Critique of Recent Hotfix Changes

[Koomin]

8 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

A new video shows using Lunar Abigail against Celestial Champion Phase II after the hotfix, and Lunar Abigail's AI performance remains poor.

 

The performance of Normal Abigail can be referenced in this thread:

Summary: 

Blessed Sisturn III is ineffective against some bosses.

AI of Lunar Abigail cause her to perform less effectively when facing certain bosses.

It's probably worth pointing out from that other thread that the bosses blessed sisturn 3 is ineffective against turned out to be a wiki trick and there's really only about 3 relevant bosses where the player tag isn't accounted for. For me personally at least it actually seems not common enough to be a problem anymore:

 

[WenericMember]

18 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

A new video shows using Lunar Abigail against Celestial Champion Phase II after the hotfix, and Lunar Abigail's AI performance remains poor.

 

The performance of Normal Abigail can be referenced in this thread:

Summary: 

Blessed Sisturn III is ineffective against some bosses.

AI of Lunar Abigail cause her to perform less effectively when facing certain bosses.

You... aren't using cure all? No Wonder Gesalt Abigail's performance is poor.

[Steorra]

12 minutes ago, Koomin said:

there's really only about 3 relevant bosses where the player tag isn't accounted for

Doubt it. At least there seems no damage difference whether with player tag or not from the observation of CC I or CC II

8 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

You... aren't using cure all? No Wonder Gesalt Abigail's performance is poor.

Tbh a consumable item should be "unnecessary" when player have enough experience for a specific boss...

[Koomin]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Doubt it. At least there seems no damage difference whether with player tag or not from the observation of CC I or CC II

What do you mean "doubt it"?  The original poster of that thread tested it all and found the wiki was just wrong if you go read the thread.  It was pretty thoroughly tested so there's not much to doubt.

[WenericMember]

18 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Tbh a consumable item should be "unnecessary" when player have enough experience for a specific boss...

Fair enough, but they did let Abigail get hit by the blender, which dealt like ~450 damage at 1:10.

I'm not going to pretend I'm better or anything, but it was doing fine for everything other than this one attack, which is almost entirely unique iirc. No other boss has such an extended, massive, mobile, high damaging hitbox. There's nothing in that video that indicates Gesalt Abby would struggle with any other boss to me.

11 minutes ago, Koomin said:

What do you mean "doubt it"?  The original poster of that thread tested it all and found the wiki was just wrong if you go read the thread.  It was pretty thoroughly tested so there's not much to doubt.

I don't think CC was tested. The bosses tested were: Frostjaw, NW, SWP, GDW, Toadstool, AF

Edit: It was listed as a player tag mob, so the wiki could be wrong in both categories, idk.

[Koomin]

7 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Fair enough, but they did let Abigail get hit by the blender, which dealt like ~450 damage.

I'm not going to pretend I'm better or anything, but it was doing fine for everything other than this one attack, which is almost entirely unique iirc. No other boss has such an extended, massive, high damaging hitbox. There's nothing in that video that indicates Gesalt Abby would struggle with any other boss.

I don't think CC was tested. The bosses tested were: Frostjaw, NW, SWP, GDW, Toadstool, AF

Edit: It was listed as a player tag mob, so the wiki could be wrong in both categories, idk.

You can tell by looking at the videos that @Yifei_ posted for the testing.  In the ones on the linked thread in the "phase 2" testing you can see about 120 damage per hit with the spinny phase 2 attack (no player tag).  In the video they posted a few minutes ago you see about 90 with the same attack. 

So unless I'm missing something it definitely is having an effect?

[WenericMember]

@Steorra @Koomin

Gesalt Abby takes ~90 damage at 1:04 from a chop attack.

Based on the wiki numbers, Gesalt Abby should be taking 133 damage. That roughly lines up with Abigail's 10% alignment reduction + the 33% reduction  from the player tag. So it exists, just not the normal 50%

3 minutes ago, Koomin said:

You can tell by looking at the videos that @Yifei_ posted for the testing.  In the ones on the linked thread in the "phase 2" testing you can see about 120 damage per hit with the spinny phase 2 attack (no player tag).  In the video they posted a few minutes ago you see about 90 with the same attack. 

So unless I'm missing something it definitely is having an effect?

That lines up with the damage #'s on the wiki (which i know isn't infalliable, but still.)

133 -> 100 from player tag, 100 -> 90 from lunar alignment reducing damage from lunar aligned mobs.

[Steorra]

19 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Fair enough, but they did let Abigail get hit by the blender, which dealt like ~450 damage at 1:10.

I'm not going to pretend I'm better or anything, but it was doing fine for everything other than this one attack, which is almost entirely unique iirc.

I guess the point is "Normal Abi has killed CC I and II without any Cure-All but Gestalt need."

[WenericMember]

Just now, Steorra said:

I guess the point is "Normal Abi has killed CC I and II without any Cure-All but Gestalt need."

I guess so, but the Blender attack is a special case, so I'd like to see more testing on other bosses before calling Lunar Abby bad.

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I guess so, but the Blender attack is a special case, so I'd like to see more testing on other bosses before calling Lunar Abby bad.

It's glad to see more testing for other scenarios later if someone would like to do it, but I personally think the CC issues is enough to questioning the original design intention of Gestalt Abi. Was it should be focused on boss fightings? If so, why GAbi become weaker in particular boss fights than Normal one? It cost 3 insight points and sacrificed AoE ability by a complex ritual, I think there's should not have any example like the test of CC which makes G-Abi become weaker than Normal considering such expensive cost.

[Yifei_]

35 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

You... aren't using cure all? No Wonder Gesalt Abigail's performance is poor.

Please read this thread: 

 

It's very easy for me to use Normal Abigail to defeat CC I&II without help from that cure potion. And this is not because Wendy is strong. It's because I've defeated CC I&II&III many times and choosing Wes is still very easy for me to defeat CC.

[Koomin]

11 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I guess the point is "Normal Abi has killed CC I and II without any Cure-All but Gestalt need."

Yea as we have been discussing in the thread here, yifeis concerns about celestial champion are perfectly valid, but they are more about gestalt Abigail's AI, not the player tag.  I just mentioned all that stuff as a response to this, which was incorrect and I didn't want more incorrect player tag data floating around, since it's confusing enough as is:

35 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Doubt it. At least there seems no damage difference whether with player tag or not from the observation of CC I or CC II

 

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, Steorra said:

It's glad to see more testing for other scenarios later if someone would like to do it, but I personally think the CC issues is enough to questioning the original design intention of Gestalt Abi. Was it should be focused on boss fightings? If so, why GAbi become weaker in particular boss fights than Normal one? It cost 3 insight points and sacrificed AoE ability by a complex ritual, I think there's should not have any example like the test of CC which makes G-Abi become weaker than Normal considering such expensive cost.

I mean you're right it shouldn't be.

But if it's just CC phase 2, I'd be willing to accept "nothing's going to work on everything, if there's a few edge cases where it fails, that's to be expected"

If it's a recurring issue against a majority of bosses in the game, I'd say that there's a bigger problem.

2 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Please read this thread: 

 

It's very easy for me to use Normal Abigail to defeat CC I&II without help from that cure potion. And this is not because Wendy is strong. It's because I've defeated CC I&II&III many times and choosing Wes is still very easy for me to defeat CC.

I was referring to specifically when she was in hiding mode. I get the point you're trying to make, but the entire point of Abigail's hiding mode is "USE CURE-ALL NOW"

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Koomin said:

more about gestalt Abigail's AI, not the player tag

I think both if them are regarding about the original discussion. Player tag give lesser effect than other booses when against CC.

And yes the AI is still broken.

[Koomin]

8 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

...

But if it's just CC phase 2, I'd be willing to accept "nothing's going to work on everything, if there's a few edge cases where it fails, that's to be expected"

If it's a recurring issue against a majority of bosses in the game, I'd say that there's a bigger problem.

...

The other reason why celestial champion is not a huge concern is just that it is so uniquely easy to walk away from it and heal, and it often just stands and watches you do it.  So you can walk away and heal Abigail back up to full health and then rejoin the battle.  So yes even if it is an edge case, it's not particularly hard to deal with.

[Yifei_]

58 minutes ago, Koomin said:

It's probably worth pointing out from that other thread that the bosses blessed sisturn 3 is ineffective against turned out to be a wiki trick and there's really only about 3 relevant bosses where the player tag isn't accounted for. For me personally at least it actually seems not common enough to be a problem anymore:

 

11 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I think both if them are regarding about the original discussion. Player tag give lesser effect than other booses when against CC.

 

I tested it again, and the damage reduction from the player tag when facing CC is approximately 25%.

[WenericMember]

3 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

 

 

I tested it again, and the damage reduction from the player tag when facing CC is approximately 25%.

It's 33%

Edit: tbh, it would probably be fine if BS3 only reduced healing by 33%, rather than 50%.

[Yifei_]

1 minute ago, WenericMember said:

It's 33%

For the roll attack of CC I, the damage multiplier is 125/166.67 = 0.75.

[WenericMember]

Just now, Yifei_ said:

For the roll attack of CC I, the damage multiplier is 125/166.67 = 0.75.

Guess it changes based on phase then.

[Yifei_]

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Guess it changes based on phase then.

For spin in phase II, the damage is: 100/133.33=0.75

[Koomin]

7 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

For the roll attack of CC I, the damage multiplier is 125/166.67 = 0.75.

 

6 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Guess it changes based on phase then.

 166.67/125 = 1.33, which is the same as the previous 120/90 = 1.33.  I don't think it changed with phase?  I think you two might just be doing the fraction in reverse of each other haha.

[Yifei_]

1 minute ago, Koomin said:

 166.67/125 = 1.33, which is the same as the previous 120/90 = 1.33.  I don't think it changed with phase?

The original damage was 166.67. After 25% damage reduction, the damage is 166.67*(1-0.25)=125.

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Koomin said:

 

 166.67/125 = 1.33, which is the same as the previous 120/90 = 1.33.  I don't think it changed with phase?  I think you two might just be doing the fraction in reverse of each other haha.

2 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

For spin in phase II, the damage is: 100/133.33=0.75

Oh right I forgot math rofl. I need sleep.

[Yifei_]

I have corrected the numerical error regarding the player tag in the post. Thanks for pointing it out.

[SilverSpoon]

6 hours ago, Dingle said:

You can just turn off Blessed Sisturn III.

Don't forget to also write that currently I have to go back to a faraway base to do this, or set up Sisturns all over the map and carry easily spoil Lune Tree Blossoms around all the time. We don't like that part.

If it could be switched on and off directly from Abigail's Flower... well, that's too strong, so I think it would be better if it gave a healing debuff for a while after PlayerTag Deffence was applied.