Is the current blessed sisturn 3 too strong?

[Pig Princess]

Just now, Debruh said:

I actually tried that fight, what I recommend is 

1) Use the murder action to get the buff. Then attack at get Abby away (rile her up too)

2) engage with armored bearger. Make sure to not stand next to Abby as to not get her in his aoe. Void cowl+ Scythe+Buffed Abby with the void elixir usually does enough damage to make him try to butt slam you.

3) dodge the butt slam and hit him as to knock him down. Spectral cure-all if you wanna do it safe. Go ham on the boss with Abby.

4) as he's getting up, use attack at to get Abby away, and hit him to make him aggro on you, get him sway from where he butt slammed in order to not get screwed over by the crater

5)repeat until he dies

But it differs from what I did only in riling her up. When I tried that, she bugged and didn't attack. What advantages riling her up gives me?

[Debruh]

1 minute ago, Pig Princess said:

But it differs from what I did only in riling her up. When I tried that, she bugged and didn't attack. What advantages riling her up gives me?

Makes her keep her distance.

Reading it back carefully we did basically do the same thing with just different commands, so sorry about my unneeded comment.

[Pig Princess]

By the way, my point is that if Abigail can survive Armored Bearger without player tag but with assistance of Wendy through team spirit commands, Abigail doesn't need player tag. All one has to do is to actually manage her and practice, and fight becomes fun instead of being facetank fest. Wendy's identity and playstyle are finally working, and they do so because of team spirit commands, i.e. tools for active managment of Abigail's AI, which is how it should be, instead of her becoming so tanky that player is not punished for ignoring her in the fight. Wendy is not Wilson, Abigail is not Bernie - the point of character is to manage Abigail and do things in Wendy's own way, which is how it has been since rework and which is how it should stay. 

If more options were added such as wider diversity of commands, removal of command animation and/or shared cooldown, it would suit Wendy much better. Buff to shields also could work as an alternative that is still engaging. Basically anything is fine that results in duo character remain themselves, i.e. when Wendy manages Abigail while fights herself.

[Pig Princess]

Someone on bilibili already came up with this strategy, as I just found out (I don't understand chineese, I found video through recommendations):

测试服 暗影阿比 全程 温蒂无伤 装甲熊。_哔哩哔哩bilibili_饥荒联机版

[Lardee]

2 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

By the way, I managed to kill Armored Bearger without player tag while keeping Abigail alive and outside of flower all the time (shadow affinity). Time to search for software and record. Shadow affinity is not necessary, but it makes things faster.

See this is the right approach to the game. If a boss fight seems impossible, you figure out a way to make it possible.

I don't know how to kill Armored Bearger without the player tag, however I also I don't think the game should revolve around me and what I'm able to do.  Therefore,  instead of telling Klei they need to make the entire character way easier, I'd just learn how to do the fight.

[Nikki Darks]

I honestly think the Sisturn 3 would be fine if it was exlusive to Lunar Abby. 

Having it on regular and Shadow is what breaks it.

Lunar Abby was specifically designed for bosses, so it would be fine if she got it, but Shadow Abby ends up outdamaging and outsurviving Lunar Abby because of it, rendering her pointless in comparison.

[SilverSpoon]

 I think that bosses that can be tanked with "Blessed sisturn 3+Spectral Cure-All spam", can be defeated by Woodie's "Treeguard Feller II" without any effort since long ago. So Blessed sisturn 3 is not OP.

I verified can be defeat by Treeguard Feller II that gigants which were in the "Blessed Sisturn III is OP" video, Bearger, Deerclops, Crystal Deerclops, and Ancient Fuelweaver(plz look my posting history.)

[Koomin]

13 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

 I think that bosses that can be tanked with "Blessed sisturn 3+Spectral Cure-All spam", can be defeated by Woodie's "Treeguard Feller II" without any effort since long ago. So Blessed sisturn 3 is not OP.

I verified can be defeat by Treeguard Feller II that gigants which were in the "Blessed Sisturn III is OP" video, Bearger, Deerclops, Crystal Deerclops, and Ancient Fuelweaver(plz look my posting history.)

These two things are not even remotely related.  The gymnastics to justify this skill are really getting weird now.

[YuRinshue]

2 minutes ago, Koomin said:

These two things are not even remotely related.  The gymnastics to justify this skill are really getting weird now.

When a skill tree point has stronger functionality and is retained, many people are obsessed with making weaker skill tree points weaker. This is the correlation between the two.

[Koomin]

3 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

When a skill tree point has stronger functionality and is retained, many people are obsessed with making weaker skill tree points weaker. This is the correlation between the two.

Saying that Woodie's tree guard ability is stronger than Abigail getting the player tag is ridiculous.  They are not even a comparable type of ability at all.  For example, Abigail wanders around the world with the player tag doing whatever she wants, while Woodie loses the treeguards as soon as they walk away.  Just showing treeguards hitting a boss shows nothing.  Comparing them like this makes no sense. On top of that, Woodie's tree guard ability letting him hide while they hit bosses is also a poorly designed ability.  Justifying a poorly designed ability being added by showing another poorly designed ability is not good design.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Nikki Darks said:

I honestly think the Sisturn 3 would be fine if it was exlusive to Lunar Abby. 

Having it on regular and Shadow is what breaks it.

Lunar Abby was specifically designed for bosses, so it would be fine if she got it, but Shadow Abby ends up outdamaging and outsurviving Lunar Abby because of it, rendering her pointless in comparison.

So what your saying is that the “Lunar” side of rifts will focus more on large Bosses (Deerclops, Bearger, Undead Hound) while the “Shadow” Side of Rifts will focus more on smaller mobs but in groups? (InkBlight Trio)

If that is indeed true than Lunar Abby being good at bosses and Shadow Abby being good at hordes is an interesting concept.

[SilverSpoon]

19 minutes ago, Koomin said:

These two things are not even remotely related.  The gymnastics to justify this skill are really getting weird now.

Please write at least why think so...

I think that collecting a lot of Spectral Cure All and spamming them, collecting a lot of Treeguard Idols and spamming them, or even collecting a lot of Gunpowder or DragonPie and spamming them, are all "victories by collecting excessive resources."

[YuRinshue]

7 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Saying that Woodie's tree guard ability is stronger than Abigail getting the player tag is ridiculous.  They are not even a comparable type of ability at all.  For example, Abigail wanders around the world with the player tag doing whatever she wants, while Woodie loses the treeguards as soon as they walk away.  Just showing treeguards hitting a boss shows nothing.  Comparing them like this makes no sense. On top of that, Woodie's tree guard ability letting him hide while they hit bosses is also a poorly designed ability.  Justifying a poorly designed ability being added by showing another poorly designed ability is not good design.

What a feature can achieve is important and good, not its usage threshold. If a feature is so cheap that it looks like dust, but its functionality is almost invisible, then it should be a bad design.
Why does Abigail need player tags? It's because Wendy wants Abigail alive when facing the boss.
Woody's Treeman Summon is also like this, which can help Woody defeat bosses who cannot be defeated by transformation.
In terms of positioning, the two are consistent, which is also the reason for comparison, rather than comparing based on convenience.

[SilverSpoon]

33 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Saying that Woodie's tree guard ability is stronger than Abigail getting the player tag is ridiculous.  They are not even a comparable type of ability at all.  For example, Abigail wanders around the world with the player tag doing whatever she wants, while Woodie loses the treeguards as soon as they walk away.  Just showing treeguards hitting a boss shows nothing.  Comparing them like this makes no sense.

Of course, there are differences, but I compared them because they have the following in common:
- You can tank the boss with "No effort"
- Consume a lot of resources
However, regarding the issue you presented, if you keep a lot of tree guards waiting on moon remote island, place a telelocator focus there, and teleport the boss there, so Woodie can wanders around the world he wants with the tree guard doing whatever too.

33 minutes ago, Koomin said:

On top of that, Woodie's tree guard ability letting him hide while they hit bosses is also a poorly designed ability.  Justifying a poorly designed ability being added by showing another poorly designed ability is not good design.

People on the forums haven't thought so, noticed so, or pointed so out for over a year and half, and when I present it as evidence that "Abigail's with player tag isn't OP", people start calling it "bad game design" or "poorly designed" now. That's Beefalo Manure. Nobody cares about my main Woodie.

[Koomin]

52 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

What a feature can achieve is important and good, not its usage threshold. If a feature is so cheap that it looks like dust, but its functionality is almost invisible, then it should be a bad design.
Why does Abigail need player tags? It's because Wendy wants Abigail alive when facing the boss.
Woody's Treeman Summon is also like this, which can help Woody defeat bosses who cannot be defeated by transformation.
In terms of positioning, the two are consistent, which is also the reason for comparison, rather than comparing based on convenience.

This is just grabbing at anything to justify to yourself that the ability is ok because feeling overpowered and playing an overpowered character feels good to some people.  If you want to play an unbalanced character just saying that would be a simpler argument.

[SilverSpoon]

27 minutes ago, Koomin said:

This is just grabbing at anything to justify to yourself that the ability is ok because feeling overpowered and playing an overpowered character feels good to some people.  If you want to play an unbalanced character just saying that would be a simpler argument.

There are plenty of such character mods available in the workshop, so there's no reason to do such a thing here.

Please do not selfishly assume people's feelings or motives.

Edit: Aww, I don't know if it's Overpower, but my crow goddess Utsuho(My Icon Character) is there too...

[Xplan]

12 hours ago, Dingle said:

In an ideal world where the Wendy feedback was less tumultuous, the Wendy mains really should have asked harder for some changes to the shield and distilled vengeance elixers. Or some perk line that made them better. I never, ever use them, except maybe the cheap one for a bad frog rain, just for fun.

that is Me

(some of the suggestions are out of date)

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

There are plenty of such character mods available in the workshop, so there's no reason to do such a thing here.

Please do not selfishly assume people's feelings or motives.

Edit: Aww, I don't know if it's Overpower, but my crow goddess Utsuho(My Icon Character) is there too...

(Offtopic)

was obsessed with a satori mod when I was newbie to DST.

I really love these character appearance with a special "DS" style...

[Dingle]

5 minutes ago, Xplan said:

that is Me

(some of the suggestions are out of date)

Oh, I meant for Abigail! But yeah giving a hit of knockback protection sounds handy.

[Xplan]

Just now, Dingle said:

Oh, I meant for Abigail! But yeah giving a hit of knockback protection sounds handy.

It won't boost beefalo Wendy' dmg any further but sure will make Wendy more comfortable if there is an insurance.

Besides, this elixir won't let beefalo Wendy tank bosses. And three mourning glories and a living log for one knockback seems to be a fair price.

[YuRinshue]

10 hours ago, Koomin said:

This is just grabbing at anything to justify to yourself that the ability is ok because feeling overpowered and playing an overpowered character feels good to some people.  If you want to play an unbalanced character just saying that would be a simpler argument.

No one wants to play a role that is useless in other aspects besides their passion, unless you only want to prove that you are very skilled through this role, rather than hoping that he is interesting. If you confuse 'having your own strengths' with' overwhelming imbalance ', your argument will only make people feel unreasonable.

[djturner]

14 hours ago, Nikki Darks said:

Lunar Abby was specifically designed for bosses, so it would be fine if she got it, but Shadow Abby ends up outdamaging and outsurviving Lunar Abby because of it, rendering her pointless in comparison.

For my own clarification, in what way does Shadow Abigail outsurvive Lunar? In my experience the attack pattern of Lunar results in less damage taken overall and thus less healing potions needed. In addition to that, though, I think the main advantage of Lunar is that it plays itself. You get a nice single target damage upgrade, you can still swap back to regular under New Moon, and you don't need to worry about sacrificing things from your inventory for the damage upgrade (or doing the prep-work to obtain them). Wendy is already so strong that I find Shadow Abigail to be kind of overkill; Lunar's ease of use is very appealing.

On the subject of the thread more broadly, I'm kind of torn. I have generally found certain Wendy fanatics to be arguing in bad faith and to be clearly biased toward wanting their favorite character to be broken, but the Sisturn III solution is not entirely out of line with some other characters that we've seen. For three insight points and the (relatively minor) trouble of making it to the Lunar Island and getting your Lunar Blossom farm going back home, you earn the right to "cheese" a lot of bosses by mass producing Spectral Cure-Alls. In practice, I don't know how much different that is than grinding an absolute load of Nightmare Fuel on Max or Embers on Willow or Gunpowder on Wilson or Marble on Wolfgang or Catapults/Generators on Winona, etc etc. As a general rule I don't mind characters given the option to mass produce something to trivialize boss content, that's a very established part of the game.

You won't win any boss rush contests or points for style but it rewards players who are less skilled at the combat side of things for knowledge and skill on the survival side instead. As a result I'm probably more in the camp of number tweaking (either effectiveness of Cure-Alls, ease of producing them, or something else in that area) rather than blowing it all up again in search of a different survivability answer. If you fail to prepare, Abigail can still die, and we leave her inability to interact with Shadows intact as well, so I think Wendy comes through this with her identifiable weakness still there.

[Xplan]

19 minutes ago, djturner said:

For my own clarification, in what way does Shadow Abigail outsurvive Lunar? In my experience the attack pattern of Lunar results in less damage taken overall and thus less healing potions needed. In addition to that, though, I think the main advantage of Lunar is that it plays itself. You get a nice single target damage upgrade, you can still swap back to regular under New Moon, and you don't need to worry about sacrificing things from your inventory for the damage upgrade (or doing the prep-work to obtain them). Wendy is already so strong that I find Shadow Abigail to be kind of overkill; Lunar's ease of use is very appealing.

On the subject of the thread more broadly, I'm kind of torn. I have generally found certain Wendy fanatics to be arguing in bad faith and to be clearly biased toward wanting their favorite character to be broken, but the Sisturn III solution is not entirely out of line with some other characters that we've seen. For three insight points and the (relatively minor) trouble of making it to the Lunar Island and getting your Lunar Blossom farm going back home, you earn the right to "cheese" a lot of bosses by mass producing Spectral Cure-Alls. In practice, I don't know how much different that is than grinding an absolute load of Nightmare Fuel on Max or Embers on Willow or Gunpowder on Wilson or Marble on Wolfgang or Catapults/Generators on Winona, etc etc. As a general rule I don't mind characters given the option to mass produce something to trivialize boss content, that's a very established part of the game.

You won't win any boss rush contests or points for style but it rewards players who are less skilled at the combat side of things for knowledge and skill on the survival side instead. As a result I'm probably more in the camp of number tweaking (either effectiveness of Cure-Alls, ease of producing them, or something else in that area) rather than blowing it all up again in search of a different survivability answer. If you fail to prepare, Abigail can still die, and we leave her inability to interact with Shadows intact as well, so I think Wendy comes through this with her identifiable weakness still there.

who is your main character? may i ask

[djturner]

6 minutes ago, Xplan said:

who is your main character? may i ask

I don't mind the question, but I don't have a great answer. While non-survivor characters tend to not appeal to me on a lore/nerdy/roleplay level, when it comes to the rest of the gang, especially the original cast, I try and play them regularly. If I'm starting or joining a new world, and I'm not picking Random, I tend to pick somebody I haven't played in a while rather than any kind of main. Like anybody I've developed my favorites but, for me, I get more enjoyment overall playing a variety rather than just sending my top 1-3 survivors.

[Catapult 2.0]

NO