Blessed Sisturn III is Way too Strong

[Yifei_]

Just now, Dingle said:

I killed bq in a real game yesterday. Used 0 healing due to Wendy's new stuff.

You didn't read what I wrote; I'm talking about the current version, not the beta version.
 

31 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

I just finished a fight of nightmare werepig, not on the beta version.

Of course, it's also possible that I didn't express myself clearly.
 

[Dingle]

Just now, Yifei_ said:

You didn't read what I wrote; I'm talking about the current version, not the beta version.
 

I did read what you wrote, above.

In live version, standard was using one cure all on BQ and a nightshade nostrum.

[Yifei_]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

In live version, standard was using one cure all on BQ and a nightshade nostrum.

Yes, compared to several other bosses like AF or CC, Abby faces the least survival pressure when facing BQ, but still requires Nightshade Nostrum to shorten the battle time or healing potions to ensure Abby's survival.
 

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Yifei_ said:

Yes, compared to several other bosses like AF or CC, Abby faces the least survival pressure when facing BQ, but still requires Nightshade Nostrum to shorten the battle time or healing potions to ensure Abby's survival.
 

Oh I see, was confused by them being on the same list.

She probably just needs a single nightshade now, which is really cheap. So definitely shouldn't be on the same list as cc and af.

[Yifei_]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

She probably just needs a single nightshade now, which is really cheap. So definitely shouldn't be on the same list as cc and af.

However, Nightmare Werepig has a significant margin for error even without any potions; why add this pig to the list? BQ is far more deserving.

[Pig Princess]

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

the real pressure comes from boss fights like BQ, AF, CC, and others.

Celestial Champion phase 3:

Ancient Fuelweaver (beta) 

Ancient Fuelweaver (before beta):

Bee Queen:

I myself don't even use animation cancelling, but 1 nightshade norlstrum and one spectral cure-all or nightshade nostrum and shadow sisterhood 3 are enough for Bee Queen from my own experience. It's been a while since I fought Ancient Fuelweaver as Wendy, but 5 spectral cure-alls at most was not expensive at all for endgame boss. By the way, you can even find guide how to reduce amount of spectral cure-alls on Lardee channel, it's not like he gatekeeps this knowledge. It's frustrating that chineese and english-speaking community have language and other barriers, but I don't believe nobody posted something similar on bilibili. Actually, large size of chineese community makes it more probable for great players to emerge. I've seen awesome videos with creative strategies on everything, and youtube sometimes feel like filial branch or something.

CC was possible before with weather pain and shield elixir, but even without Abigail Wendy on foot with enlightened crown has reasonable damage. Still, now with escape command even third phase which was the most problematic can be done with reasonable cost. First and second phases are no problem with vigor mortis (it's actually possible to do both phases with single vigor mortis without buff duration). 

Abigail survivability has always been fine in those battles, you just had to think about strategy (or search it). 

[Dingle]

3 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

However, Nightmare Werepig has a significant margin for error even without any potions; why add this pig to the list? BQ is far more deserving.

Don't need to convince me. The context is that he comes up a lot in people's lists as a hard fight for abby. Not that I agree with it.

3 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Celestial Champion phase 3:

Ancient Fuelweaver (beta) 

Ancient Fuelweaver (before beta):

Bee Queen:

I myself don't even use animation cancelling, but 1 nightshade norlstrum and one spectral cure-all or nightshade nostrum and shadow sisterhood 3 are enough for Bee Queen from my own experience. It's been a while since I fought Ancient Fuelweaver as Wendy, but 5 spectral cure-alls at most was not expensive at all for endgame boss. By the way, you can even find guide how to reduce amount of spectral cure-alls on Lardee channel, it's not like he gatekeeps this knowledge. It's frustrating that chineese and english-speaking community have language and other barriers, but I don't believe nobody posted something similar on bilibili. Actually, large size of chineese community makes it more probable for great players to emerge. I've seen awsome videos with creative strategies on everything, and youtube sometimes feel like filial branch or something.

CC was possible before with weather pain and shield elixir, but even without Abigail Wendy on foot with enlightened crown has reasonable damage. Still, now with escape command even third phase which was the most problematic can be done with reasonable cost. First and second phases are no problem with vigor mortis (it's actually possible to do both phases with single vigor mortis without buff duration). 

Abigail survivability has always been fine in those battles, you just had to think about strategy (or search it). 

Interesting to hear on bee queen, that you only need the murder command buff and nightshade.

I was using nightshade, lune blossoms, and bigspooks. The lune blossoms seemed overkill, I don't think abby ever got hit much.

[Pig Princess]

33 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

but still requires Nightshade Nostrum

And why is this the problem? I'll try to read earlier messages again, forgive me if I missed something in this constantly and rapidly updated topic

Edit: Ok, I don't understand what is the survival pressure, at least it seems that my understanding is vastly different than what is discussed here. Basic Abigail can't survive every boss encounter, but that is why elixirs were added back in 2020. I don't think 1 revenant restorative or 1 nightshade norstrum + 1 spectral cure-all are expensive, it's a boss fight after all. Even in case Ancient Fuelweaver the cost is basically 3 pipspooks and a few healing items. For endgame boss that is done solo it's ok price. And if one is willing to improve their skills and planning, it can be reduced to 1-2 spectral cure-alls or even 1 revenant restorative, even before beta. Now Abigail has "attack at" command and extra damage if you go for shadow sisterhood 3.

What is the point that is tried to be proven here? That Abigail is still incapable of joining the fight? Sorry, I'm not reading 16 pages again and all those heated arguements all over the place make it hard to remember who said what in specific thread. 

[Yifei_]

30 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

I myself don't even use animation cancelling, but 1 nightshade norlstrum and one spectral cure-all or nightshade nostrum and shadow sisterhood 3 are enough for Bee Queen from my own experience. It's been a while since I fought Ancient Fuelweaver as Wendy, but 5 spectral cure-alls at most was not expensive at all for endgame boss. By the way, you can even find guide how to reduce amount of spectral cure-alls on Lardee channel, it's not like he gatekeeps this knowledge. It's frustrating that chineese and english-speaking community have language and other barriers, but I don't believe nobody posted something similar on bilibili. Actually, large size of chineese community makes it more probable for great players to emerge. I've seen awesome videos with creative strategies on everything, and youtube sometimes feel like filial branch or something.

CC was possible before with weather pain and shield elixir, but even without Abigail Wendy on foot with enlightened crown has reasonable damage. Still, now with escape command even third phase which was the most problematic can be done with reasonable cost. First and second phases are no problem with vigor mortis (it's actually possible to do both phases with single vigor mortis without buff duration). 

Yes, there are many similar guides on Bilibili, such as this one.
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1se4y1L7Gn/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click&vd_source=f884ebc672791f945164ca8603a33ba8

I previously watched Lardee's 57-day speedrun guide on how to make Wendy S+ Tier, and I also shared it with my friends in China. The speedrun records in China are even faster, with videos showing that AF, CC, and other beatable bosses can be completed within 35 days. Of course, this may be related to specific rules.
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV11e411n7bp/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click&vd_source=f884ebc672791f945164ca8603a33ba8

I have defeated all the bosses in DST using Wendy in many of my solo playthroughs. I have systematically learned and practiced their strategies, whether riding beefalo or not, using pre-Rift or post-Rift equipment. Especially CC, DF, BQ, AG, Nightmare Werepig, I have fought them countless times for its loot. I have even studied the bosses in Uncompromising Mode. It’s not because I’m "unwilling to learn or study" that I want to improve Abby's survivability; specifically, the reasons should be these three points:

1. I want to have a larger margin for error. Previously, Lardee told me that pausing can simplify AF battles, and I accepted his advice, which indeed increased my success rate significantly. However, on public servers, I cannot pause, and even after practicing many times, I still cannot guarantee the same success rate as when I face Nightmare Werepig alone.
2. Compared to other characters, Wendy’s learning curve is too steep and too difficult. If you choose characters like Wigfird, Willow, Wolfgang, Wortox, Maxwell, etc., you’ll find that their margin for error and difficulty when facing AF and CC are lower than Wendy’s (of course, these character examples might not be the most accurate). I don’t want a new player to be repeatedly frustrated when playing Wendy and then realize that switching to another character makes things much easier.
3. I have a neutral stance on whether the "player tag" is appropriate or not. But what I clearly hope for is to enhance Abby’s survivability. There might be better ways to achieve this.

I believe that the view that Chinese players are "unwilling to learn or practice" is incorrect. This is a game, not learning or work. We hope to derive joy from investing an appropriate amount of practice, rather than having to invest huge amounts of time and energy to make progress. Don’t Starve has no upper limit; there are even videos on Bilibili of Wes completing Ancient Science with 1 HP in Eternal Winter, Eternal Night, and Eternal Rain start-ups. I don’t think adding a "player tag" makes Don’t Starve lose its limits and challenges; it just gives players more choices.

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1G64y1574S/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click

29 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

What is the point that is tried to be proven here? That Abigail is still incapable of joining the fight? Sorry, I'm not reading 16 pages again and all those heated arguements all over the place make it hard to remember who said what in specific thread. 

I'm just saying that Abby faces greater survival pressure when facing BQ than when facing Nightmare Werepig. Nightmare Werepig has a considerable margin for error without the need for any potions. Previously, someone equated Abby's survival pressure when facing Nightmare Werepig with that against CC and AF, which I find incredible.

45 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Celestial Champion phase 3:

Ancient Fuelweaver (beta) 

Ancient Fuelweaver (before beta):

Bee Queen:

To be honest, a lot of what Lardee talks about in his videos is similar to some of the videos on Bilibili. The most I've gained from his videos is an improvement in my English listening skills; his commentary pace is very suitable for practicing listening...

[aidankocherhans]

On 12/16/2024 at 3:44 AM, Fitzee said:

So you were only half-listening? Cool.

I guess I got my answer, nonetheless. 

They answered your question? What on earth are you angry about?

[aidankocherhans]

22 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

...Right? It was only after the skill tree that Waremoose was able to regenerate on its own, so it should have been a major weakness before that...
https://dontstarve.fandom.com/wiki/Woodie/Don't_Starve_Together?oldid=526901

Also, I agree that Wareform's can't use items is amajor weakness, however, I think the items you want to use when you're Waremoose are items that recover health. If Weremoose's natural health recovery eliminated the idle health penalty, didn't the skill tree alleviate that weakness to some extent? Just like the player tag this time. Abigail still dies even with the player tag.

When the skill tree was first released, the weremoose healing was greatly overtuned, making combat unreasonably easy (much like sisturn 3) 

Now it is a much slower heal, so while it makes the form more forgiving in general, it rewards skilled play the most by giving you more longevity if you avoid taking too many hits

[Lardee]

5 hours ago, RiceMilk said:

Whether Abigail can survive is not a suitable criterion for judgment. The use of Abigail to give Wendy an advantage/convenience in combat compared to ordinary characters is the criterion for judgment. It is obvious that Wendy cannot reach the level of other combat characters in this matter now.

This is objectively untrue. Wendy can now deal Wolfgang DPS while retaining AoE. That's an advantage/convenience beyond the vast majority of characters. If you want to argue Abigail doesn't give Wendy an advantage/convenience, then I want you to give me a list of bosses that this applies to.

Quote

Combat characters do not require more complex maintenance than regular characters. They often defeat bosses faster and suffer less damage compared to other characters.

There's nothing that says combat characters require more complex maintenance than regular characters. That's just you injecting your subjective opinion. The only thing that combat characters need are advantages over regular characters. 

Wendy can defeat bosses faster and suffers less damage compared to other characters.  She has Wolfgang DPS plus AoE.

 

Quote

Wendy was not a highly skilled character from the beginning, and it was the high numerical value of the new boss that made Abigail vulnerable, which is itself a problem. If you insist that Wendy is a highly skilled character, you can cast a vote, and I don't want to discuss this.

Wendy wasn't a highly skilled character in regards to basic survival. She was a higher skilled character in regards to beating some bosses.  All the raid bosses except CC were out when Wendy got her rework in 2020 so the high numerical value argument makes no sense.

Quote

If you think there is no balance and no need for comparison, then you have no objective standard for judging what abilities a character should receive. It's better to adopt my standards than to have no standards: reaching the abilities and portability of other combat characters, at least this is fair and referenced.

I never made an argument about what abilities Wendy should receive. I made an argument for what weaknesses shouldn't be taken away. My standards are far more objective than yours: character weaknesses shouldn't be removed unless absolutely necessary because weaknesses, like strengths, are what make character gameplay unique. Klei has already given Wendy players multiple high and low skilled solutions to work around her weakness.  If you don't like these solutions, propose more that do not remove her weakness. 

[CremeLover]

Really appreciate your insight @RussoDaFederal, however, you got a few variables incorrect.

22 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Let's also not use a specific weapon, and calculate it as a function y = f(x), y being the dps and x being the weapon damage. But! Planar damage will be excluded since it is not affected by multipliers. Which means late game dps somewhat converges among all characters. The calculation is pretty simple: character modifier * 2 (attacks twice per second) * x (weapon damage). Wendy's dps is slightly trickier to calculate because there are 2 extra modifiers: Abi's vex general effect (1.1) and Abi's vex for Wendy exclusively (1.4). They stack, turning Wendy's 0.75 multiplier into 0.75 * 1.4 * 1.1 = 1.155. I'm also going to consider Abi's night damage with and without the vex elixir and the murder modifier. The vex elixir, if I recall correctly, increases the 1.1 vex modifier to 1.2. And murder doubles Abi's damage.

Wes: 0.75 * 2 * x = 1.5x
Wilson: 1 * 2 * x = 2x
Wolfgang: 2 * 2 * x = 4x
Wendy: 0.75 * 1.4 * 1.1 * 2 * x + 40 = 2.31x + 40
Wendy w/ vex & murder: 0.75 * 1.4 * 1.2 * 2 * x + 80 = 2.52x + 80

After checking tuning.lua, the values I get are as following

ABIGAIL_VEX_DURATION = 2,
ABIGAIL_VEX_DAMAGE_MOD = 1.1,
ABIGAIL_VEX_GHOSTLYFRIEND_DAMAGE_MOD = 1.4,

ABIGAIL_SHADOW_VEX_DAMAGE_MOD = 1.3,
ABIGAIL_SHADOW_VEX_GHOSTLYFRIEND_DAMAGE_MOD = 1.6,

ABIGAIL_DMG_PERIOD = 1.5,

So the elixir changes are 1.3 and 1.6 for Wendy, not 1.2 and default 1.4.

22 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Wendy's dps with a beefalo and base Abi, assuming the beefalo is ornery with a nightmare saddle (because there's no reason to go lower): 34 * 2 * 1.4 * 1.1 + 40 + 18 * 2 (18 planar damage) = 180.72.

Ornery beefalo has 50 dps base, 34 is the value of no tendency beefalo, so damage formula would be 50*2*1.4*1.1+40+18*2 = 230

22 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

So Wendy with a beefalo easily surpasses Wolfgang with buffs (murder and vex elixir). Nightmare saddle dps with all the buffs is 230.24.

When I run the formula with the updated variables, I get 50×2×1,6×1,3+80+18×2=324.

22 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Wendy w/ vex & murder: 0.75 * 1.4 * 1.2 * 2 * x + 80 = 2.52x + 80

So, in the end, I believe the current formula for Wendy damage using your scheme is this one instead.
Wendy w/ vex & murder: 0.75 * 1.6 * 1.3 * 2 * x + 80 = 3.12x + 87

[Lardee]

16 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

So the elixir changes are 1.3 and 1.6 for Wendy, not 1.2 and default 1.4.

Default Abigail is 1.4 for Wendy multiplied by 1.1 for everything else.

[CremeLover]

15 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Default Abigail is 1.4 for Wendy multiplied by 1.1 for everything else.

Correct, I even posted the actual values as declared in tunings.lua. I was referring to the post I was responding to, as those were the values given by RussoDaFederal.

[Debruh]

39 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

, after checking the code, there seems to be a bug (?) in the Abigail calculation formula, since default damage formula for Abigail is (Base Damage/Vex Modifier). In other words, Abigail does 15 damage, and then gets multiplied by the 1.1 vex debuff, and then divided by the 1.1 debuff again, so it stays as 15 damage in daytime, but the damage formula doesn't take into account the extra vex damage from the Shadow Elixir, so after running the formula and testing, I believe what is going on is 15*1.3=19.5 then 19.5/1.1=17.72 which gets rounded up to 17 for deerclops (and 18 for spiders for some reason).

So, not sure if intended, but Abigail does with both Shadow form active and Shadow Elixir
32/49/87
So if this is confirmed not to be a bug her night damage formula would be
40*1.3/1.1+40 (planar) = 87.27

According to a post in the bug tracker, this seems to be a bug rhat was labeled as fixed

[RussoDaFederal]

30 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

Really appreciate your insight @RussoDaFederal, however, you got a few variables incorrect.

After checking tuning.lua, the values I get are as following

ABIGAIL_VEX_DURATION = 2,
ABIGAIL_VEX_DAMAGE_MOD = 1.1,
ABIGAIL_VEX_GHOSTLYFRIEND_DAMAGE_MOD = 1.4,

ABIGAIL_SHADOW_VEX_DAMAGE_MOD = 1.3,
ABIGAIL_SHADOW_VEX_GHOSTLYFRIEND_DAMAGE_MOD = 1.6,

ABIGAIL_DMG_PERIOD = 1.5,

So the elixir changes are 1.3 and 1.6 for Wendy, not 1.2 and default 1.4.

Also, after checking the code, there seems to be a bug (?) in the Abigail calculation formula, since default damage formula for Abigail is (Base Damage/Vex Modifier). In other words, Abigail does 15 damage, and then gets multiplied by the 1.1 vex debuff, and then divided by the 1.1 debuff again, so it stays as 15 damage in daytime, but the damage formula doesn't take into account the extra vex damage from the Shadow Elixir, so after running the formula and testing, I believe what is going on is 15*1.3=19.5 then 19.5/1.1=17.72 which gets rounded up to 17 for deerclops (and 18 for spiders for some reason).

So, not sure if intended, but Abigail does with both Shadow form active and Shadow Elixir
32/49/87
So if this is confirmed not to be a bug her night damage formula would be
40*1.3/1.1+40 (planar) = 87.27

Ornery beefalo has 50 dps base, 34 is the value of no tendency beefalo, so damage formula would be 50*2*1.4*1.1+40+18*2 = 230

When I run the formula with the updated variables, I get 50×2×1,6×1,3+87+18×2=331. Would be 324 instead if the elixir interaction mentioned above is indeed unintended.

So, in the end, I believe the current formula for Wendy damage using your scheme is this one instead.
Wendy w/ vex & murder: 0.75 * 1.6 * 1.3 * 2 * x + 80 = 3.12x + 87

Thank you for your correction! I didn't check those values on the game files, I just estimated them from around half an hour of sandbox testing. The beefalo damage was indeed wrong, I got default and ornery damage confused. So in the end, beefalo damage is even stronger than I anticipated. And vex damage (buffed by elixir) is also stronger. I'm not gonna ask for shadow Abi nerfs (wouldn't mind it though), but this clearly shows that gestalt Abi loses in damage by a landslide. She should get her previous survivability back, or else no one has any reason to pick her. Something should be done to prevent afk farming, but aside from that she was great in the last version. Plus, this also shows that beefalo damage should definitely be fixed. Not nerfed, fixed. If it's the beefalo doing all the damage, not Wendy, cut the 1.4 damage multiplier. And before anyone complains "oh but think of the casuals" no casual player tames a beefalo. It takes so much effort that the player is more than capable of fighting without the beefalo at that point.

[Dingle]

5 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Thank you for your correction! I didn't check those values on the game files, I just estimated them from around half an hour of sandbox testing. The beefalo damage was indeed wrong, I got default and ornery damage confused. So in the end, beefalo damage is even stronger than I anticipated. And vex damage (buffed by elixir) is also stronger. I'm not gonna ask for shadow Abi nerfs (wouldn't mind it though), but this clearly shows that gestalt Abi loses in damage by a landslide. She should get her previous survivability back, or else no one has any reason to pick her. Something should be done to prevent afk farming, but aside from that she was great in the last version. Plus, this also shows that beefalo damage should definitely be fixed. Not nerfed, fixed. If it's the beefalo doing all the damage, not Wendy, cut the 1.4 damage multiplier. And before anyone complains "oh but think of the casuals" no casual player tames a beefalo. It takes so much effort that the player is more than capable of fighting without the beefalo at that point.

Casual players both exist and don't exist, or should be catered to or not catered to, in each "buff Wendy" argument, depending on whim at that exact moment.

And by "whim" I mean if they are losing the argument, it changes.

Schrodinger's casual.

[Debruh]

8 minutes ago, Debruh said:

According to a post in the bug tracker, this seems to be a bug rhat was labeled as fixed

I thinl this one

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/klei-bug-tracker/dont-starve-together-beta-branch/old-vex-value-is-still-used-when-calculating-cursed-vexation-damage-r47407/

[CremeLover]

9 minutes ago, Debruh said:

According to a post in the bug tracker, this seems to be a bug rhat was labeled as fixed

Correct, it should go live in the next hotfix, so around January. I'll edit the post to account for it. Many Thx!

9 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Not nerfed, fixed. If it's the beefalo doing all the damage, not Wendy, cut the 1.4 damage multiplier. And before anyone complains "oh but think of the casuals" no casual player tames a beefalo. It takes so much effort that the player is more than capable of fighting without the beefalo at that point.

This was an interaction that did exist since the Vex was introduced, since mounted Beefalo is counted as a Wendy, and gets the Wendy buff as well. I was never in favor of this interaction, but it has been a thing for 4 years, so there might be some resistance to change it.

[Debruh]

4 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Casual players both exist and don't exist, or should be catered to or not catered to, in each "buff Wendy" argument, depending on whim at that exact moment.

And by "whim" I mean if they are losing the argument, it changes.

Schrodinger's casual.

Also the weird assumption that everyone against the player tag and other stuff is somehow a speedrunner that completes the game by day 40 or something 

1 minute ago, CremeLover said:

This was an interaction that did exist since the Vex was introduced, since mounted Beefalo is counted as a Wendy, and gets the Wendy buff as well. I was never in favor of this interaction, but it has been a thing for 4 years, so there might be some resistance to change it

Apparently Wolfgang's speed boost also transfers to beefalo, from what I heard at least.

[SilverSpoon]

11 minutes ago, Dingle said:

if they are losing the argument

The emphasis on winning or losing arguments rather than improving the game is definitely not a good sign

"Casual players" is as vague as "Skill" or "Effort," but I think we have no choice but to accept it. There are as many degree as there are people.

[CremeLover]

17 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Apparently Wolfgang's speed boost also transfers to beefalo, from what I heard at least.

I'm not going to check right now but it could be. When you mount a Beefalo, the entity is consider a player, which means, it sucks some of the multipliers that affect the player in question while riding it.
For example, since a mounted beefalo is considered a player, it has a player tag and does the 50% damage reduction thing as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if Wolfgang's speed multiplier also got included in there

[Dingle]

Just now, CremeLover said:

I'm not going to check right now but it could be. When you mount a Beefalo, the entity is consider a player, which means, it sucks some of the multipliers that affect the player in question while riding it.
For example, since a mounted beefalo is considered a player, it has a player tag and does the 50% damage reduction thing as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if Wolfgang's speed multiplier also got included in there

I thought they got rid of that when they made it so mighty wolfgang no longer gets a runspeed bonus.

[Well-met]

19 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I thought they got rid of that when they made it so mighty wolfgang no longer gets a runspeed bonus.

I think they mean the leg-day wolfgang bonus, when he's not mighty or wimpy.