Why not make insight bound to a world and not to an account?

[Axolotl Jack]

(This probably have been asked or proposed before but I couldn't find a similar topic rn, sorry)

So I know I'm late to the topic but considering devs have been reducing time to acquire insight not so long ago the entire system might still be up for discussion

As the title says, I think that if insight accumulation were to be reset and separate for every new world (including defeated bosses for the sake of affinity skills) that would establish a level-playing field for survivors on a new server, especially PvP ones even if I don't have much experience with them (e.g. a player who recently started playing/unlocked a character will not be behind a guy who had gained max insight beforehand, be it through console or another world) plus it would offer potential adaptability and decision-making instead of pre-defined build (e.g. after activating the rain chest trap, wurt player might prioritise amphibian skills for near future instead of merm ones)

I honestly can't say whether current time needed for max insight would fit that system but as some other people have suggested before me (I think), skill trees might use more requirements to unlock skills that also work as indirect tutorial (similar to how affinities need you to defeat respective bosses). While those can be obligatory, my idea would be to create smaller tasks as an alternative to waiting for insight (e.g. if you befriend enough pigmen as Wolfgang you can learn "Coach Wolfgang" without spending insight [but you lose 1 max insight so you still learn the same amount of skills at max]) but hopefully not too grindy, easy or repetitive

I haven't been active on forums so I'm sorry in advance if that suggestion has already been discarded or is generally bad or is not the main topic of this beta qwq

[Steorra]

This was mentioned in General Discussion for sometimes as I saw. There one of the main issues of this is - all skill trees we currently have were designed based on the currently mechanic. It means is Klei want to change it in some way like you have mentioned here, they will need massive effort and resources to rework all skill trees what we have now. It's a bit... Unrealistic.

[DaDa_waw]

1 hour ago, Axolotl Jack said:

I honestly can't say whether current time needed for max insight would fit that system but as some other people have suggested before me (I think), skill trees might use more requirements to unlock skills that also work as indirect tutorial (similar to how affinities need you to defeat respective bosses). While those can be obligatory, my idea would be to create smaller tasks as an alternative to waiting for insight (e.g. if you befriend enough pigmen as Wolfgang you can learn "Coach Wolfgang" without spending insight [but you lose 1 max insight so you still learn the same amount of skills at max]) but hopefully not too grindy, easy or repetitive

I have posted similar messages before, and to be honest, this is actually a desirable direction. I really hope that this direction can be achieved in the future.
But for now, KLei may have no energy to solve these problems, or in other words, "no ability" to do these tasks. For this situation, it is more exhausting and frustrating.

[Arepantera]

The problem is that some characters got "rebalanced" around the idea of having all of their new skills from day 1

Willow for example, if you have to wait like... I don't know anymore how many days you have to wait to get 8 skill points... 50? 70? to get her lunar/shadow flames, then she goes back to being a bottom of the barrel tier character.
The whole system would need a rework for that to work.

Altho I like the idea of having 15 insight points from the start and then meeting some requirements to unlock some skills

[Well-met]

There's no reason not to do it other than the expected resistance to change.

 

5 hours ago, arepana said:

The problem is that some characters got "rebalanced" around the idea of having all of their new skills from day 1

How so? What terrible challenge or adversary preys upon characters on the first autumn?

[OMEGASCRUFF]

I don't think it would be a bad thing at all if this was a toggle-able setting for a server. If people want to play with Insight as a progression system, sure, why not? We have a lot of customization options already, and this seems like a fine thing to include.

Although, I do realize that the system is currently not built for this at all, and it would need to be instanced somehow for individual servers. I don't think this would be necessarily hard to implement, but it would definitely be work compared to other world settings that can just have their values toggled.

[DVGMedia]

32 minutes ago, Well-met said:

There's no reason not to do it other than the expected resistance to change.

 

How so? What terrible challenge or adversary preys upon characters on the first autumn?

Thing is this only really affects long term worlds.
DST Is a long game to play to get everything done.

And alot of players can only really play that starting year or two.

Theres just no real good way to rework it  into a system that works for everyone.

you can try and set it to tasks done in the game but then new players may not be able to achieve them.

Daycount makes it so that players don't have much time to play can never use the new toys.

 

[Well-met]

4 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Daycount makes it so that players don't have much time to play can never use the new toys.

rewarding players with progression is something that virtually all games do. Why would dst be any different?

don't have time to play? Then make some.

[Arepantera]

30 minutes ago, Well-met said:

How so? What terrible challenge or adversary preys upon characters on the first autumn?

if there is no Wendy in the server but there is a willow, she can be the AOE damage dealer. With her you can comfortably rush bee queen before the first winter with minimal equipment as long as she throws a couple of lunar flames.
Without her skill's unlocked from day one she just becomes a lame character with a lame very conditional guardian.

Woodie and wormwood too become lame, altho not as much as willow who basically becomes a non-character again.
Wolfgang and wigfrid don't really care about this.
It's going to be very weird if walter always had to first wait to get the skill points and then wait more for woby to get its training, then wait even more to craft ammo that you already have the materials for

This proposed system damages bad characters more than others. Which is why I don't see it ever changing, the current one is just better because let's be honest, skill trees are just disguised reworks and rebalances.

[DVGMedia]

Just now, Well-met said:

rewarding players with progression is something that virtually all games do. Why would dst be any different?

don't have time to play? Then make some.

That is so not considerate of others woo!

I think it takes 70 days for the entire amount of insight to be gained?
That is 9 and a half hours of gameplay. If you are not a person who works or has other obligations other than play games
Thats is easy to manage. Lets have 9.5 hours in order for you to fully enjoy your character. Honestly that sounds like a micro transaction  that some game companies do.
Want to skip the wait and have your insight early Pay a dollar! Thats just not good design its greedy design.
A good majority of people only ever play autumn unless they are on an endless server because that in itself is  the usual play time.
Since survival servers usually reset every day They don't usually get the chance to make it far enough to receive those points..
 

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Well-met said:

There's no reason not to do it other than the expected resistance to change.

 

How so? What terrible challenge or adversary preys upon characters on the first autumn?

Winona's base kit was restructured in a way that requires her skills points for her catapults to function properly. Walter's ammo efficiency becomes terrible again for a long time into a world due to the prerequisites. Woodie suffers from the same issues he had pre skill tree. Some Willow players might feel incentivised to not get her fire saftey skills early on for the sake of having more proactive skills etc.

For Characters who are fine pre skill tree this change works but those whose skill trees fix core issues of their characters this change would be terrible without adding a additional level of reworks to fix base kit issues outside of the skill trees.

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

Thing is this only really affects long term worlds.
DST Is a long game to play to get everything done.

And alot of players can only really play that starting year or two.

Theres just no real good way to rework it  into a system that works for everyone.

you can try and set it to tasks done in the game but then new players may not be able to achieve them.

Daycount makes it so that players don't have much time to play can never use the new toys.

 

To play a bit of devil's advocate I feel like making you commit to long term worlds was the initial intent of skill trees but they seemed to change that mindset part way through devolpement at some point and made it so some features they definitely want for the end game while others they don't even ones that require killing end game bosses.

Basically I'm stuck somewhere in the middle I think skill trees should make you commit to a world to gain their power to avoid upsetting the balance of the early game but core quality of life that they implement shouldn't be part of the skill tree specifically.

[congrongfuguo]

或许可以在创建世界时 作为世界设定的一部分 

Perhaps it can be included as part of the world setting when creating the world

把可以随时切换技能做成某个角色技能树的一部分也是个有趣的主意 比如WX-78

Making the ability to switch skills at any time a part of a character's skill tree is also an interesting idea, such as the WX-78

[Edible Coal]

i mean if they use that system then they can just speed up the whole 15 point thing into like 20 days or so 

[Axolotl Jack]

Ok so looking back I think the main issue is that the majority of worlds from my experience either last until first spring or so (especially multiplayer survival) or are endless (and Id argue that DST has been leaning towards more long term goals than roguelike as a whole), very rarely inbetween

 

As such in first case my proposed system would only handicap players up until the insight limit they’ll never reach, in second case it would basically be the same as current system since you are not going to start a new world anyway

 

So far the safest option I can think of would be to make it togglable up to everyone’s liking if enough people want this alternative, be it challenge or fairness, tho I respect those who prefer the current system 

 

I do agree btw that adding sub tasks for most skills (just to clarify “most”, not all since not all skills can be linked to a specific task that’s fun to complete [e.g. Wolfgang’s “Chore workout” - like, what would quest would it require? Mine 10 rocks? That’s gonna be either grindy or not specific to a character]) would require a lot of work and therefore it might be better postponed until all skill trees are complete

[SilverSpoon]

16 hours ago, Well-met said:

How so? What terrible challenge or adversary preys upon characters on the first autumn?

Every night Full moon by Lunar Grimoire.

Also if you have SpeedRunner in your party, it's possible that Lunar Alter will be completed before you can get Lunar Renegade on day 58.

[TizianOwO]

Insight is supposed to exist as meta-progression.

So new players, even if they die every 15 days or something, still get stronger and start at a better point the next time they play that character.

[Debruh]

It will also just harm skills like Woodie's wooden cane, Wilson being able to make an iridescent gem. Why do it when ny that time, the team has walking canes and probably an iridescent gem via mooncaller.

[DaDa_waw]

51 minutes ago, Debruh said:

It will also just harm skills like Woodie's wooden cane, Wilson being able to make an iridescent gem. Why do it when ny that time, the team has walking canes and probably an iridescent gem via mooncaller.

I think his viewpoint may be to change the skill tree unlocked by insight points to a skill tree unlocked by task conditions, rather than simply referring to resetting insight points in each world (hopefully I understand this meaning)
Like Woody's wooden cane, its unlocking task can simply be to "cut down trees on two different terrains once each". This can serve as a guide for players and quickly unlock skills.

[Axolotl Jack]

1 hour ago, TizianOwO said:

Insight is supposed to exist as meta-progression.

So new players, even if they die every 15 days or something, still get stronger and start at a better point the next time they play that character.

Honestly for some reason I've never thought of it like that before but you might be right

[Mike23Ua]

I don’t think anyone wants to grind continuously over and over again per world PER CHARACTER.

The only people who want to do that, are the ones who enjoy unnecessary & painfully slow grind in games.

I’ll use Dead Island and Dead Island Riptide as my example- if you busted your behind off in DI 1, and you fully maxed out your character, you could import that fully maxed out DI 1 character over into DI Riptide at the beginning.

even in solo DS when you progressed far enough or done X task to unlock a certain character, they remained useable for all future playthroughs.

Locking insight per world per character would be what made me delete DST and never play it again…

Why? Because I’ve had 3 nasty bugs happen on separate occasions in the past that completely wiped all my progress & world saves.

What your asking for only SOUNDS Fun, Until… you have to do it so often it becomes Unfun.

[aidancode]

7 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I don’t think anyone wants to grind continuously over and over again per world PER CHARACTER.

The only people who want to do that, are the ones who enjoy unnecessary & painfully slow grind in games.

I’ll use Dead Island and Dead Island Riptide as my example- if you busted your behind off in DI 1, and you fully maxed out your character, you could import that fully maxed out DI 1 character over into DI Riptide at the beginning.

even in solo DS when you progressed far enough or done X task to unlock a certain character, they remained useable for all future playthroughs.

Locking insight per world per character would be what made me delete DST and never play it again…

Why? Because I’ve had 3 nasty bugs happen on separate occasions in the past that completely wiped all my progress & world saves.

What your asking for only SOUNDS Fun, Until… you have to do it so often it becomes Unfun.

I assume based on the fact that you would be unwilling to put in the effort to max out a character skill tree in each world that you also use too many items to give yourself free thulecite gear on day 1? Or does your incredibly flimsy logic of "needing to grind on each world would make me uninstall" only apply to this very specific game mechanic that is way less critical than item progression? This is a really unstable critique of the original post, no matter what flaws might ultimately exist with it. If they were to do a system where insight had to be re-earned in every world it would disincentivize using characters as swap characters while still letting people use console commands to force their way ahead if they really can't stand the system.

[Siren11]

34 minutes ago, aidancode said:

I assume based on the fact that you would be unwilling to put in the effort to max out a character skill tree in each world that you also use too many items to give yourself free thulecite gear on day 1? Or does your incredibly flimsy logic of "needing to grind on each world would make me uninstall" only apply to this very specific game mechanic that is way less critical than item progression? This is a really unstable critique of the original post, no matter what flaws might ultimately exist with it. If they were to do a system where insight had to be re-earned in every world it would disincentivize using characters as swap characters while still letting people use console commands to force their way ahead if they really can't stand the system.

Console players exist and can’t use mods or commands.

If skill trees had been designed differently from the start, then maybe they could be unlocked per world rather than per account. But since certain characters basically require their skill trees to stay relevant and skill trees act as a form of meta progression (especially for newer players), I think it’s best for them to stay the way they are.

(I also don’t really think it be fun to unlock skills based on doing tasks, unless it was optional and insight didn’t reset each world. I like that I have the freedom to do whatever I want with the current system.)

[Mike23Ua]

4 hours ago, aidancode said:

I assume based on the fact that you would be unwilling to put in the effort to max out a character skill tree in each world that you also use too many items to give yourself free thulecite gear on day 1? Or does your incredibly flimsy logic of "needing to grind on each world would make me uninstall" only apply to this very specific game mechanic that is way less critical than item progression? This is a really unstable critique of the original post, no matter what flaws might ultimately exist with it. If they were to do a system where insight had to be re-earned in every world it would disincentivize using characters as swap characters while still letting people use console commands to force their way ahead if they really can't stand the system.

I play on Xbox, you either play the game the legit way there, or you don’t play at all.

For an Xbox player to get anything even remotely CLOSE to console commands to gain skill points, they’d need to turn off every potential threat that can kill them in world Gen settings and then let the game run for literal hours (checking back to assign unspec’d skills every so often)

[O_Atoba_Azul]

As someone who did mod this into existance as a test, the very first reply here by @Steorra is indeed very much true.
Most skilltrees just didn't feel good with that, even with alternative systems to gain Insight. They'd need to be reworked.
 

[AliceShiki]

Changing the system to Insight per World basically ruins Willow as a character, and also makes every early game perk useless.

Like, why would anyone ever get anything on Wilson's Torch Tree if they would only get Torches points long after they get Lanterns and Miner's Hats? Even the Beard Perks would be in trouble if you prioritized transmutation before Winter came around.

Why would anyone get Woodie's Cane if they could have a Walking Cane by then?

Or like, with Wendy as an example... Needing to wait until later to get the stuff related to pipspook and grave moving could also be a real pain.

The system just works better as an account-wide progression system.