making it very uncomfortable.

Hey to be honest you keep putting the 1+1=1 thing in comments but I have no idea what it means.  What are you trying to say? 

I also wouldn't really agree with the statement that this is the first character that gets something weakened as part of a skill that otherwise strengthens.  Even in this beta Wortox alignment naughty/nice thing gives him a bonus in return for weakening one of his abilities. 

I'm perfectly happy with the skill point coming with a downside and actually think that it is cool.  I don't particularly like how you can't tell which bosses it is helpful versus hurtful for without looking at the wiki, though.  Generally if you have an upside or downside you should be able to tell and make decisions based upon it without guessing.

[Yaorin yon]

5 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Hey to be honest you keep putting the 1+1=1 thing in comments but I have no idea what it means.  What are you trying to say?

I also wouldn't really agree with the statement that this is the first character that gets something weakened.  Even in this beta Wortox alignment naughty/nice thing gives him a bonus in return for weakening one of his abilities.

I'm perfectly happy with the skill point coming with a downside and actually think that it is cool.  I don't particularly like how you can't tell which bosses it is helpful versus hurtful for without looking at the wiki, though.  Generally if you have an upside or downside you should be able to tell and make decisions based upon it without guessing.

What I mean is that the design of the skill tree should allow players to receive combined improvements when selecting multiple skill points. Even if not, it should at least make you feel like you have received multiple improvements. And now the skill point we are discussing not only does not match with any skill point, but even requires you to accept a huge weakening situation to obtain an unstable benefit. Votox does not need to consume skill points to obtain buffs, and his gain is extremely excellent, while his weakening is almost negligible, which is completely different from Wendy. It is not advisable to talk about drug efficacy without dosage.

[aidankocherhans]

19 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I really don't get the problem.

The skill straight up just nerfs you against some bosses, but there's no way you'd know which ones without looking it up (and more importantly, knowing that you should look it up)

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

The skill straight up just nerfs you against some bosses, but there's no way you'd know which ones without looking it up (and more importantly, knowing that you should look it up)

They're talking about a different issue.

[Koomin]

7 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

It means that there is a negative linkage between the two things, and you done/work on both things (1+1) without getting the corresponding benefit (2).

I guess I just don't understand what the two things are.  Blessed Sisturn 3 and what?

8 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

What I mean is that the design of the skill tree should allow players to receive combined improvements when selecting multiple skill points. Even if not, it should at least make you feel like you have received multiple improvements. And now the skill point we are discussing not only does not match with any skill point, but even requires you to accept a huge weakening situation to obtain an unstable benefit. Votox does not need to consume skill points to obtain buffs, and his gain is extremely excellent, while his weakening is almost negligible, which is completely different from Wendy. It is not advisable to talk about drug efficacy without dosage.

I at least would pick this skill as-is and think that my character improved, if that means anything.  I'm not saying that I don't think it can be improved (as is clear from my previous comments), but the upside definitely is a lot stronger than the downside.  Which skill does it match poorly with?

I don't want to derail the Wendy thread, but just adding that the Wortox weakening for the naughty side is definitely not negligible.  Not losing sanity from souls is often bad, and not gaining it is really bad.  It's pretty impactful. 

[Cassielu]

4 minutes ago, Koomin said:

I guess I just don't understand what the two things are.  Blessed Sisturn 3 and what?

That's Yaorin yon stuff, I honestly have no idea and wonder what he's referring to. I'm just explaining this metaphor for you. lol

[Yaorin yon]

14 minutes ago, Koomin said:

I guess I just don't understand what the two things are.  Blessed Sisturn 3 and what?

I at least would pick this skill as-is and think that my character improved, if that means anything.  I'm not saying that I don't think it can be improved (as is clear from my previous comments), but the upside definitely is a lot stronger than the downside.  Which skill does it match poorly with?

I don't want to derail the Wendy thread, but just adding that the Wortox weakening for the naughty side is definitely not negligible.  Not losing sanity from souls is often bad, and not gaining it is really bad.  It's pretty impactful. 

The 1+1 here refers to Wendy's own ability (to create Spectral Cure All) and Sisturn 3, as there is not even a single skill point in the entire skill tree that has a synergistic effect with Sisturn 3, which is also very sad. I don't understand your discussion about Votox. Votox's consumption of his soul is his main source of additional mental decline. Nowadays, Votox's battles can also stay away from groups of enemies as much as possible to avoid the aura of fear. Healing is the main benefit of Votox's use of his soul. Releasing his soul to restore his spirit is more of a compensation design for the decrease in spirit caused by consuming his soul. Since the latter disappears directly, the former is not so important anymore. In normal games, I restore my daily energy consumption through berets and other means, which is already enough.

[Koomin]

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

@Jason

 

The purpose of this post is to critique the changes made in this recent hotfix. I will not use any offensive language. I hope that my criticism is polite, constructive, and relevant. I believe that the Klei forums allow for such criticism.

 

Regarding the changes to Blessed Sisturn III: I would appreciate an explanation for why the player tag is ineffective against certain bosses and the rationale behind this design choice. These changes have rendered Blessed Sisturn III entirely detrimental when facing specific bosses. Moreover, I would prefer not to receive a response like "You can just turn off Blessed Sisturn III."

 

For the AI changes to Lunar Abigail, why was the attack range further increased when not riling up? This makes it difficult to position Abigail during certain boss fights, resulting in a rather poor combat experience. Additionally, why was the 1-second stun introduced? One of Wendy's unique aspects is coordinating positions with Abigail to face bosses together. This change undermines that gameplay enjoyment. If you intended to weaken Lunar Abigail, you could have adjusted her numerical values instead of her AI.

 

Regarding Cursed Vexation, I am curious about how you arrived at the physical damage multiplier of 1.3×1.6. This value is excessively powerful against pre-rift bosses but underwhelming against post-rift bosses. Why not adjust this value? Was this number tested in actual gameplay scenarios?

 

For the Mourning Glory branch, let's set aside the more contentious MG II for now. Regarding MG I, this skill is entirely useless for players with Lunar Affinity. This design flaw is quite evident—why hasn't it been addressed? As for MG III, why design a character item that duplicates the functionality of an existing in-game item? Was this done to save on coding work? Such an attitude seems rather perfunctory.

 

If there are any inappropriate wordings in my criticism or any inaccuracies regarding the game, please feel free to point them out! I will sincerely apologize.

Hey also giving general thoughts on all these since you put in a lot of work and it's becoming just a player tag thread.

Player tag: the best solution is to just give a % damage reduction against bosses, but I think they like the thematics of Abigail becoming more of a "player" so they are stuck.

Lunar Abigail: I think the new posted change about attack range might have been to fix stuff like the below linked post.  

I also don't think they could have fixed the previous Gestalt Abigail without adding something like the 1s lockout.  She was basically unhittable against some bosses, so no matter what they would change her damage to she would kill them while Wendy watched and snacked, just a bit slower.  They needed to change the AI (maybe could make the lockout very slightly shorter?)

Cursed vexation: this is the worst designed skill all around, I completely agree with your post.  It works too well where it is not needed, and not well enough where it is needed.  I have no idea what the plan was here.

Butterfly revive: that's a good point and is definitely weird.  There are some small uses (like keeping fresh butterflies to eat during a journey or caves trip or keeping butterflies alive and fresh for making glossamer saddle or something, but not much).  It should maybe be an offshoot of the branch so you don't have to take it to access the later ones?

Revive skill: giving multiple ways to do something isn't the worst, but also isn't the best.  I don't mind more options much, but agree it's a bit anticlimactic.

[Steorra]

13 minutes ago, Koomin said:

but I think they like the thematics of Abigail becoming more of a "player" so they are stuck

Yes this might be a point of current problems.

[Yifei_]

11 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Player tag: the best solution is to just give a % damage reduction against bosses, but I think they like the thematics of Abigail becoming more of a "player" so they are stuck.

Lunar Abigail: I think the new posted change about attack range might have been to fix stuff like the below linked post.  

I also don't think they could have fixed the previous Gestalt Abigail without adding something like the 1s lockout.  She was basically unhittable against some bosses, so no matter what they would change her damage to she would kill them while Wendy watched and snacked, just a bit slower.  They needed to change the AI (maybe could make the lockout very slightly shorter?)

Cursed vexation: this is the worst designed skill all around, I completely agree with your post.  It works too well where it is not needed, and not well enough where it is needed.  I have no idea what the plan was here.

Butterfly revive: that's a good point and is definitely weird.  There are some small uses (like keeping fresh butterflies to eat during a journey or caves trip or keeping butterflies alive and fresh for making glossamer saddle or something, but not much).  It should maybe be an offshoot of the branch so you don't have to take it to access the later ones?

Revive skill: giving multiple ways to do something isn't the worst, but also isn't the best.  I don't mind more options much, but agree it's a bit anticlimactic.

Thank you very much for your reply! And thank you for acknowledging my perspective!

As for Lunar Abigail, my opinion is that her damage could be reduced to make it more difficult for her to solo bosses easily. However, the duration of the vulnerability buff should be ensured so that Wendy needs to participate more in boss fights, and the AI design should encourage cooperation between Wendy and Abigail. After all, this is where the fun of playing Wendy lies. The current design of the 1-second stun does not achieve this effect.

The issue mentioned in this post seems to be about Normal Abigail, which is different from the problem I encountered with Lunar Abigail. When fighting the Crab King (whether it's the pre-rework or post-rework Crab King), Abigail tends to "zone out" next to the Crab King and does not provide any assistance.

[Koomin]

2 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Thank you very much for your reply! And thank you for acknowledging my perspective!

As for Lunar Abigail, my opinion is that her damage could be reduced to make it more difficult for her to solo bosses easily. However, the duration of the vulnerability buff should be ensured so that Wendy needs to participate more in boss fights, and the AI design should encourage cooperation between Wendy and Abigail. After all, this is where the fun of playing Wendy lies. The current design of the 1-second stun does not achieve this effect.

The issue mentioned in this post seems to be about Normal Abigail, which is different from the problem I encountered with Lunar Abigail. When fighting the Crab King (whether it's the pre-rework or post-rework Crab King), Abigail tends to "zone out" next to the Crab King and does not provide any assistance.

Ah ok.  Yea I would think reducing both Gestalt Abigail's damage by a bit and also reducing the duration of the 1s lockout by a bit makes sense (not to 0s but something <1).

[Yifei_]

A new video shows using Lunar Abigail against Celestial Champion Phase II after the hotfix, and Lunar Abigail's AI performance remains poor.

The performance of Normal Abigail can be referenced in this thread:

Summary: 

Blessed Sisturn III is ineffective against some bosses.

AI of Lunar Abigail cause her to perform less effectively when facing certain bosses.