Swap Characters & Such

[Vinja]

11 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Because that lunar magic, specifically that book, literally strengthens the entity in opposition to Charlie, who he has a deal with and is the source of things like his shadow prison, which you can see has roses in it.

Skins are weird, because while a part of them seems to be canon, if every skin and every part of it is, then somehow Abby's flower changes shape and type frequently? The flower on Wendy's head, sure. But Abby's flower? So it's not like they're an ideal place to get ideas from.

Also, one of his skins is William Carter, which considering his ego, I highly doubt he would expose his original identity, or even just dress as 

Literally strengthens the entity in opposition to charlie... yeah for one night lol.

Full moons are a natural occurrence anyway, they're inevitable.

There are things that can only be achieved during a full moon and if casting the spell speeds up the next full moon so Maxwell can get what he needs from it, it's totally within his character to do so.

It's not like having a full moon loses them the war, in fact if they wanna defeat altar they have to do so during a full moon. Full moons are inevitable. 

[Debruh]

34 minutes ago, Vinja said:

Literally strengthens the entity in opposition to charlie... yeah for one night lol.

Full moons are a natural occurrence anyway, they're inevitable.

There are things that can only be achieved during a full moon and if casting the spell speeds up the next full moon so Maxwell can get what he needs from it, it's totally within his character to do so.

It's not like having a full moon loses them the war, in fact if they wanna defeat altar they have to do so during a full moon. Full moons are inevitable. 

One night, two nights, for however many nights Max uses the moon.

What's the point here exactly? Yea they're natural, doesn't mean that Max will just go around making sure that something he fears and opposes his source of power is strengthened at times that it shouldn't be, which also causes new moons to be delayed, windows of opportunity where the shadows have reign

Not really much benefit is gotten through it though. Not like Max is gonna want glommer that badly.

Alter needing to be defeated through a full moon hasn't bee established. Its presence is diminished during new moons. Wagstaff needed it to be full of strength to siphon its power. A lot of alignments align Charlie vs the cryptic founder aka Wagstaff, so it's not like she supports Wag.

[Debruh]

1 hour ago, Vinja said:

might want a moon callers staff so he can  deconstruct it and use the gem to activate the archives so he and charlie have access to the forbidden knowledge,  no?

That's a one time thing though. And Wilson and Willow were the ones to get the moon caller staff, not even Max.

1 hour ago, Vinja said:

dude I'm done talking to you. You're reaching like crazy at this point and you continue to make less and less sense with every post. I get it, it's the internet, no one can admit when they're wrong. Let's just call it a draw then. Or you win actually, if that helps you sleep better. There is absolutely no situation in which maxwell would find it beneficial to use the full moon spell and he would definitely never experiment with magic, its simply not in his character. You've convinced me. Have a good night.

I can understand being frustrated, but typing this out after making an argument is like shouting out something real quick them closing the door, ngl

[BeastNleashed]

Well i mean you are right, many people just do infinite Generator + lights + winbots and stuff and changing back to XY. BUT its far less than before the Update since Winonas Catapults and the Teleport and stuff is really strong. And i mean at least people play Winona, not like other Chars. 

For the Wickerbottom stuff i totally agree.. i really really like to play her, but if im done with alls my books i just switch to Maxwell, because why shouldn't i? Wickers whole existing is just making Bookcase and Books for Maxwell and yes the CC Fight as Wicker is also annoying. 

[shigu.exe]

15 hours ago, Debruh said:

Skins are weird, because while a part of them seems to be canon, if every skin and every part of it is, then somehow Abby's flower changes shape and type frequently? The flower on Wendy's head, sure. But Abby's flower? So it's not like they're an ideal place to get ideas from.

I tend to think of the skins as non-canon but nonetheless saying something about the character, like an alternate universe or timeline.

[Debruh]

5 minutes ago, shigu.exe said:

I tend to think of the skins as non-canon but nonetheless saying something about the character, like an alternate universe or timeline.

Amazing pfp aside, I used to think so too. But apparently Verdant Wendy appeared somewhere according to someone.

And in the cyclum comics, Wolfgang appears in a skin

[shigu.exe]

8 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Amazing pfp aside, I used to think so too. But apparently Verdant Wendy appeared somewhere according to someone.

And in the cyclum comics, Wolfgang appears in a skin

That's true, I suppose they are canon in the sense that the survivors do receive gifts in the form of skins to wear.

But I feel like certain skins are modelled after alternate timelines and such, like the Triumphants being what said character would look like if they got control of the Nightmare Throne, for example.

[Arepantera]

One of the problems with Winona is that a character that is based on crafting structures is intrinsically a swap character or one that eventually leads players to think of that character as one made for swapping.
Maybe adding structure abilities that only she can activate would make her less of a swap character, like with the remote catapult skills, but more skills should be added and should affect more structures. For example, when a Winona gets close to a spotlight and she uses her remote, three new options could appear, one for hot light, one for cold light, and one to disable the effect. Then she could have a new command when near one of her winbots to make it follow her. Maybe have a special mobile mini generator and a mobile mini spotlight that can only ever follow her.


Wickerbottom....
The popular opinion is that she lost her identity thanks to maxwell, but in my opinion she didn't, she lost her identity thanks to her bookcase.
Prior to her refresh, you STILL needed a Wickerbottom in your server because those books would eventually run out, but now that they're infinite, wicker doesn't need to be there anymore. The bookcase was badly implemented in my opinion, Maxwell should always be able to read her books because that's what makes sense, he's a magician, he can cast spells, he should use wicker's books too. However only she should be able to open that bookcase, that would have made it so that she's needed in the world.

But now that this has been a part of the game for so long, I wouldn't nerf the bookcase because that would just annoy players, instead I think Wicker should get extra effects unique to her when she reads her books. Like maybe one of her perks could make it so she summons wasps, stronger and aren't loyal to the queen, instead of bees. Maybe her horticulture abridged doesn't make plants wither faster when she reads them. Maybe horticulture expanded gets extra uses when she reads it and it instantly harvests plants and bushes that are already in a grown state, making it so the food drops to the ground and then a new one instantly grows. Maybe she could read way faster so that she could use her sleeping book and arachnophobia in combat. Maybe her rain book could instantly fertilize withered plants. Maybe she could corrupt one use of her lunar book with nightmarefuel to force a new moon. I'd like it if books regenerated in her inventory and didn't disappear when they reach 0%, but rather become unusable until they regen up to 20% or 33% depending on the book. I could write a lot of fanfiction and a big wish list of things that I'd love to be added to wicker but you get what I mean.

There are many things that could be added to her that could make her cooler and more desirable as a playable character rather than nerfing something that has been a part of the game for a while,

[shigu.exe]

15 minutes ago, arepana said:

Wickerbottom....
The popular opinion is that she lost her identity thanks to maxwell, but in my opinion she didn't, she lost her identity thanks to her bookcase.
Prior to her refresh, you STILL needed a Wickerbottom in your server because those books would eventually run out, but now that they're infinite, wicker doesn't need to be there anymore. The bookcase was badly implemented in my opinion, Maxwell should always be able to read her books because that's what makes sense, he's a magician, he can cast spells, he should use wicker's books too. However only she should be able to open that bookcase, that would have made it so that she's needed in the world.

Do people not remember what Wickerbottom was like before her refresh? People were essentially reliant on getting a Reed Trap set piece in their worlds because of the absurd quantities of reeds needed to regularly use books. The Bookcase makes it so now she just has some setup and can re-use them, which is vastly preferable in my opinion.

It makes a lot of sense for Maxwell to be able to read her books which does make it complicated to remove, though sometimes concessions kinda have to be made for the sake of gameplay, even if it conflicts with canon (see: Wortox hissing at Garlic and Salt but nothing special actually happening when you eat them).

With the changes you propose, Wickerbottom goes from being completely irrelevant to... a magic dealer? Yeah, you technically need her around to get more books, but a lot of the time her books are used for farms or setups in late-game worlds, and I could honestly see people switching to Wicker and back just to bulk craft whatever is needed. This is a hassle and costs a lot of resources, of course, but the benefits of playing Maxwell (and also basically playing Wicker at the same time) could be worth it to some people. It's still not really all that healthy for the game.

I do think her books will get stronger for her when she receives a Skill Tree (alongside some new books too, of course), and maybe that will help alleviate the issue a bit, but I'm still firm on Maxwell not being able to be two characters in one, limitations notwithstanding.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

Wickerbottom's Shadow Affinity should let her read the Codex Umbra, just to send a message and assert dominance.

:^)

[salty_cookie]

4 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Wickerbottom's Shadow Affinity should let her read the Codex Umbra, just to send a message and assert dominance

Wickerbottom can have up to 8 shadow puppets and once due to her having more maximum sanity. And she has more max health.
Klei adding that would be the ultimate wicker update.

[Arepantera]

2 hours ago, shigu.exe said:

Do people not remember what Wickerbottom was like before her refresh? People were essentially reliant on getting a Reed Trap set piece in their worlds because of the absurd quantities of reeds needed to regularly use books.

Of course I do, we all do. Don't starve was at its most popular stage years ago and most people tried the strongest characters at least once, wicker being one of them. In reality you didn't need that set piece, it was a massive boon to her if it was in the world, but you could play just fine without it just fine, specially since back then her regrowth book had no cap and could regrow all plants food and trees. If I remember correctly the moon quay island happened a bit earlier than her refresh, making reed traps even less necessary.
 

 

2 hours ago, shigu.exe said:

The Bookcase makes it so now she just has some setup and can re-use them, which is vastly preferable in my opinion.

It is a very good quality of life item, I can't disagree there, but if wickerbottom "lost" to someone or something, is to that structure, which again in my opnion from the start is a structure that only her could interact with.

 

 

2 hours ago, shigu.exe said:

With the changes you propose, Wickerbottom goes from being completely irrelevant to... a magic dealer? Yeah, you technically need her around to get more books, but a lot of the time her books are used for farms or setups in late-game worlds, and I could honestly see people switching to Wicker and back just to bulk craft whatever is needed. This is a hassle and costs a lot of resources, of course, but the benefits of playing Maxwell (and also basically playing Wicker at the same time) could be worth it to some people. It's still not really all that healthy for the game.

The problem is that the changes you propose (Maxwell not being able to read her books) also lead to her being a magic dealer/swap character. In the sceneario where Maxwell gets nerfed, if for some reason I want to have 400 bananas I'll swap to wicker, read her books, collect with a scythe and a lazy forager, then I put them in salt boxes or bearger bins, where they'll basically last forever and swap to an actual fun character and never play as wicker again, or unless I want more bananas.

She will still be a swap character, because at her very core she is a character that sets up farms or traps, once you've used the farms a couple of times you have no reason to keep playing wicker, and once you've set up the trap you can reuse it almost as many times as you want.

Wicker doesn't need book exclusivity, she needs stronger powers that would make you want to keep playing as her, most of her books can be ignored because in one way or another you can get what you want without them. Need more resources? craft a golden shovel and relocate some more things, you'll end with excess of resources anyway. Want food? Get 15 stone fruit bushes, you'll end up with excess of food. Or set up a bunnyman spider farm. Realistically speaking the only books that let her do something that no one can are the fishing book, because getting fish is kinda hard, no one can mass produce surf n turf like wicker. The tentacle book and the moon book,  I mean one can argue that the moon book doesn't give her a unique power because you can force full moons with the altars, but we all know that the moon book is just goated. 

if those books had special, unique effects when she used them, now that would be great. Like, how cool would it be if birds of the world sped up baby tallbirds' growth rate, or if it recruited nearby tallbirds or stopped teens from becoming aggressive adults. What if you could empower her end is nigh book so that it forces a meteorite shower. What if Tempering temperatures had this frostfire effect that both freezed and burned regular mobs. 

Maybe this is something that we won't agree on, but I'm always going to be of the opinion that nerfing Maxwell wont make wicker a better character or not a swap character, the way to make her books do more interesting and unique stuff. Buffing the weak is always better in my opinion.

[shigu.exe]

1 hour ago, arepana said:

The problem is that the changes you propose (Maxwell not being able to read her books) also lead to her being a magic dealer/swap character. In the scenario where Maxwell gets nerfed, if for some reason I want to have 400 bananas I'll swap to wicker, read her books, collect with a scythe and a lazy forager, then I put them in salt boxes or bearger bins, where they'll basically last forever and swap to an actual fun character and never play as wicker again, or unless I want more bananas.

She will still be a swap character, because at her very core she is a character that sets up farms or traps, once you've used the farms a couple of times you have no reason to keep playing wicker, and once you've set up the trap you can reuse it almost as many times as you want.

Sometimes I wish the Celestial Portal didn't exist... Or at least that the effective cost of switching characters was higher, because it felt more interesting when character choice was impactful and you couldn't just switch all the time. I do think character switching should exist, but it shouldn't be as low commitment to prevent mundane swapping or farming starting items.

Or maybe it's a matter of, despite bringing a lot of utility, some character's moment-to-moment gameplay just doesn't have a lot to it.

I agree with you that:

• Buffs are generally preferable over nerfs
• Removing Maxwell's ability to read Wickerbottom's Books would not completely cease her being a swap character
• Some of her books can be ignored because there are other non-exclusive ways to reach the same result
• Moon book is indeed just goated.

I do think it's a bit reductive to say that mass fishing is the only unique thing she can do, or at least there are plenty of things that can be done in another way but that she does more effectively, especially in a group setting. Some examples:

• Everyone could deal with rain the normal way, or Wickerbottom could simply toggle it off, saving the group the trouble.
• It's possible to gather a ton of resources without Wickerbottom, but she can immensely speed up the process.
• Sleepytime Stories is basically just the Pan Flute, but it's a much more cost-effective solution.
• Using Lux Aeterna to light up the base is admittedly pretty unnecessary, but it's nice!

She's a great support character in that regard, so while maybe she doesn't have a ton of wholly unique applications (because this is an open-ended game and there are multiple ways to accomplish a given task), she is still very good at what she does.

1 hour ago, arepana said:

I'm always going to be of the opinion that nerfing Maxwell wont make wicker a better character or not a swap character

You're right that nerfing Maxwell won't make Wicker a better character, because she's already a good character, she just gets overshadowed. I get that you don't want to lose Maxwell reading her books, and I do, so maybe we can agree to disagree on that one. I do like the idea of special effects for reading books, though. Maybe not those particular examples, but you were probably just spitballing so I won't scrutinize.

Buffs are desirable in the sense that they allow more options/strategies to be effective, enabling creative expression. Nerfs might not be what mains of a character want to receive, but they're necessary to keep the game's balance in check and ensure that one strategy does not overshadow others, ultimately preserving the game's fun. I know game balance in a cooperative survival craft isn't as important as in, say, a competitive fighting game, but the game wouldn't be very fun at all if Wilson had god mode and could one-shot everything. Buffs aren't innately good, just as nerfs aren't innately bad, they're both just means to an end that the designer is trying to achieve.

[00petar00]

I really like the idea of "swap" characters, I want to be able to swap and gain benefits because as a mostly solo player it is the only way I can gain something from characters I don't play.

The only issue I have is that Maxwell can completely make Wickerbottom pointless, most other characters that are considered swap characters like Winona when she has teleports, other perks like revival and being able to move her structures is something unique to her so its not the same Wicker when every ability she has Maxwell can use.

The biggest change is that catapults were nerfed for everyone else now that we need to activate them one by one and I wish this wasn't the case but here we are as many people for some reason are against you being able to benefit from swapping characters.

It is very easy to demolish everything game throws at you the more players you have so it is very hard for me to understand why character swapping is bad when you can get all the benefits without even having to swap by having more players on the server.

[crushcircuit]

9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I really like the idea of "swap" characters, I want to be able to swap and gain benefits because as a mostly solo player it is the only way I can gain something from characters I don't play.

The only issue I have is that Maxwell can completely make Wickerbottom pointless, most other characters that are considered swap characters like Winona when she has teleports, other perks like revival and being able to move her structures is something unique to her so its not the same Wicker when every ability she has Maxwell can use.

The biggest change is that catapults were nerfed for everyone else now that we need to activate them one by one and I wish this wasn't the case but here we are as many people for some reason are against you being able to benefit from swapping characters.

It is very easy to demolish everything game throws at you the more players you have so it is very hard for me to understand why character swapping is bad when you can get all the benefits without even having to swap by having more players on the server.

i agree that switching to characters for their benefits should not be a bad thing. its also always going to be a decision that people go out of their way to make, and from my experiences at the least, it's almost always decisions made by solo players.

but the issue isnt that you can swap to them and utilize their abilities, that in itself is fine, but it's that sometimes certain characters dont offer any unique options of their own that can't just be used by others just as effectively (like you said with wickerbottom). this is also still an issue with warly as well, since if you just sit down and make his stuff for a little while, there's not much that pushes you to continue playing him (other than just liking him) because the only things truly unique to him as a character are his downsides.

i will be extremely sad if they continue to try and fix this in a similar way as they did with Winona, where they just make it so that wickerbottom is just a bit better at using her books, or warly has dishes that only he can eat (or god forbid dishes locked behind his skill tree...) when they could be given more to them to make them just more enjoyable to play

[Nikki Darks]

I honestly think that "swap" characters can easily be fixed by making them benefit more from their items than others.

Wicker's books have stronger effects when she uses them, Warly buffs are stronger on him, etc, etc.

[Dingle]

4 hours ago, Nikki Darks said:

I honestly think that "swap" characters can easily be fixed by making them benefit more from their items than others.

Wicker's books have stronger effects when she uses them, Warly buffs are stronger on him, etc, etc.

I always thought Warly should have got way more duration from his own food buffs.

[Radicaljoe]

7 hours ago, Nikki Darks said:

I honestly think that "swap" characters can easily be fixed by making them benefit more from their items than others.

Wicker's books have stronger effects when she uses them, Warly buffs are stronger on him, etc, etc.

I also like this idea, this is kinda how klei went about her tree. Winona herself can use the catapults waaay better than any other survivor, and everyone else can still benefit, just less without Winona. (They also nerfed em a bit for everyone else so little mixed bag there)

[shigu.exe]

5 hours ago, Dingle said:

I always thought Warly should have got way more duration from his own food buffs.

I like this idea, maybe they could frame it as him savouring the foods he eats and thus getting more out of them (it makes perfect sense if you don't think about it too hard).

[00petar00]

13 hours ago, crushcircuit said:

i agree that switching to characters for their benefits should not be a bad thing. its also always going to be a decision that people go out of their way to make, and from my experiences at the least, it's almost always decisions made by solo players.

but the issue isnt that you can swap to them and utilize their abilities, that in itself is fine, but it's that sometimes certain characters dont offer any unique options of their own that can't just be used by others just as effectively (like you said with wickerbottom). this is also still an issue with warly as well, since if you just sit down and make his stuff for a little while, there's not much that pushes you to continue playing him (other than just liking him) because the only things truly unique to him as a character are his downsides.

I don't think you can convince me that this is bad. I think that it makes even more sense to swap as a solo player because developers have put so much effort into refreshes and skill trees, I don't think it would be beneficial for the game If it was limited even more compared to how it currently is.

The only reason it bothers me that Maxwell can use Wicker's books is because that is the only reason to play her and she used to be my main for so many years but If all characters were like that it would be amazing because klei keeps focusing on them and there have been so many updates that I really didn't care about since I don't play most characters.

Why should you need to be forced to play a specific character for the benefits you get? This would've been fine If we didn't get any refreshes and skill trees but now so many players would prefer to see updates that everyone can access but we get skill trees.

13 hours ago, crushcircuit said:

i will be extremely sad if they continue to try and fix this in a similar way as they did with Winona, where they just make it so that wickerbottom is just a bit better at using her books, or warly has dishes that only he can eat (or god forbid dishes locked behind his skill tree...) when they could be given more to them to make them just more enjoyable to play

Winona was a very unique case and I don't agree with the decision they made so that we need to activate every single catapult, it basically makes it much worse to use catapults compared to before her skill tree.

The issue is that it is very hard to make Wickerbottom by making her better at using books since you can just ignore sanity with bone helm, the only way to do this and it still wouldn't matter that much for Maxwell players is by making her benefit more from the books which to me is the correct way to go about this. 

Warly is a challenge character like Wes so I don't really think it matters that much, food is always going to be food and it would be a really bad decision of klei If they decide to limit his recipes.

[Edible Coal]

I think another key aspect of swapping characters is that you lose practically nothing while gaining everything from the swap.
like wolfgang for example, you lose access to 2x power and work efficient if u swap him to other character, 

but for someone like warly, theres really nothing you lose from swapping him to other after u make his dishes

3 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

 

Warly is a challenge character like Wes 

what, warly is not intented as a challenge character

[crushcircuit]

9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't think you can convince me that this is bad. I think that it makes even more sense to swap as a solo player because developers have put so much effort into refreshes and skill trees, I don't think it would be beneficial for the game If it was limited even more compared to how it currently is.

i'm not saying its a bad thing that you can swap characters, i attempted to emphasize that but perhaps i wasn't clear enough - i think the celestial portal is fine the way it is. i just don't think the game should be balanced around how solo players tend to play, as klei has had a recent streak of doing when approaching skill trees. i understand that it can be frustrating playing solo, but you are going out of your way to play Don't Starve Together in a way that was not initially intended. of course people can benefit from having multiple players on a server. that's how Don't Starve Together is designed - to play together.

i consider solo play as a self-imposed challenge for a reason.

9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

The only reason it bothers me that Maxwell can use Wicker's books is because that is the only reason to play her and she used to be my main for so many years but If all characters were like that it would be amazing because klei keeps focusing on them and there have been so many updates that I really didn't care about since I don't play most characters.

Why should you need to be forced to play a specific character for the benefits you get? This would've been fine If we didn't get any refreshes and skill trees but now so many players would prefer to see updates that everyone can access but we get skill trees.

i'm confused - do you not think the characters should be unique? they're all their own people, they're going to have their own unique perks. they aren't just there to like, look pretty, they have their own backgrounds and personalities and things. i do understand the frustration with so many character-focused updates - i was also hoping they would focus more on general updates after the reworks were done but that's just how it is i suppose - but "the characters should be a blank slate that can just do anything" (as i've parsed this statement, please do correct me if i'm completely misunderstanding you here!) is not really a good take.

the characters are unique because they're different people. you can think of it as "classes" in other games maybe? i'm not sure what else to say there, that's just the way it is

9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Winona was a very unique case and I don't agree with the decision they made so that we need to activate every single catapult, it basically makes it much worse to use catapults compared to before her skill tree.

i agree

9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Warly is a challenge character like Wes so I don't really think it matters that much, food is always going to be food and it would be a really bad decision of klei If they decide to limit his recipes.

the fact that you think warly was supposed to be a challenge character in the same vein as wes is evidence that his current design is flawed

(i will note that i cannot comment on the specifics of what they could do with wickerbottom because i've never played as her, so that's not really my wheelhouse)

[shigu.exe]

1 hour ago, crushcircuit said:

i just don't think the game should be balanced around how solo players tend to play, as klei has had a recent streak of doing when approaching skill trees. i understand that it can be frustrating playing solo, but you are going out of your way to play Don't Starve Together in a way that was not initially intended. of course people can benefit from having multiple players on a server. that's how Don't Starve Together is designed - to play together.

This. Of course it's going to feel limited, in solo you are one player and you can only be one survivor at a time, that's just kind of how it is.

[Mysterious box]

11 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't think you can convince me that this is bad. I think that it makes even more sense to swap as a solo player because developers have put so much effort into refreshes and skill trees, I don't think it would be beneficial for the game If it was limited even more compared to how it currently is.

The only reason it bothers me that Maxwell can use Wicker's books is because that is the only reason to play her and she used to be my main for so many years but If all characters were like that it would be amazing because klei keeps focusing on them and there have been so many updates that I really didn't care about since I don't play most characters.

Why should you need to be forced to play a specific character for the benefits you get? This would've been fine If we didn't get any refreshes and skill trees but now so many players would prefer to see updates that everyone can access but we get skill trees.

Winona was a very unique case and I don't agree with the decision they made so that we need to activate every single catapult, it basically makes it much worse to use catapults compared to before her skill tree.

The issue is that it is very hard to make Wickerbottom by making her better at using books since you can just ignore sanity with bone helm, the only way to do this and it still wouldn't matter that much for Maxwell players is by making her benefit more from the books which to me is the correct way to go about this. 

Warly is a challenge character like Wes so I don't really think it matters that much, food is always going to be food and it would be a really bad decision of klei If they decide to limit his recipes.

While some may disagree with the solution reached with her Winona, Warly, and Wickerbottom suffer from the exact same issue there's nothing really unique about it. People didn't play Winona because once you made her catapults and spotlights she just had filler perks there was nothing gained for staying as her just like Wickerbottom and Warly for example it could even be argued that since one specific character is required to replace Wickerbottom her case isn't as bad as Warly's is and Winona's was where anyone in the cast could fill their shoes.

[Dingle]

51 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

While some may disagree with the solution reached with her Winona, Warly, and Wickerbottom suffer from the exact same issue there's nothing really unique about it. People didn't play Winona because once you made her catapults and spotlights she just had filler perks there was nothing gained for staying as her just like Wickerbottom and Warly for example it could even be argued that since one specific character is required to replace Wickerbottom her case isn't as bad as Warly's is and Winona's was where anyone in the cast could fill their shoes.

Wicker is worse than Warly due to bookcases. Make what you need as her, switch to Maxwell, never look back.

At least with Warly, the food gets eaten eventually. With Wicker, Maxwell can read the books forever.