Is the current blessed sisturn 3 too strong?

[WenericMember]

Gauging sentiment before i lose my sanity and get eaten by the nightmares.

[Arcwell]

With spectral cure-all, yes.

Without spectral cure-all, no.

And I want to make it clear that I really, really want an alternative to spectral cure-all that is not as tedious as the previous Blessed Sisturn IV skill was.

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

刚才，Arcwell说：

有了光谱万能药，是的。

没有光谱万能药，不。

我想明确的是，我真的非常想要一个光谱疗法的替代品，它不像之前的Blessed Sisturn IV技能那样乏味。

There are large and small blood-retoning medicines. You can use them as needed.

[Steorra]

Just now, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

There are large and small blood-retoning medicines. You can use them as needed.

I guess they just want something new and fun.

spamming elixirs for healing is boring and annoying.

[Arcwell]

Just now, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

There are large and small blood-retoning medicines. You can use them as needed.

Perhaps I should've specified, I meant an alternative to elixirs in general.

[WenericMember]

4 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

With spectral cure-all, yes.

Without spectral cure-all, no.

And I want to make it clear that I really, really want an alternative to spectral cure-all that is not as tedious as the previous Blessed Sisturn IV skill was.

Thats fair enough. The probable best solution here is to have blessed sisturn 3 turn into an "elxirless" abigail, with reduced/removed potion effectiveness for stats. Still wouldnt appeal to me,but hey thays the point of a skill tree.

As it is though it needs changes.

[Steorra]

let us spamming polls for nerfing Wendy.

[WenericMember]

6 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Poll #2 has released. 

Tbf the first poll was comparing the first and second iterations of blessed sisturn. I asked but the op didnt give an otion to not endorse either.

[Arcwell]

10 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Thats fair enough. The probable best solution here is to have blessed sisturn 3 turn into an "elxirless" abigail, with reduced/removed potion effectiveness for stats. Still wouldnt appeal to me,but hey thays the point of a skill tree.

As it is though it needs changes.

I don't know what the best answer is. I don't think anyone does. I would imagine removing elixirs altogether has its own issues, even though imo that's the only thing that makes it a problem in the first place.

At this point most of Wendy's skills are tied together to a point where changing one has a massive effect on the others, which makes balancing any individual one challenging to say the least.

I'm just hopeful that the end product isn't like the old Blessed Sisturn IV. I would like to actually want to use the skill. Hopefully by the end of this everyone else who uses Wendy also has a reason to use it.

[WenericMember]

3 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

I don't know what the best answer is. I don't think anyone does. I would imagine removing elixirs altogether has its own issues, even though imo that's the only thing that makes it a problem in the first place.

At this point most of Wendy's skills are tied together to a point where changing one has a massive effect on the others, which makes balancing any individual one challenging to say the least.

I'm just hopeful that the end product isn't like the old Blessed Sisturn IV. I would like to actually want to use the skill. Hopefully by the end of this everyone else who uses Wendy also has a reason to use it.

The same thoughtt had occured to me. Abigails skills are tightly interwoven. 

By the same token I agree Wendy should have a skill that by nature increases the baseline margin for error. Its just with potions its presently too much.

[ma xiao ming]

温蒂其实并不需要太强的伤害，如果阿比盖尔一直参加战斗的话，温蒂的dps是很正常的，但是在面对一些特殊BOSS的时候阿比盖尔更容易受伤去世，她现在需要的是自己在战斗的时候，阿比盖尔能一直陪着她一起战斗，我认为月亮与暗影分支应该为玩家提供，1保护阿比盖尔受到更少的伤害，2阿比盖尔的伤害显著提升，3亦或者阿比盖尔与温蒂合二为一.温蒂的攻击会附带阿比盖尔的特殊效果以及伤害

[Catapult 2.0]

40 minutes ago, Shining Galaxy said:

Many people tend to overestimate Abi's health points. In reality, players cannot wear armor with less than 80% defense in a boss fight. Therefore, a Wes wearing log suit can take 375 damage without using any healing items. Considering the double damage bosses deal to non-player characters, this value is actually 750, which is higher than Abi's maximum HP of 600. Even with the player tag, Abi's HP is equivalent to only 120 player HP. However, the healing amount of the spectral cure-all does indeed increase from the equivalent of 60 player HP to 120 player HP. But the process of making the spectral cure-all also consumes 40 player HP, and since Abi and the player are fighting together, facing a boss with area-of-effect attacks still requires the player to resupply. Giving Abi her own exclusive jellybeans is not overpowered.Moreover, the player tag only applies to the BOSS. When facing a group of hounds, especially those with varglets, Abi is still equivalent to a 60HP player. If it's daytime, Abi is quite difficult to deal with and still requires coordinated attacks from players to handle.

That's right, that's too accurate. I don't know why so many people are shouting to weaken Abigail, I doubt that they used Wendy to defeat bosses with high aoe damage such as Celestial, Toadstool, and Armored bearer while ensuring that Abigail didn't die the whole time

对呀，你说得太准确了。不知道为什么那么多人喊着削弱Abigail，我很怀疑他们是否使用温蒂在全程保证Abigail不死亡的情况下击败天体，蟾蜍，装甲熊等有着高aoe伤害boss

[NINA1917]

2 hours ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

That's right, that's too accurate. I don't know why so many people are shouting to weaken Abigail, I doubt that they used Wendy to defeat bosses with high aoe damage such as Celestial, Toadstool, and Armored bearer while ensuring that Abigail didn't die the whole time

In the past, during actual battles, I would put away Abigail and control Wendy to complete the challenge alone. If the enemies I faced were the bears and deer behind the rift, I would also abandon the Pivolo

[Pig Princess]

6 hours ago, WenericMember said:

Gauging sentiment before i lose my sanity and get eaten by the nightmares.

Unfortunally, I don't think you are going to help Wendy's case with such polls. There are more Wendy players who use Abigail as a crutch than there are Wendy players who go in debth of the character, i.e. use positioning, elixirs, commands to keep Abigail alive, who like Wendy&Abigail precisely because they are duo character and it's fun to do fights in different way that Wilson would, and it's fun to manage Abigail.

No, best case scenario they want Abigail to be unkillable as they do boss fight precisely the way Wilson would, and worse case scenario they ask for Abigail to be able to do boss fights for them, like she did in second build in gestalt form (because of invulnerability during attack). Of course they are going to vote that currently everything is fine and they will outvote everyone else. The question is: do Klei want to make inspired character that is unique but requires effort to unlock full potential or do they want to satisfy as much people as possible even at the cost of game quality?

I'm writing this after fighting Armored Bearger and Crystal Deerclops for a 3 hours already, not counting all the time I spent yesterday and before current built. I think I'm getting enlightement of sort.

What Wendy needed as a help from skill tree was not ability to do more damage or even keep Abigail alive during battle with new bosses (the rest she handles fine). She needed an ability to do them in another way than Wilson would, i.e. she needed help in carrying her duo character identity to new fights where she still manages Abigail, has substantial gains as the result and is punished for not managing her other part. Currently only 2 skills help to achieve that: one that gives "escape" command and another that gives "attack at" command (I suppose you could arguably include shadow sisterhood 3 because of resource managment and necessity choose when to murder your rabbit/fish for most profit instead of wasting 20 butterflies at the beginning of the fight). Even before skill tree she could use Abigail during stun phases to boost her damage, even if physical type only, and it didn't require elixirs either; planar gear makes her effective damage multiplier more like 0.9x rather than 0.75x as well. Vigor mortis elixir allows her to kite Crystal Deerclops like Wilson provided she herself has additional speed boosts (cane + magi), and cane/club/magi/road were in the game since ancient times. I actually did fight with Crystal Deerclops with Vigor mortis while not using any skills and it's actually fine. What skilltree needs to address is to how to do fights as duo character, like how Abigail's presence alters how you do Bee Queen, Ancient Fuelweaver, even Eye/Twins of Terror (you choose different positioning in latter case and maintain it, also Abigail handles minions). Ideally fights as Wendy&Abigail need to be sidegrade to Wilson, or maybe slight upgrade while being different, i.e. Wendy should ideally need different resources for them or more of one resource and less of other, do different movements, have one group of things to worry about more (Abigail's fragility, positioning of both of them) and other group of things to worry about less (minions, unavoidable damage (bishops), frequent stuns from being hit herself (tentacles/tallbirds)).

I'm almost able to do fight with Armored Bearger and keep Abigail up all the time, without player tag, I just need more practice and find software to record if I manage. But it is possible to avoid swings and butt attack while not being hit yourself, it's just that animation is really long and requires precise timing, and there is no way to bind controls of "spells" to keyboard (I'm moving with mouse and I'm hopeless at moting with WASD). I use a mod that does that, but as of yesterday they broke something and now escape keybind doesn't work, also they use X key for unsummoning which I'm accustomed to use for pause.

The more I think about it and watch forums, the more I'm convinced that Wendy suffers as the result of her being so good at carrying player through basic survival. People find that after picking Wendy they can survive much better than as other characters (except maybe Wigfrid, but she suffers from the same issue). What many don't realise is that they didn't become better, they just picked easier character at this task and rely on it like a crutch. And it would be fine if it ended at this - after all if they like character and achieve reward feeling while not hindering other's enjoyment, it's fine. However, instead of improving and practicing those sides of the character that are the same or harder compared to others from the cast, people demand for Wendy to be able to carry them even at the rest of tasks in the game, to remove downsides, to remove debth. Check all those suggestions for Abigail helping with shadows, or threads asking to bring back gestalt Abigail's invulnerability during attack, or all those suggestions which became features of more maximum HP and instant level up to 3rd level.

Of course, not every newbie or casual player is like this. But the more sample size you have, the larger is absolute number of entitled players, and when they meet each other (which is easier in large numbers), the disaster happens. Add to this the fact that all people have confirmation bias, i.e. they hold much higher standart for something to be accepted if it contradicts their views, but much lower standard if it confirms it. Add to this people who both don't test beta and don't have thorought knowledge of the game, but still give feedback, and when this fact is revealed they say it's alright stance of the universe instead of admitting that their feedback lacks.

I just hope that even if developers don't play in their game, they still hold some standarts. But considering they patched a bug that could potentially make shield elixirs viable and didn't make it a feature, or give some equivalent, they most likely don't want them to be viable. I'm writing about planar weapons dealing damage to Abigail but triggering shield instead of unsummoning. It could be nice if Wendy could trigger shield of Abigail, and it would still require reaction, to be in danger, game knowledge and strategy. After all shield lasts so little even when buffed and can't be triggered by hits that are blocked by it.

I wish there was a way to get skilltree of great debth even for popular character, not just strong skill tree.

[Mike23Ua]

I can not play in betas but I can read the descriptions of Wendy’s skill tree and instantly tell you that they overturned her skill tree.

I can provide a quick TL:DR conclusion for such:

King Boo (not his official name but I’m calling him that just cause I can..) got changes to be more viable to help Wendy with the bigger foes (bosses)

But that is IMMEDIATELY made redundant now with all the changes they’ve made to Abigail where I’ve watched videos of Wendy players mostly playing AFK Simulator while Abby fights bosses.

I don’t understand what the purpose between King Boo, ghost armies etc is- If Abby can be given “player” tags and significant survive bosses better ALONGSIDE The additional things that were added to aid Wendy in those specific scenarios..?

Either all the filler fluff stuff (intended to help) needs to be completely removed, OR they need to consider significantly Re-Nerfing Abigail’s survival ability.

OTHERWISE, these things contradict one another’s existence.

[Steorra]

24 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

It could be nice if Wendy could trigger shield of Abigail,

hmm, was just use this technique for CC fighting 3 years ago (or 2 years ago? I mean when CC patched out). You may trigger Abi's shield multiple times in a short period by using the weather pain.

[Pig Princess]

17 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I can not play in betas but I can read the descriptions of Wendy’s skill tree and instantly tell you that they overturned her skill tree

By the way, I didn't mean you. You explicitly state that you can't play beta quite often, it's much better than not say it and allow everyone think that you tested it. At least if you happen to be mistaken about some thing in the game, somebody can correct you and nobody holds hard feelings, otherwise it feels like person lies to me by omission.

17 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

King Boo

Do you refer to "scare" command? In case you do, it must be pointed out that bosses themselves are unaffected by it, only their minions can suffer (as well as any non-boss entity that can be scared in the first place, so shadows are unaffected while clockworks are). Also while Abigail does scare command she doesn't attack herself, so it's not very useful in Bee Queen fight, for example, because you need grumble bees to get hit so they don't stunlock you. But it's very useful command outside of boss battles. Not that Wendy needed it, but it's fun to use and I'm fine with it.

10 minutes ago, Steorra said:

hmm, was just use this technique for CC fighting 3 years ago (or 2 years ago? I mean when CC patched out). You may trigger Abi's shield multiple times in a short period by using the weather pain.

While you can do it, weather pain creates tornadoes that have random trajectory, which means that during CC fight it's just as likely that tornado will trigger shield for second attack as that tornado will go elsewhere and 150 damage from CC gets through. It's also quite expensive to use for every hit, or even twice for double hit. And shield doesn't last through entire double attack even if buffed with elixir if triggered before first hit.

[Steorra]

17 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

While you can do it, weather pain creates tornadoes that have random trajectory, which means that during CC fight it's just as likely that tornado will trigger shield for second attack as that tornado will go elsewhere and 150 damage from CC gets through. It's also quite expensive to use for every hit, or even twice for double hit.

it was far more better than no weather pain helping. And not too much expensive to use tbh.

战牛温蒂携阿比盖尔无耗速杀月岛新boss天体英雄_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

here's my video from 3 years ago.

 

[Pig Princess]

57 minutes ago, Steorra said:

it was far more better than no weather pain helping. And not too much expensive to use tbh.

战牛温蒂携阿比盖尔无耗速杀月岛新boss天体英雄_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

here's my video from 3 years ago.

 

Is there a specific reason why you didn't use speed elixir in first 2 phases? You need from 1 to 2 of those, depending on weapon/beefalo tendency and amount of dusk and night segments. I usually need 2 for default beefalo for the first Celestial Champion kill, but 1 for second and further kills, since they can be done right after release of mysterious energy, meaning I can have speed buff on Abigail and she can deal 40 damage because of night. In both cases it's chaper than single spectral cure-all.

As for the third phase, you've spent quite a lot of expensive elixirs, and you had to constantly pause the fight to unsummon and summon Abigail back. It would be a perfect use case for shield elexir provided you could guarantee shield triggering from weather pain (or your own attack) and not CC attack. Wouldn't it be better if you used only one elixir instead of burning through both weather pain and spectral cure-alls?

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Is there a specific reason why you didn't use speed elixir in first 2 phases? You need from 1 to 2 of those, depending on weapon/beefalo tendency and amount of dusk and night segments. I usually need 2 for default beefalo for the first Celestial Champion kill, but 1 for second and further kills, since they can be done right after release of mysterious energy, meaning I can have speed buff on Abigail and she can deal 40 damage because of night.

As for the third phase, you've spent quite a lot of expensive elixirs, and you had to constantly pause the fight to unsummon and summon Agigail back. It would be a perfect use case for shield elexir provided you could guarantee shield triggering from weather pain (or your own attack) and not CC attack. Wouldn't it be better if you used only one elixir instead of burning through both weather pain and spectral cure-alls?

the skills was immature at that time, and much appreciate for your ideas.

for the 3rd phase, I have seen there was other player who tried the shield elixirs when I searching my video. It seems the elixir consuming is not quite different between these 2 method. I may check it again later.

10 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Is there a specific reason why you didn't use speed elixir in first 2 phases? You need from 1 to 2 of those, depending on weapon/beefalo tendency and amount of dusk and night segments. I usually need 2 for default beefalo for the first Celestial Champion kill, but 1 for second and further kills, since they can be done right after release of mysterious energy, meaning I can have speed buff on Abigail and she can deal 40 damage because of night.

As for the third phase, you've spent quite a lot of expensive elixirs, and you had to constantly pause the fight to unsummon and summon Agigail back. It would be a perfect use case for shield elexir provided you could guarantee shield triggering from weather pain (or your own attack) and not CC attack. Wouldn't it be better if you used only one elixir instead of burning through both weather pain and spectral cure-alls?

温蒂携手姐姐大战天体英雄_饥荒联机版

I'm sorry, you're right. Your method would be more cheaper than my original one. just have checked this video again which used the method you metioned by other player

[Yifei_]

17 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

It would be a perfect use case for shield elexir provided you could guarantee shield triggering from weather pain (or your own attack) and not CC attack.

The idea of using Weather Pain is brilliant. I remember seeing someone also use the Brightshade Staff to trigger an invincible shield of Abigail to fight against Armored Bearger before.

[Pig Princess]

48 minutes ago, Steorra said:

just have checked this video again which used the method you metioned by other player

But as you can see, it took 1.5 weather pains to do with ornery beefalo and war saddle. And some damage still got through, like that time when tornado went the other direction and Abigail recieved hit from CC. It wouldn't be too bad if it was the only damage Abigail took, but weather pain itself consistently drained nearly 75% of her heath and author had to use spectral cure-all. And that was on a beefalo, if one fought on foot, one would need several shield elixirs to apply between spectral cure-alls. I needed around 2.5-3 weather pains when I did it myself on foot (around 2 or 3 years ago), which in addition to be cluncky to use (I had to switch between main weapon and weather pain, which also took time, even if it was quick) was quite expensive.

Also not everyone likes ornery beefalo, and war saddle depends on random chance of finding ewecus unless Year of the Bunnymen is active. But you can't have this event active every time you play on someone else's server.

Not to mention the fact that distilled vengeance is unreasonably expensive compared to the other shield elixir. 20 recoil damage is nothing, recoil damage should be equal to what enemy deals to Abigail to justify increased cost.

Still, rather than depending on weather pain, I would prefer shield to trigger with more types of items. It could be planar component weapons, or shield could trigger from any attack (from Wendy on Abigail) provided shield elixir is applied. It would'n be too strong because only one elixir can be applied at a time (so extra healing), and also player would need to pick precise time to trigger it neither too soon nor too late, as well as kite themselves.

[Dingle]

1 hour ago, Pig Princess said:

But as you can see, it took 1.5 weather pains to do with ornery beefalo and war saddle. And some damage still got through, like that time when tornado went the other direction and Abigail recieved hit from CC. It wouldn't be too bad if it was the only damage Abigail took, but weather pain itself consistently drained nearly 75% of her heath and author had to use spectral cure-all. And that was on a beefalo, if one fought on foot, one would need several shield elixirs to apply between spectral cure-alls. I needed around 2.5-3 weather pains when I did it myself on foot (around 2 or 3 years ago), which in addition to be cluncky to use (I had to switch between main weapon and weather pain, which also took time, even if it was quick) was quite expensive.

Also not everyone likes ornery beefalo, and war saddle depends on random chance of finding ewecus unless Year of the Bunnymen is active. But you can't have this event active every time you play on someone else's server.

Not to mention the fact that distilled vengeance is unreasonably expensive compared to the other shield elixir. 20 recoil damage is nothing, recoil damage should be equal to what enemy deals to Abigail to justify increased cost.

Still, rather than depending on weather pain, I would prefer shield to trigger with more types of items. It could be planar component weapons, or shield could trigger from any attack (from Wendy on Abigail) provided shield elixir is applied. It would'n be too strong because only one elixir can be applied at a time (so extra healing), and also player would need to pick precise time to trigger it neither too soon nor too late, as well as kite themselves.

In an ideal world where the Wendy feedback was less tumultuous, the Wendy mains really should have asked harder for some changes to the shield and distilled vengeance elixers. Or some perk line that made them better. I never, ever use them, except maybe the cheap one for a bad frog rain, just for fun.

[Pig Princess]

By the way, I managed to kill Armored Bearger without player tag while keeping Abigail alive and outside of flower all the time (shadow affinity). Time to search for software and record. Shadow affinity is not necessary, but it makes things faster.

Basically so long as one keeps Abigail at the opposite side of boss and attacks until the very last moment, Armored Bearger targets Wendy. The first attack boss does is ground pound; to dodge that Abigail needs to be further than Wendy and Wendy needs to bait it. Then one can murder butterflies or something equivalent (I used 10 and it was overkill, 5 is just a bit too little), and before going into bear range one needs to send Abigail through bearger behind bearger, and as soon as possible follow and attack while also going behind bearger. Then one has to reposition oneself so Abigail is at the opposite direction and attack until the very last moment before dodge, otherwise bearger switches aggro on Abigail. Butt attack can be dodged by "escape command", however, make sure you are not in range as well, as you need to be on foot to stun the boss. Alternatively, once can let Abi tank this attack, but be sure to not be in range yourself for the same reason and to avoid bug that make Abi receive double damage if you both are hit. Then it's free punching phase, and right before it ends one has to send Abigail through boss and behind it and immediately attack before dodging ground pound. Rinse and repaet until boss is dead. It usually takes 2 stun cycle, and Abi has enough HP to withstand them. Even if she dies, you can resummon her during stun phase and proceed.

Fight either goes very quick and well, or it's a disaster when you are hit 3 times and Abi dies from collateral damage since she tries to follow you right into swipe. Still, I think with more practice I could make it more reliable, and such thing - 1 mistake being very punishing, but recovery being very doable even without elixirs - already exists in Fuelweaver and Twins fight.

Edit: forgot to mention equipment. Shadow reaper, void cowl, magi, nightshade nostrum, butterflies.

[Debruh]

2 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

By the way, I managed to kill Armored Bearger without player tag while keeping Abigail alive and outside of flower all the time (shadow affinity). Time to search for software and record. Shadow affinity is not necessary, but it makes things faster.

Basically so long as one keeps Abigail at the opposite side of boss and attacks until the very last moment, Armored Bearger targets Wendy. The first attack boss does is ground pound; to dodge that Abigail needs to be further than Wendy and Wendy needs to bait it. Then one can murder butterflies or something equivalent (I used 10 and it was overkill, 5 is just a bit too little), and before going into bear range one needs to send Abigail through bearger behind bearger, and as soon as possible follow and attack while also going behind bearger. Then one has to reposition oneself so Abigail is at the opposite direction and attack until the very last moment before dodge, otherwise bearger switches aggro on Abigail. Butt attack can be dodged by "escape command", however, make sure you are not in range as well, as you need to be on foot to stun the boss. Alternatively, once can let Abi tank this attack, but be sure to not be in range yourself for the same reason and to avoid bug that make Abi receive double damage if you both are hit. Then it's free punching phase, and right before it ends one has to send Abigail through boss and behind it and immediately attack before dodging ground pound. Rinse and repaet until boss is dead. It usually takes 2 stun cycle, and Abi has enough HP to withstand them. Even if she dies, you can resummon her during stun phase and proceed.

Fight either goes very quick and well, or it's a disaster when you are hit 3 times and Abi dies from collateral damage since she tries to follow you right into swipe. Still, I think with more practice I could make it more reliable, and such thing - 1 mistake being very punishing, but recovery being very doable even without elixirs - already exists in Fuelweaver and Twins fight.

I actually tried that fight, what I recommend is 

1) Use the murder action to get the buff. Then attack at get Abby away (rile her up too)

2) engage with armored bearger. Make sure to not stand next to Abby as to not get her in his aoe. Void cowl+ Scythe+Buffed Abby with the void elixir usually does enough damage to make him try to butt slam you.

3) dodge the butt slam and hit him as to knock him down. Spectral cure-all if you wanna do it safe. Go ham on the boss with Abby.

4) as he's getting up, use attack at to get Abby away, and hit him to make him aggro on you, get him sway from where he butt slammed in order to not get screwed over by the crater

5)repeat until he dies