Swap Characters & Such

[viblym]

"Swap Characters" are a common nickname used for certain characters in Don't Starve so I thought I'd make a post detailing what "Swap Character" actually means, why some characters are, and why some character's aren't swap characters, my thoughts on how to avoid making a Swap Character, and various feedback for characters.

Contrary to popular belief, a swap character is not just a character people swap to. A swap character is typically (or at least was Originally) defined as a character who has little to no "Character Based Incentives", but has a variety of "Item Based Incentives". A Character Based incentive is a perk, mechanic, function, buff, or whatever, that makes a character appealing, some character based incentives I can mention as example that are easily recognizable that draw people to play that character would be Wigfrid's Sanity and Health regeneration on hit, Wormwood's Bloom mechanic, sanity control, and hunger interactions, Wortox's souls and all of their abilities as a whole. You can absolutely make up more character based incentives in your mind, basically: anything a character has that is not a structure, tool, weapon, armor, or clothing piece.

A Item Based Incentive IS a structure, tool, weapon, armor, or clothing piece that is exclusive to that character, it can get a bit more lenient on the definition when it comes to certain objects (Like Wickerbottom books but I'll get to that later). Item Based Incentives are typically objects that only a specific character can craft, things like Winona's Catapults, Wormwood's Bramble Husk, Wigfrid's Battle Spear and Helmet, etc. Now, something you'll note is that both Wigfrid and Wormwood are mentioned as having Character and item based incentives, but note that despite being able to share their character specific items, you don't see people referring to Wigfrid and Wormwood as "Swap characters" for that. Why? Because they have those Character Based Incentives, what Wigfrid and Wormwood are as characters are not devalued by their items, there are still plenty of stronger reasons for you to want to pick these characters that are not just those items, they have other interactions that make them fun to play and engage with. Removing Wigfrid's battle spear or removing Wormwood's bramble husk would not destroy them as a character- sure they'd be missing their special items, but they'd still be playable, and they'd still be good.

Now on the opposite end of things, let's say I have Winona. Winona is THE definitive swap character, while some of the fire has been quelled with her skill tree, Winona is not as swappable as she used to be, but she hasn't exactly gotten better. Here's a little graphic I made last week:



This graphic was made moreso as a criticism of Winona's skill tree as a whole, but I feel like it has decent importance in the discussion of swap characters, so I am including it. Winona's character based incentives were near non-existant, with 1 free hit from darkness and fast crafting. Fast crafting was counteracted with a hunger based downside as well. Both of these functioned more as a slight convenience than a full fledged incentive to play the character. Meanwhile Winona's Item Based Incentives were much more significant, with her catapults having utility in farms as well as some of the more difficult-to-solo bosses, notably Bee Queen. Meaning many players would swap to Winona to reap the benefits of her catapults, without actually remaining as her. It's a common mistake for members of the community to see the usage of catapults as an issue, and Klei has fallen into this mentality as well. Winona's skill tree puts a heavy focus on her being the most effective user of her character specific items as an attempt to resolve this issue, without removing methods invovling her structures players have used before. Winona at this point is the most effective at utilizing any of her structures. And players graciously enjoy the new completely character locked items such as the Portasol for its utility. But despite the beneficial impact that these might have on Winona's structures, Winona herself remains unengaging to play. Outside of specific instances where you need a leg up in transportation with the Portasol or the Catapults in combat, her skill tree falls to the backburner of QoL. It's just nice. You have a few nice things to you. You have some tricks up your sleeve but nothing to show otherwise. Winona did not get better. I have been playing Winona with her skill tree and while I like the additions, I can hardly say anyone actively dislikes them, it feels like none of them gave meat to her gameplay. I know a large chunk of critiques about Winona's skill tree are that the Portasol and Telebrella (as well as the WINBOTS) should have been available to everyone, instead of arbitrarily locked behind playing Winona. Because after all, a character can't be a swap character if you can't use the items you swapped to them to craft, right? Well. It doesn't fix the character Once you place spotlights, or an enlightened shard gemerator, or a winbot, other characters can use all of those things still, you can have infinite spotlights without Winona, you can have Winbots without Winona (so long as you don't accidentally pick them up, then you'll have to swap back to her to place it back down. At least she's not a swap character right! right?)

So then it comes to other characters, like Wortox and his Knabsack. Would letting other characters use the knabsack as a collection tool make Wortox with his current skill tree a "Swap character"? Absolutely not. Wortox is still a blast of a character on his own, you have a variety of fun character-based-incentives at your disposal that give you a vastly different outlook on how you interact with the game. If people only played Wortox to get his Knabsack, then we would have an issue, but people play Wortox because they like his character, not just because they like his items. So whatever, let other characters use the knabsack as a collection tool but not a weapon, it's not going to hurt Wortox, it's not going to take away from Wortox.

Then we have Wickerbottom, who I feel so bad for as a character. Wickerbottom's books are pretty interesting and for me they kind of fall into this strange area mixed between item based and character based incentive, I think truly in my heart that despite being an item that you cast, that the books should have been a character based incentive, but, since Maxwell can read her books, it actually sort of redefines them as a item based incentive. Weird right? Without her books Wickerbottom has genuinely 0 character based incentives. Sure it's tempting to say that not being able to be put to sleep is an upside but most of the time it just serves to detriment you, Wickerbottom's only "upside" functions more like a downside. Sure I can't get attacked by Grazers or whatever but I'll be drowsy for th next 5 days, sure I can not be put to sleep by Bearger during Winter and Spring but realistically who is that helping? Even if you would want to fight Bearger during that time you'd be slowed immensely, and I don't see "You can fight Bearger during the hibernation seasons just a little bit better than others can with a mushy cake" isn't going to ever be a reason to play a character, not for me, not for basically anyone, unless they have some obtuse challenge they want to achieve. It doesn't help during the Celestial Champion fight either, since being slowed during that fight is going to get you killed more than anything else, especially during the 3rd phase of the boss fight, if you get stuck inside the Gestalt ring attack being put to sleep is your saving grave since the Greater Gestalts wont hit you, but for Wickerbottom if you get stuck in that you're done for.

Besides all that character perk Wickerbottom complaining, Maxwell being able to read Wickerbottom's books is about as hated as it is enjoyed. I've had this discussion with others many times and I hardly get a good reason for it besides "Don't nerf Maxwell!" and "Klei isn't going to do it because they wont nerf characters" and it's bewildering to me, it actively detracts from Wickerbottom as a character, Maxwell being able to read her books is an Archaic feature from when the distinction between characters was so minuscule who you picked hardly made a difference. Every discussion about Wickerbottom always turns into a discussion about Maxwell, which saddens me. People are beyond desperate to keep in Maxwell being able to read her books because "it's fun for Maxwell" and that removing it would remove "Maxwell's fun" as if he isn't already powerful and entertaining on his own. I think the feature should be removed entirely- or at least allow Maxwell to read books to the same extent that Wurt does, where it will use durability and alter his sanity, with no actual affect. But the desire to keep this gut-punch of a perk in game often brings up suggestions like "Make it so Wickerbottom's books don't restore durability" "make it so other players cannot open the bookcase" "make it so Maxwell uses more durability when he reads them" "Make Wickerbottom better at reading them", most of those coming as a nerf and detriment to Wickerbottom herself, and the others not even negating the problem, just adding a slight additional "grind" to get resources before you swap. It does not address the issue at hand nor does it remedy Wickerbottom's issues. I do believe Klei will try to go for a "Wickerbottom is better at reading her own books" with her skill tree, which I completely fear, especially after seeing what happened with Winona's skill tree to make her "better at using her own structures". Wickerbottom's skill tree should not be built around making her stronger than Maxwell at utilizing her own character perks.

Winona deserves to be more interesting, Wickerbottom deserves to be more interesting, Warly deserves to be more interesting, I trust in Klei to deliver good content, but hearing outright that Winona's skill tree was designed to avoid making her a "swap character", and seeing how her skill tree turned out has left me weary for the future of other swap characters, and how they will be treated when they finally get a chance to be unique.

[Debruh]

Personally, I'm pretty fine with characters having no exclusive items. But said item needs to be a branch of the character not the whole trunk.

Even with the new skill tree, Winona still kinda is a swap character. Characters can't used her new stuff, but can use her og kit??

And just change the Maxwell can read Wicker's books thing. At the very least make it so that a Wicker needs to exist in the world. 

Why would a master of dark arts not be able to use her books? Maybe cause her handwriting is bad or something lol.

Even with the whole master of the dark arts thing, Maxwell is obviously a shadow magician. Wick seems not fond of shadow magic and some of her magic is pretty lunar-y in nature. Why would Maxy be able to use that??

[Echsrick]

in a way every character is a swap character, if you want to switch characters...thats on you, if you go wolfgang just to fight things, and wolfgang sure is not an item based character besides the mighty maker and dumbells wich only he can use, makes him a swap character

[crushcircuit]

8 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

in a way every character is a swap character, if you want to switch characters...thats on you, if you go wolfgang just to fight things, and wolfgang sure is not an item based character besides the mighty maker and dumbells wich only he can use, makes him a swap character

wanting to switch to a character to utilize their unique perks is different from the term/concept "swap character", the post details what exactly the term "Swap Character" means!

the existence of the celestial portal does not make every character a "Swap Character".

[lowercase skye]

My issue with the concept of "swap characters" is just that any attempt to "fix" them is always going to be anti-teamwork as hell. Wanda is probably my least favorite character in the game because almost EVERYTHING she does is entirely selfish: she has her watch that only heals her, her watch that lets her teleport a bit, her watch that lets her teleport a lot, and her special weapon. In the hands of other players, these do nothing! All she has that contributes in a team setting is her fancier life giving amulet watch, and the ability to teleport other players at the cost of 1 purple gem. Other than that, if the Wanda isn't around at the exact moment you want her to be, all of her items and infrastructure she's set up are just entirely useless. Meanwhile I can still use Battle Helms and Spears even if Wigfrid isn't around, I can still use Willow's lighter and Bernie, I can still use those catapults that Winona set up in the base for hound attacks, I can still sleep in Walter's tent, I can still wear Wormwood's bramble husk, etc. If Wanda isn't around, all I can do is haunt her second chance watch.

[TizianOwO]

45 minutes ago, Debruh said:

And just change the Maxwell can read Wicker's books thing. At the very least make it so that a Wicker needs to exist in the world. 

Why would a master of dark arts not be able to use her books? Maybe cause her handwriting is bad or something lol.

Even with the whole master of the dark arts thing, Maxwell is obviously a shadow magician. Wick seems not fond of shadow magic and some of her magic is pretty lunar-y in nature. Why would Maxy be able to use that??

I'm a Maxwell main and I'd definitely have no issue with them stripping this out of his kit.

There really is no good reason for one character to be able to use the single main draw of playing another character, even with the negligible sanity "downside"

I would be quite annoyed if Wigfrid or something could randomly use the Codex Umbra with effectively no downside, I don't think lore is a good enough reasoning for one character to somewhat invalidate another like that.

[crushcircuit]

14 minutes ago, lowercase skye said:

My issue with the concept of "swap characters" is just that any attempt to "fix" them is always going to be anti-teamwork as hell.

i do think it would be more worthwhile for them explore giving characters like winona, warly, and wickerbottom actual character perks outside of their crafts, rather than arbitrarily locking things behind characters (like viblym said originally - not to sound like i just came up with that LOL). i don't think their current attempts to "fix" the "Swap Character" problem is actually effective in any way more than it's just getting annoying for cooperation.

with the current skill trees, why should wortox have to go out of his way to go on cleanup duty w/ knabsack instead of being able to just give it to other players? why should decisions that solo players make be detrimental to people who actually play the game together? the whole thing is just odd to me. i already thought it was annoying that winona cant teleport other players with her, that wigfrid can't share her shield, but what they're locking out of co-op is starting to get a little absurd.

[Pruinae]

Great explanation of what a swap character is.

Winona is in a great spot IMO, the ones I play with walk around with a shadow chester filled with her structures looking like a busy business woman. Late game being able to clear tress (and Tree Guards) with Enlightened Strike is great, and having a teleport network is amazing (Wanda's can be more convenient to set up and use, but the catapults more than make up for that). Sure, you can swap out of her and use basically everything except the catapults and telebrella, but at that point why would you?

For me, Wickerbottom, Wilson, and Warly are the swap characters. Wicker because Max pushes her down a flight of stairs and takes everything from her; Wilson due to him having nothing that I find interesting going on for him, I have a skin for him just to look at it for the time it takes to transmute whatever I want until he goes back into the portal lol; And Warly in great part because bundling wrap and bearger bin exist (not that I want them removed or anything, just give him non-swappable characteristics).

12 hours ago, viblym said:

Then we have Wickerbottom, who I feel so bad for as a character. Wickerbottom's books are pretty interesting and for me they kind of fall into this strange area mixed between item based and character based incentive, I think truly in my heart that despite being an item that you cast, that the books should have been a character based incentive, but, since Maxwell can read her books, it actually sort of redefines them as a item based incentive.

I do believe Klei will try to go for a "Wickerbottom is better at reading her own books" with her skill tree, which I completely fear, especially after seeing what happened with Winona's skill tree to make her "better at using her own structures". Wickerbottom's skill tree should not be built around making her stronger than Maxwell at utilizing her own character perks.

I also fear the "Wickerbottom is better at reading her own books" route, while I wouldn't mind at all if they just stopped Maxwell from being able to use her books, I made a skill tree concept a while back that I think would be a good path to take. It's about giving her books new functionality, through spells exclusive to her; that I believe would provide more engaging gameplay aspects.

I LOOOOVE Wickerbottom pls make her a character instead of Maxwell's minion #7

[aidancode]

As somebody who mostly plays the game in multiplayer, characters being able to interact with each others' perks is extremely important to make the team dynamic actually feel like more of a team. If that leads to more characters being "swap characters", so be it. There's literally no reason you have to swap characters. If you don't like the system, don't engage with it. I know that argument is annoying to hear in situations where the game actively encourages you to use it, but the game doesn't encourage you at all to swap characters. Every character can do anything they need to.

[viblym]

39 minutes ago, Pruinae said:

Great explanation of what a swap character is.

Winona is in a great spot IMO, the ones I play with walk around with a shadow chester filled with her structures looking like a busy business woman. Late game being able to clear tress (and Tree Guards) with Enlightened Strike is great, and having a teleport network is amazing (Wanda's can be more convenient to set up and use, but the catapults more than make up for that). Sure, you can swap out of her and use basically everything except the catapults and telebrella, but at that point why would you?

For me, Wickerbottom, Wilson, and Warly are the swap characters. Wicker because Max pushes her down a flight of stairs and takes everything from her; Wilson due to him having nothing that I find interesting going on for him, I have a skin for him just to look at it for the time it takes to transmute whatever I want until he goes back into the portal lol; And Warly in great part because bundling wrap and bearger bin exist (not that I want them removed or anything, just give him non-swappable characteristics).

I also fear the "Wickerbottom is better at reading her own books" route, while I wouldn't mind at all if they just stopped Maxwell from being able to use her books, I made a skill tree concept a while back that I think would be a good path to take. It's about giving her books new functionality, through spells exclusive to her; that I believe would provide more engaging gameplay aspects.

I LOOOOVE Wickerbottom pls make her a character instead of Maxwell's minion #7

That entire WIckerbottom skill tree concept was a FASCINATING read and I love all the work and thought put into it, I love the perks that grant Wickerbottom specialization WITHOUT locking her to one or two unique gimmicks, I was scrutinous about the lureplant perks reading through it, as you'd only benefit from it if you utilized lureplant farms, but seeing all the other perks and things there's so much there that even if she had 1 or 2 branches that'd only be applicable to one style of gameplay, that there's so much variety in all of it you'd still have other perks that are just as good. This is what I want more out of with skill trees, a variety of different specializations players can take that make their way of playing a character unique to them (or anyone that picks the same perks as them, lol). I'm a little sad that the post is archived because I'd absolutely be gushing in the comments section over it, just know you have the Viblym seal of approval with that one.

[Debruh]

43 minutes ago, aidancode said:

As somebody who mostly plays the game in multiplayer, characters being able to interact with each others' perks is extremely important to make the team dynamic actually feel like more of a team. If that leads to more characters being "swap characters", so be it. There's literally no reason you have to swap characters. If you don't like the system, don't engage with it. I know that argument is annoying to hear in situations where the game actively encourages you to use it, but the game doesn't encourage you at all to swap characters. Every character can do anything they need to.

Some perks? Yeah. All perks? Nah. Some perks being exclusive to characters is still pretty necessary to make teamwork more than your teammate crafting a bunch of helmets/whatever. Actually integrate teamwork and communication. If there's a Wendy on the team, you're probably gonna ask her if you want to clear an area of a bunch spiders. But if she could just give ya Abby's flower, and you do it all yourself. Sure, there's a little teamwork in her giving you the flower, but beyond that not really.

[Beetrice]

4 hours ago, lowercase skye said:

My issue with the concept of "swap characters" is just that any attempt to "fix" them is always going to be anti-teamwork as hell. Wanda is probably my least favorite character in the game because almost EVERYTHING she does is entirely selfish: she has her watch that only heals her, her watch that lets her teleport a bit, her watch that lets her teleport a lot, and her special weapon. In the hands of other players, these do nothing! All she has that contributes in a team setting is her fancier life giving amulet watch, and the ability to teleport other players at the cost of 1 purple gem. Other than that, if the Wanda isn't around at the exact moment you want her to be, all of her items and infrastructure she's set up are just entirely useless. Meanwhile I can still use Battle Helms and Spears even if Wigfrid isn't around, I can still use Willow's lighter and Bernie, I can still use those catapults that Winona set up in the base for hound attacks, I can still sleep in Walter's tent, I can still wear Wormwood's bramble husk, etc. If Wanda isn't around, all I can do is haunt her second chance watch.

Damn... Being able to use Ageless Watches as other survivors would make her really desirable in team settings, but maybe it's for the better that only she can use them, since that would potentially get too powerful.

[Vinja]

5 hours ago, Debruh said:

Personally, I'm pretty fine with characters having no exclusive items. But said item needs to be a branch of the character not the whole trunk.

Even with the new skill tree, Winona still kinda is a swap character. Characters can't used her new stuff, but can use her og kit??

And just change the Maxwell can read Wicker's books thing. At the very least make it so that a Wicker needs to exist in the world. 

Why would a master of dark arts not be able to use her books? Maybe cause her handwriting is bad or something lol.

Even with the whole master of the dark arts thing, Maxwell is obviously a shadow magician. Wick seems not fond of shadow magic and some of her magic is pretty lunar-y in nature. Why would Maxy be able to use that??

It makes sense lorewise. He also loses much more sanity than her when reading them which can be a problem to some people. He regenerates sanity but it's not insanely fast, and if you read a book more than like 2 times you'll start spawning extra nightmare creatures. 

I think people need to quit taking everything so seriously. It's not a competitive game. You're having fun with friends. Working together and specific characters having unique synergies is part of what makes the game fun.

Winona has it far worse than wicker, anyone can use Winonas stuff and get the exact same benefit she does minus some dps after the skill tree but it just doesn't make sense for her to be only one that knows how to flip an on switch. And designing it that way goes against the team aspect of the game. I think she deserves more character specific perks and whatnot to make her unique and fun, same with wicker, (and I don't think winonas skiltree got enough of that but that's another discussion) but there's nothing wrong with their crafts benefiting the team as a whole rather than only themselves.

My sister mains wicker and she likes when she doesn't have to run all the way back to base to read a book because a Maxwell thats already there can read it. It's not a bad thing.

[shigu.exe]

This is a great analysis, and I wholeheartedly agree. I genuinely cannot fathom how people look at Maxwell reading Wicker's books as anything other than irreconcilably unhealthy for the game, fun and powerful as it may be.

A hypothetical, imagine a scenario in which, while uncraftable by him, the Codex Umbra could be utilized by, say... Wilson. There would be no reason to play Maxwell anymore at all once the player crafts his items! Wilson would just be a better Maxwell for the most part, less fragile and has some utility of his own with his beard.

This is basically what Maxwell is to Wickerbottom, but to an even larger degree. There is zero incentive to remain as the Librarian aside from crafting more books. Klei did attempt to make Maxwell worse at using her books with the 2.5x sanity modifier, but insanity is largely a non-issue to anyone who knows what they're doing, and there are ways to get around it, like reading from the Lunar island or wearing a Bone Helm. Essentially, Maxwell gets to have the utility of two characters in one. He doesn't need Wickerbottom's books, he already has his own toolkit, and a good one at that. It's less about nerfing Maxwell and more about rectifying the complete overshadowing of another character in the game.

[Steorra]

Wickerbottom is still better than Maxwell when you sailing.

[Primalflower]

43 minutes ago, shigu.exe said:

Klei did attempt to make Maxwell worse at using her books with the 2.5x sanity modifier

keep in mind that he also spawns 2 shadow creatures whenever you read at low enough sanity, instead of one. This could prove useful for nightmare fuel, and doesn't change anything about bone helm/lunar island usage, but I think it's worth noting that almost any read that isn't full sanity will have maxwell potentially immediately aggroing 2 terrorbeaks, which is a decent bit of a skill check for most people.

This complication means that maxwell can only really make use of books that are cogs in the wheel of a larger, automated setup. There is more to wickerbottom than those things, though, maxwell cannot comfortably make use of books that wickerbottom uses to improve her quality of life on a day to day basis, think tempering temperatures, lux aeterna, apicultural notes, the horticultures, lunar grimoire, and he has a lot less flexibility with lesser used books like everything encyclopedia, pyrokinetics, etc.

That being said, as someone who plays wickerbottom a ton of the time and maxwell none of the time, I don't disagree with you that maxwell being able to read wickerbottom's books is unhealthy for the game,I think that it's a flavor perk that got way out of hand and at the later stages of the game (where wickerbottom really gets her minutes in for most people, seemingly) is when the temptation is especially fierce. I really wish there was a way to have one's cake and eat it too, because i totally agree with skye in the sense that characters in the position wanda is in right now are pretty lame. I don't think wickerbottom should be a character that you get absolutely none of the benefits of whenever she dips for a play session.

[shigu.exe]

6 hours ago, lowercase skye said:

My issue with the concept of "swap characters" is just that any attempt to "fix" them is always going to be anti-teamwork as hell.

It doesn't really have to be anti-teamwork to fix a swap character, they've just been going about it from the wrong angle. Winona's Skill Tree was a great example of how not to go about rectifying a swap character. Winona needed to be the best user of Catapults, and part of the way they accomplished that was by... making using them worse for other characters? Now you have to manually turn on each one unless you're playing as Winona and have the remote. It's not a big deal but it just seems like the wrong approach, and it isn't really addressing the root issue of Winona lacking character-based incentives to make continuing to play as her worthwhile.

Notice how the three characters with a reputation for being swap characters (Winona, Wickerbottom, and Warly) are ones where the majority of their kit is comprised of the items or structures they create, and where there exist means to circumvent the 'character exclusivity' of their perks, like bundle wrapping a bunch of Warly's foods. There isn't much incentive to be them.

Maxwell is a character whose kit is almost completely comprised of structures and items, but he isn't considered a swap character. Why is that? He can passively benefit the team with Magician's Chests, but he is the only one who can take advantage of the Codex Umbra, essentially making it function as a character-based incentive despite being an item. His balance is kept in check by the fact that his tools are his and his alone. Note that this does not make Maxwell "selfish", his tools benefit others even though he's the only one that can use them.

Wickerbottom is pretty easy to fix, just remove the ability for Maxwell to read her books. Her books are meant to be her character incentives, but in not being completely locked to her they become item incentives and there is no longer any real reason to be her besides to craft books.
 
Winona and Warly are a bit more complicated to fix. I think people can agree that they definitely need something to disincentivize swaps, but it's hard to say what. I will say that I don't think that it should come at the cost of making their existing item-based incentives worse (i.e. locking down their existing tools). They aren't exactly powerhouses, so I think it's fine for them to keep their existing perks as things they can share with the team, while giving them new tools that motivate people to stick with them.

[reddocc]

I'm planning to use wortox and Wendy combined with bundling Warps to store healing in the form of wortox souls and Wendy's wreath

[Primalflower]

19 minutes ago, shigu.exe said:

Winona's Skill Tree was a great example of how not to go about rectifying a swap character. Winona needed to be the best user of Catapults, and part of the way they accomplished that was by... making using them worse for other characters? Now you have to manually turn on each one unless you're playing as Winona and have the remote. It's not a big deal but it just seems like the wrong approach, and it isn't really addressing the root issue of Winona lacking character-based incentives to make continuing to play as her worthwhile.

wait, but is this really true? Winona is the only one who can use her telebrella (/wormhole usage) which is far and away one of the best methods of transportation, this alone combined with her portable structures turns her into an extremely useful character that can do useful things only as her while still maintaining a pretty decent benefit on the world when shes absent

[viblym]

8 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

wait, but is this really true? Winona is the only one who can use her telebrella (/wormhole usage) which is far and away one of the best methods of transportation, this alone combined with her portable structures turns her into an extremely useful character that can do useful things only as her while still maintaining a pretty decent benefit on the world when shes absent

yeah if you read my post you'd understand why that's not the case?

I feel like the comments are loosing the plot quite a bit here

[Primalflower]

54 minutes ago, viblym said:

yeah if you read my post you'd understand why that's not the case?

oh. I thought you were trolling, because you seem to have before. no offense. sorry

to engage with you properly, I must say I disagree with the very base assessment of your post. I think you are Wrong and the dichotomy you place between "item based incentive" and intrinsic incentive is faulty. I think that an Item based incentive to play only loses its meaning when more compelling options enter the picture that outclass the preceding ones. For winona, there is simply no better method of transporation than the telebrella once the network has been set up, and the uses for travelling faster are effectively infinite, because this aspect is tied so deeply into the game. The winbot, although seemingly replaceable with a lazy forager, has the strong, strong benefit of being able to be used alongside other winbots, placing it squarely in first in the pick-up-items game when spammed. You may say that others can use it when it's already deployed, but much like what I have already stated about wickerbottom's books, no character can use the winbot on the go for any mass pickup scenario that may occur without it being part of a larger setup. The only thing that compares to the versatility and strength of winona with multiple winbots is maxwell, which comes in the form of an also character exclusive perk, and you lose out on the teleporting, so you're trading off there.

What this means is that the telebrella & winbot, although in the forms of items and not some kind of isaac-esque stat multiplier, absolutely give winona incentive to play as her and her alone. She is not a swap character, even if others retain benefit from some of the things she can do, and that is exactly how things should be. Much of my Winona gameplay will heavily involve teleporting to and fro from the lunar island, my own boat, and the caves, allowing myself to pick up, and then transport absolutely gargantuan amounts of resources at a time in a way that no other character truly can, all the while giving winona the flexibility to bail/fight on situations that few characters could without extreme difficulty.

[Evelo]

The Celestial Portal was a mistake.

[viblym]

9 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

oh. I thought you were trolling, because you seem to have before. no offense.

to engage with you properly, I must say I disagree with the very base assessment of your post. I think you are Wrong and the dichotomy you place between "item based incentive" and intrinsic incentive is faulty. I think that an Item based incentive to play only loses its meaning when more compelling options enter the picture that outclass the preceding ones. For winona, there is simply no better method of transporation than the telebrella once the network has been set up, and the uses for travelling faster are effectively infinite, because this aspect is tied so deeply into the game. The winbot, although seemingly replaceable with a lazy forager, has the strong, strong benefit of being able to be used alongside other winbots, placing it squarely in first in the pick-up-items game when spammed. You may say that others can use it when it's already deployed, but much like what I have already stated about wickerbottom's books, no character can use the winbot on the go for any mass pickup scenario that may occur without it being part of a larger setup. The only thing that compares to the versatility and strength of winona with multiple winbots is maxwell, which comes in the form of an also character exclusive perk, and you lose out on the teleporting, so you're trading off there.

What this means is that the telebrella & winbot, although in the forms of items and not some kind of isaac-esque stat multiplier, absolutely give winona incentive to play as her and her alone. She is not a swap character, even if others retain benefit from some of the things she can do, and that is exactly how things should be. Much of my Winona gameplay will heavily involve teleporting to and fro from the lunar island, my own boat, and the caves, allowing myself to pick up, and then transport absolutely gargantuan amounts of resources at a time in a way that no other character truly can, all the while giving winona the flexibility to bail/fight on situations that few characters could without extreme difficulty.

I'm not saying Winona's items are bad and I have phrased several times in my post that her perks are literally appealing, I'm not talking about her downsides or even saying that the items are bad, just that the mindset and implementation of them comes from a bad mindset that is holding back items from what they could be. I'm honestly quite disrespected by the notion that I'm "trolling" and for whatever reason that made you not read my post before entering the conversation. I still feel like you don't understand what I'm trying to get across here and I honestly don't know what to tell you. I'm not calling Winona weak, I'm not calling the teletransport station or telebrella bad, I'm not calling Winbots bad, you're missing the point very very hard.

Just now, Evelo said:

The Celestial Portal was a mistake.

I'd rather players be able to have the freedom of spontaneous character choice over restricting them because a character isn't designed to be fun

[Primalflower]

17 minutes ago, viblym said:

I'm not talking about her downsides or even saying that the items are bad, just that the mindset and implementation of them comes from a bad mindset that is holding back items from what they could be. I still feel like you don't understand what I'm trying to get across here and I honestly don't know what to tell you. I'm not calling Winona weak, I'm not calling the teletransport station or telebrella bad, I'm not calling Winbots bad, you're missing the point very very hard.

I'm rereading this stuff, and I don't think I'm missing any kind of point here, and if I am, I would genuinely like to hear it again. I described how winona is uniquely good at the things she does in direct response to the point in your original post where you say that winona's skill tree is only QOL perks that are "just nice" I described anecdotes that directly contradict this just in the sense that you wouldn't have been able to do the things that I enjoy doing as winona as anyone else. This is me directly refuting the claims that are in the post. I responded to the idea that winona is unengaging to play by describing that the idea that item incentives never lose meaning for her because for the specific niches that they fall into, there is nothing better that she could use. I did not describe that Winona has good things to postulate that her things aren't bad, I described this to make a point about how winona has a kit that is engaging to me because its really good at the things it does and it makes me want to play as her for her unique experience.

[Echsrick]

13 minutes ago, viblym said:

I'd rather players be able to have the freedom of spontaneous character choice over restricting them because a character isn't designed to be fun

...i dont think i can follow you, you implie that there straight up characters in this game thats whole design of is to not have you have fun when playing that character? a very subjective kind of thinge of all things? like i dont think i understood that