Critique of Recent Hotfix Changes

[Yifei_]

3 hours ago, WenericMember said:

I was referring to specifically when she was in hiding mode. I get the point you're trying to make, but the entire point of Abigail's hiding mode is "USE CURE-ALL NOW"

I believe the role of Cure-All in CC boss fights is to increase the margin for error, rather than being a mandatory option like in AFW boss fights. Speed potions are sufficient; there’s no need to waste Cure-All. If I can dodge, why should I tank damage unnecessarily?

Since you mentioned the hiding mode, I have to say I strongly dislike this design. It barely improves Abigail's survivability but significantly hinders her damage output. The unnecessary hiding mode makes Abigail more prone to running around randomly, making it harder to position her and increasing her chances of dying in boss fights.

What my post aims to prove is the two potential issues with Lunar Abigail's AI: her overly aggressive attack behavior when not riled up, and the seemingly pointless 1-second stun.

[Dingle]

5 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

A new video shows using Lunar Abigail against Celestial Champion Phase II after the hotfix, and Lunar Abigail's AI performance remains poor.

 

The performance of Normal Abigail can be referenced in this thread:

Summary: 

Blessed Sisturn III is ineffective against some bosses.

AI of Lunar Abigail cause her to perform less effectively when facing certain bosses.

She seems to be doing pretty well in the video for awhile, even with no unsummoning, healing, or team spirit commands.

I bet she'd do really well in combination with team spirit commands.

[Yifei_]

7 minutes ago, Dingle said:

She seems to be doing pretty well in the video for awhile, even with no unsummoning, healing, or team spirit commands.

I bet she'd do really well in combination with team spirit commands.

You see that Lunar Abigail performed well in the first half because I was doing my utmost to adjust the positions between Wendy, Lunar Abigail, and CC. However, this adjustment process was quite unstable and prone to errors. This is where the problem with Lunar Abigail's AI lies.

I explained in this post why I didn't use healing potions and Team Spirits. These are not unique to Lunar Abigail; Normal Abigail can use them as well. Moreover, Normal Abigail's performance is so good that she can excel in CC I&II boss battles without needing these aids.

 

[Dingle]

7 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

You see that Lunar Abigail performed well in the first half because I was doing my utmost to adjust the positions between Wendy, Lunar Abigail, and CC. However, this adjustment process was quite unstable and prone to errors. This is where the problem with Lunar Abigail's AI lies.

I explained in this post why I didn't use healing potions and Team Spirits. These are not unique to Lunar Abigail; Normal Abigail can use them as well. Moreover, Normal Abigail's performance is so good that she can excel in CC I&II boss battles without needing these aids.

 

I see on the adjustment, it would be nice if she didn't keep trying to run into boss hitbox.

How is she on phase 3, anyway? Seems left out.

[IAmAFurrz]

13 hours ago, Koomin said:

Butterfly revive: that's a good point and is definitely weird.  There are some small uses (like keeping fresh butterflies to eat during a journey or caves trip or keeping butterflies alive and fresh for making glossamer saddle or something, but not much).  It should maybe be an offshoot of the branch so you don't have to take it to access the later ones?

i think its made for theme + just comboes with 25 vex increase for abi

[Yifei_]

8 hours ago, Dingle said:

How is she on phase 3, anyway? Seems left out.

I have tested it, and CC III does not have the issue I mentioned, so I didn't record a video.

[Dingle]

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

I have tested it, and CC III does not have the issue I mentioned, so I didn't record a video.

Ok. Was curious as to whether lunar abby was better at cc III at least, or shadow was still better there, or they were about equal.

[Yifei_]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

Ok. Was curious as to whether lunar abby was better at cc III at least, or shadow was still better there, or they were about equal.

Lunar is better at CC III

[Dingle]

20 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Lunar is better at CC III

If both shadow and lunar aren't using Team Spirit commands, right?

[Yifei_]

3 minutes ago, Dingle said:

If both shadow and lunar aren't using Team Spirit commands, right?

Yes. Without Team Spirits, it is quite difficult for Normal/Shadow Abigail to avoid damage from CC III. However, Lunar Abigail will maintain a certain distance from CC III, and after riling up, she won't stand next to me, which helps avoid laser damage.

The roll skill of CC I and the spin skill of CC II are both highly effective against Lunar Abigail's AI. The characteristics of these skills are that they have a long range of movement and deal high damage during the movement.

In my opinion, Lunar Abigail should be weaker than Normal/Shadow Abigail when facing bosses that require AOE damage, such as the Bee Queen. However, she should be stronger when facing bosses that do not require AOE.

[TeaY]

Yes, I have always thought that a one-second pause is quite unreasonable and it also makes Abigail look very uncomfortable. I agree that we can reduce Abigail's damage (and if you think the invincible frame is too powerful, then we can stop considering it) in exchange for a smarter AI and a more fluid Abigail, which will make the battle more normal.

[Yifei_]

9 hours ago, TeaY said:

Yes, I have always thought that a one-second pause is quite unreasonable and it also makes Abigail look very uncomfortable. I agree that we can reduce Abigail's damage (and if you think the invincible frame is too powerful, then we can stop considering it) in exchange for a smarter AI and a more fluid Abigail, which will make the battle more normal.

The essence of the issue with the second version was that the numbers were too high; dealing 400+100 damage in one hit was simply outrageous. I have no idea how such numbers were conceived.

As for the invincible frame, I certainly hope it wasn't removed. However, if Lunar Abigail's AI is sufficiently cooperative with the player's actions, I don't mind if the removing of invincible frame is retained. After all, the impact of the invincible frame is not that severe.

I speculate that the addition of a 1-second stun was to prevent Lunar Abigail from being able to take on bosses solo to "cheat," but on one hand, I doubt that the so-called bosses were tested beyond Treeguard and Deerclop, and on the other hand, adding this actually disrupts the normal gameplay experience of maneuvering with Abigail to avoid damage.

Moreover, there are also significant issues with the conditions for Lunar's form transformation.

[TeaY]

14 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

The essence of the issue with the second version was that the numbers were too high; dealing 400+100 damage in one hit was simply outrageous. I have no idea how such numbers were conceived.

As for the invincible frame, I certainly hope it wasn't removed. However, if Lunar Abigail's AI is sufficiently cooperative with the player's actions, I don't mind if the removing of invincible frame is retained. After all, the impact of the invincible frame is not that severe.

I speculate that the addition of a 1-second stun was to prevent Lunar Abigail from being able to take on bosses solo to "cheat," but on one hand, I doubt that the so-called bosses were tested beyond Treeguard and Deerclop, and on the other hand, adding this actually disrupts the normal gameplay experience of maneuvering with Abigail to avoid damage.

Moreover, there are also significant issues with the conditions for Lunar's form transformation.

Yes, in my own test, I found that this one second of time would cause Abigail to suffer a lot of additional damage. It not only reduced Abigail's survival rate but also distracted my attention excessively.

[Yifei_]

5 hours ago, TeaY said:

Yes, in my own test, I found that this one second of time would cause Abigail to suffer a lot of additional damage. It not only reduced Abigail's survival rate but also distracted my attention excessively.

The most fundamental reason is that it's hard to pull Lunar Abigail away in time. If one truly feels that Lunar Abigail is too overpowered, it could be addressed by reducing her damage output. However, this kind of design that directly disrupts the Wendy's gameplay style is really quite poor.

这个最核心的原因就是没法及时把月阿比拉开。如果真觉得月阿比过于超模啥的完全可以通过削减她的伤害来完调整。目前这种直接破坏游玩核心思路的设计真的很糟糕。