Is it not Enough?

[RussoDaFederal]

13 minutes ago, Dingle said:

If you read between the lines, a lot of the Wendy Brigaders just hate elixirs. They hate using them. They hate making them. They hate the pipspook quest to get mourning glories to make them.

They STILL hate the pipspook quest, even though its vastly easier and gives more. And you can move pipspook spawners.

Due to this, I thought it would be a pretty good compromise if the Sisturn player tag buff also made it so that Abigail couldn't use healing elixirs when it was active. Or they were 50% effective.

I am not sure if that's what they actually want, though. Kind of sounds like even the lune blossom collection is too much to ask for.

That makes a lot of sense, but I don't know if they actually hate using elixirs or if they think elixirs are useless because you can't facetank some bosses even when you have spectral cure all applied.

I'm not gonna lie, I facetank whenever I can. I already beat each boss "fair and square" at least once and I don't find it very engaging, it's definitely not my favorite part of the game. But some bosses demand you to have some knowledge of the fight, and that's ok. That applies to all characters. Fighting bosses is absolutely optional anyway, except for bearger and deerclops, which you can learn to kite in half an hour. I don't know why some people are so stubborn over this. If you want a boss drop, you gotta defeat that boss. If that boss is hard, have some patience and learn to fight it properly. If people made reasonable requests like "extend Abi's shield to make CC multihit attacks easier to avoid" then I'd be 100% on board. But player tag was a ridiculous idea from the start, and most suggestions I see on the forum are completely over the top. The game doesn't need to be easier, Wendy does not have a harder time than Wilson (average character) fighting any boss to my knowledge, even before the skill tree.

[Mike23Ua]

7 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Wait for it...

Threads get heated because there’s a particular side of the community who want Wendy & Abigail to get even more buffs even though I have pointed to actual facts (introduced in this very same beta no less!) that should clearly show she’s gotten more than enough buffs already.

Yet those threads (reasonable & non-heated threads) get locked.. because we all know Klei wouldn’t dare to ever actually nerf Wendy.

[Pruinae]

6 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

I've written out so many replies about this just to discard them for the sake of not starting a dumpster fire forum battle (even if everyone plays nice and gives constructive feedback clashing opinions always lead to uncivil discourse and personal attacks). They will never think it's enough, someone literally suggested to make Abby invincible. I thought klei knew this and that's why they nerfed gestalt Abby but i guess they've been convinced these buffs are justified and so they've given another buff to silence the nerf complaints. 

LMAOO the amount of replies I've erased in the past few weeks just before sending is comical, there's basically no point in engaging with most of it anymore. What sucks is that this is happening through the holidays, so all of this Wendy-related push and pull got extended because of it (not really blaming anyone, it just is what it is, and it gets tiring).

I think everyone that had something constructive to say has already said it, now it's just the same like 4 people making posts (I think it has happened enough times now for us to have a case...) drowning the rest of the discussion.

[Debruh]

49 minutes ago, Dingle said:

If you read between the lines, a lot of the Wendy Brigaders just hate elixirs. They hate using them. They hate making them. They hate the pipspook quest to get mourning glories to make them.

They STILL hate the pipspook quest, even though its vastly easier and gives more. And you can move pipspook spawners.

Due to this, I thought it would be a pretty good compromise if the Sisturn player tag buff also made it so that Abigail couldn't use healing elixirs when it was active. Or they were 50% effective.

I am not sure if that's what they actually want, though. Kind of sounds like even the lune blossom collection is too much to ask for.

The hatred for elixirs is so weird too ngl

[CremeLover]

  

32 minutes ago, Dingle said:

If you read between the lines, a lot of the Wendy Brigaders just hate elixirs. They hate using them. They hate making them. They hate the pipspook quest to get mourning glories to make them.

They STILL hate the pipspook quest, even though its vastly easier and gives more. And you can move pipspook spawners.

Due to this, I thought it would be a pretty good compromise if the Sisturn player tag buff also made it so that Abigail couldn't use healing elixirs when it was active. Or they were 50% effective.

I am not sure if that's what they actually want, though. Kind of sounds like even the lune blossom collection is too much to ask for.

I don't hate Elixirs, I hate the Pipspook quest for reasons I've explained multiple times in other threads. You can make it easier and give more loot, but all that does is make a tedious and boring quest less tedious, it doesn't make it good. I'm happy for you if it is an activity you enjoy.

4 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

That makes a lot of sense, but I don't know if they actually hate using elixirs or if they think elixirs are useless because you can't facetank some bosses even when you have spectral cure all applied.

I'm not gonna lie, I facetank whenever I can. I already beat each boss "fair and square" at least once and I don't find it very engaging, it's definitely not my favorite part of the game. But some bosses demand you to have some knowledge of the fight, and that's ok. That applies to all characters. Fighting bosses is absolutely optional anyway, except for bearger and deerclops, which you can learn to kite in half an hour. I don't know why some people are so stubborn over this. If you want a boss drop, you gotta defeat that boss. If that boss is hard, have some patience and learn to fight it properly. If people made reasonable requests like "extend Abi's shield to make CC multihit attacks easier to avoid" then I'd be 100% on board. But player tag was a ridiculous idea from the start, and most suggestions I see on the forum are completely over the top. The game doesn't need to be easier, Wendy does not have a harder time than Wilson (average character) fighting any boss to my knowledge, even before the skill tree.

I'd be okay with adding a level 4 to Abigail and remove her player tag. Giving her extra defense for bosses alone is weird. I'll also be okay with giving extra effects to other potions like the defense ones for damage reduction. I'm not really in favor of removing all survivability lines from Abigail and rely on get good strats, moving the survivability to the Moon Line locking it behind Moon Guardian and making it as the inferior but easier option for people who don't wanna try too hard.

 

[kroban]

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

If you read between the lines, a lot of the Wendy Brigaders just hate elixirs. They hate using them. They hate making them. They hate the pipspook quest to get mourning glories to make them.

They STILL hate the pipspook quest, even though its vastly easier and gives more. And you can move pipspook spawners.

I can understand a player not liking the elixirs mechanic itself, at the end of the day is a character's mechanic, but why not just playing another character at that point? For example I don't like Maxwell's codex, which is why I don't play him. Honestly I don't get it, Elixirs are a core part of Wendy's basekit, this would be like a Woodie player forcefully maining him even tho they hate farming for idols, or someone insistently playing Willow even if they hate farming embers or constantly repairing Bernie. Or even like, a Maxwell main that hates using the codex.

 The pipspook quest right now is a joke, you can relocate tombstones 3 tiles away from your base and each pipspook gives you 20 glories for just walking for 1 minute. You can use those perks for 1 year temporarily and I bet you could easily fill 5+ chests out of mourning glory. Its extremely easy to stack elixirs now, so imo if Wendy players don't enjoy using elixirs that's on them, Klei can't change what a player likes.

[hyoton123]

28 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I'm not gonna lie, I facetank whenever I can. I already beat each boss "fair and square" at least once and I don't find it very engaging, it's definitely not my favorite part of the game.

My face is the boss’s place. (seriously, big part of why i love wig is unga bunga).

 

But seriously, same. I don’t play DST for a wildly involving bossing experience.

5 minutes ago, kroban said:

I can understand a player not liking the elixirs mechanic itself, at the end of the day is a character's mechanic, but why not just playing another character at that point?

As far as I can tell, they want to play wigfrid (wigfrod?) with a ghost critter.

[Koomin]

This update has really shown what the negative is of not having a "disagree" reaction or some other way to communicate that you politely don't want what someone has proposed.  It feels mean and unnecessary to comment on someone's post just to say you think they are wrong, and I was not doing it early in the beta because of that, and assume many others were too.  So then all you see is posts with unanimous support asking for buff after buff, which seem to have even influenced the skill tree designers judging by how much this Wendy update has swung to a ridiculous power level in at least 4 different abilities.   It wasn't until the last update very clearly crossed over a line that it became obvious that people really needed to start commenting and making it clear that it was not acceptable and that many people don't agree with these opinions.  Hopefully the response wasn't too late, I was just relying on the people designing the skill tree to appropriately disregard requests that were too much, but that clearly did not happen.

[Dingle]

38 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

  

I don't hate Elixirs, I hate the Pipspook quest for reasons I've explained multiple times in other threads. You can make it easier and give more loot, but all that does is make a tedious and boring quest less tedious, it doesn't make it good. I'm happy for you if it is an activity you enjoy.

I'd be okay with adding a level 4 to Abigail and remove her player tag. Giving her extra defense for bosses alone is weird. I'll also be okay with giving extra effects to other potions like the defense ones for damage reduction. I'm not really in favor of removing all survivability lines from Abigail and rely on get good strats, moving the survivability to the Moon Line locking it behind Moon Guardian and making it as the inferior but easier option for people who don't wanna try too hard.

 

It's not fun or anything. But it takes like a minute now. And gives you 20. I'd be snarky back to you, but this seems like such a non-issue that it's hard to care.

Giving her level 4 (for lune flowers?) seems to actually please people way more. That makes her generally more tanky, which I think is what people really want (they just generally don't say it).

[Debruh]

4 minutes ago, Koomin said:

This update has really shown what the negative is of not having a "disagree" reaction or some other way to communicate that you politely don't want what someone has proposed.  It feels mean and unnecessary to comment on someone's post just to say you think they are wrong, and I was not doing it early in the beta because of that, and assume many others were too.  So then all you see is posts with unanimous support asking for buff after buff, which seem to have even influenced the skill tree designers judging by how much this Wendy update has swung to a ridiculous power level in at least 4 different abilities.   It wasn't until the last update very clearly crossed over a line that it became obvious that people really needed to start commenting and making it clear that it was not acceptable and that many people don't agree with these opinions.  Hopefully the response wasn't too late, I was just relying on the people designing the skill tree to appropriately disregard requests that were too much, but that clearly did not happen.

Yea, I think the player tag thing especially pushed a lot of people into it.

Did give everyone a scare

[Dingle]

3 minutes ago, Koomin said:

This update has really shown what the negative is of not having a "disagree" reaction or some other way to communicate that you politely don't want what someone has proposed.  It feels mean and unnecessary to comment on someone's post just to say you think they are wrong, and I was not doing it early in the beta because of that, and assume many others were too.  So then all you see is posts with unanimous support asking for buff after buff, which seem to have even influenced the skill tree designers judging by how much this Wendy update has swung to a ridiculous power level in at least 4 different abilities.   It wasn't until the last update very clearly crossed over a line that it became obvious that people really needed to start commenting and making it clear that it was not acceptable and that many people don't agree with these opinions.  Hopefully the response wasn't too late, I was just relying on the people designing the skill tree to appropriately disregard requests that were too much, but that clearly did not happen.

The toxic positivity of having no negative reaction seems to REALLY backfire every single time, yes.

[Echsrick]

it is enought to the point were i say it again

maybe wendy sould not have gotten an update with other 2 characters that actualy need something more and better, as we can all see the damage that has done, there more wendy talk then wortox and walter COMBINED like....thats just not right

[Well-met]

18 minutes ago, Dingle said:

The toxic positivity of having no negative reaction seems to REALLY backfire every single time, yes.

Ratings in general are terrible for forums, even the postitive ones, because they change how people behave and nothing is genuine anymore. I wouldn't want any back.

[Debruh]

6 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

it is enought to the point were i say it again

maybe wendy sould not have gotten an update with other 2 characters that actualy need something more and better, as we can all see the damage that has done, there more wendy talk then wortox and walter COMBINED like....thats just not right

Genuinely suprised that I saw like two or three Walter posts.

Also, I have no idea what will happen in the future

 The characters that are left are Wicker, Webber, Maxwell, Wanda, Warly, etc all really popular characters...

[Echsrick]

7 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Genuinely suprised that I saw like two or three Walter posts.

Also, I have no idea what will happen in the future

 The characters that are left are Wicker, Webber, Maxwell, Wanda, Warly, etc all really popular characters...

sould have combined wendy with wes that would have gone fine......"fine"

alsol you forgot wx still not gotten a skill, even if it feels his rework has skill tree feelings allready goin for 

[Debruh]

Just now, Echsrick said:

sould have combined wendy with wes that would have gone fine......"fine"

alsol you forgot wx still not gotten a skill, even if it feels his rework has skill tree feelings allready goin for 

My mind goes blank when trying to name characters. I'm suprised I even remember Warly

Pretty sure the Wes thing would also spark debate. Should the skill tree nerf him or expand on balloons thing?

[Echsrick]

Just now, Debruh said:

My mind goes blank when trying to name characters. I'm suprised I even remember Warly

Pretty sure the Wes thing would also spark debate. Should the skill tree nerf him or expand on balloons thing?

the "fine" sure would be something

[SilverSpoon]

44 minutes ago, Koomin said:

This update has really shown what the negative is of not having a "disagree" reaction or some other way to communicate that you politely don't want what someone has proposed.  It feels mean and unnecessary to comment on someone's post just to say you think they are wrong, and I was not doing it early in the beta because of that, and assume many others were too.

To offer constructive criticism, or to not turn constructive criticism into a toxic post by adding unnecessary parts like "OP" or "Wendy Player just wants..." shouldn't be so hard...

[BalkanCockroach]

1 hour ago, Koomin said:

This update has really shown what the negative is of not having a "disagree" reaction

Spoiler

It's Shopcat 

Kilei don't look

43 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

To offer constructive criticism, or to not turn constructive criticism into a toxic post by adding unnecessary parts like "OP" or "Wendy Player just wants..." shouldn't be so hard...

Calling something overpowered isn't toxic, it's an opinion. Calling peoples opinions unnecessary however... is toxic.

[ZeRoboButler]

23 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

To offer constructive criticism, or to not turn constructive criticism into a toxic post by adding unnecessary parts like "OP" or "Wendy Player just wants..." shouldn't be so hard...

I think that a lot of this criticism stems from the fact that when a character is being changed, and community input is taken in to consideration when making changes, there are always going to be inputs that are mild, strange or down right outrageous game breaking. Due to so many people giving their input and so many having differing ideas of what to change, there will be discourse.

I personally have never found wendy to be interesting to play at all, It never felt appealing to play due to the way she is affected by the world and what she does to it. 

base ds wendy, was largely just a weaker wilson with and morbid child gimmick and a ghost that would occasionally be helpful, a character designed to make the player suffer less from darkness sanity drain and to give them a distraction or useful tool for hoards. This is probably a part of what made wendy appealing to beginners, back when ds had it's simple designs. 

Then we have the dst initial changes, where abby could be riled up, the sist-urn was added as well as potions, and abby applied a debuff in a attempt to make wendy and abby work together to fight their battles. Still pretty basic... but now we are here at the skill tree era, with potions wendy can apply to herself, more control over abby, easier access to her potions via more resources and duping chances, damage amp for abby, damage reduction for abby, resurrection alternatives.

It feels like there is a lot of things wendy can do now, and her downside doesn't seem to be even that important now, and keeping abby alive isn't that hard either with the reduction combined with the potions. Making Abby more durable seems a bit much right now with all the survivability she has now, my question for people who really enjoy wendy is, what more does she need and why?

[Koomin]

35 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

To offer constructive criticism, or to not turn constructive criticism into a toxic post by adding unnecessary parts like "OP" or "Wendy Player just wants..." shouldn't be so hard...

Unfortunately I don't have the time to write well thought out constructive criticism on each post I disagree with on don't starve forums given that I do other things for a lot of the day.  It is simply not a feasible request, as good as it sounds.  That is why the positive reactions like the heart are so useful.  You can quickly open a thread, and if you agree just react with a heart or other positive reaction.  Additionally, usually responding with constructive criticism results in a lot of people getting in a debate with you, which is again not something I have the time to support in every thread, and often not particularly enjoyable given the way people are treated.  Just reacting that you disagree would be much easier - the same way that you can just quickly react that you agree and move on.

There often isn't even any constructive criticism to add with a lot of the posts that have been being presented beyond, "this is way too strong", which again usually results in pretty upset and confrontational responses.

Also, I'm not sure why you think saying something is overpowered is toxic.  It just means that you think it breaks the balance and fun of the game.  It's possible that it has been used incorrectly by some people here, but I think you might be confused on the meaning and intent of the phrase.

[SilverSpoon]

35 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

Calling something overpowered isn't toxic, it's an opinion. Calling peoples opinions unnecessary however... is toxic.

23 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Also, I'm not sure why you think saying something is overpowered is toxic.  It just means that you think it breaks the balance and fun of the game.  It's possible that it has been used incorrectly by some people here, but I think you might be confused on the meaning and intent of the phrase.

OK, I'm sorry, "Just only saying 'OP'".

[Jakepeng99]

10 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

JoeW definitely wouldn't think so.

He wont agree with people using him as a weapon.

[Bumber64]

17 hours ago, Tranoze said:

With player tag Abi should be able to vote kick people and help me vote roll back when needed.

With player tag Abi should be able to spraypaint gang tags over her turf. This starts turf wars involving pitchforks and turf-raiser helms.