Blessed Sisturn III is Way too Strong

[Arcwell]

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

have you considered that this isnt mutually exclusive with shadow Abby?

Thats more planar defense and doubled dls from what was shown in the vid

No, the video already uses shadow Abby in both comparisons. You do not need to transform her to get the planar defense bonus.

You can observe this by noting the damage. In the crystal deerclops tests Abby takes 165 or 90 damage, which is consistent with (150 phys + 30 plan - 15 plan def) and (75 phys + 30 plan - 15 plan def) respectively.

27 minutes ago, QuitePositiveGC said:

That math ain't mathin', I don't think. 1.1*1.6 = 1.76, unless there's a dmg boost I'm missing, I don't think that true. Also, that 1.76 is only applicable while riding a Beefalo, which isn't a downside, just of note.

Either way, don't mind me being a bit pedantic, keep cookin'!

No, Nikki's calc is correct. Cursed Vexation also changes the 1.1x modifier to be 1.3x, in which case you get 2.08 (round up to 2.1 if you want) assuming beefalo.

[Koomin]

12 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

People saying this is too inefficient - have you considered that this isnt mutually exclusive with shadow Abby?

Thats more planar defense and doubled dls from what was shown in the vid

Players have a tendancy to optimise the fun out of the game. Pretty sure its a known effect, so devs should be trying to avoid broken stuff.

12 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

 

Shadow Abigail, player tag, Abigail healing potions, and Abigail instant healthy level 3 potions are all game breakingly strong but people are attempting to justify each in isolation as being not so bad.  They all realistically need to be toned down, whether they are replaced by something more fun or thematic or just number reductions.  Combined all together this is just stupidly strong.

Shadow Abigail -> replace vex damage increase with some other fun ability like Shadow vexed creatures being unable to knockback while on a beefalo or having their movespeed slowed.  Random Wolfgang damage is very out of place.

Player tag Abigail -> receive halved healing as well

Level 3 full health potion -> level 3 max health but with very little initial health (I'm not sure why this wasn't the initial design)

[HowlVoid]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I think if it stays the form should require pure brilliance to maintain or at least use.

A blossom+pure brilliance, yeah i can see that.

[DegenerateFurry]

8 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Players have a tendancy to optimise the fun out of the game. Pretty sure its a known effect, so devs should be trying to avoid broken stuff.

 Or maybe they should just learn some self-control for once and stop expecting the devs to nerf everything that the rest of players are happy with just so that the top 1% of players can't ruin things for themselves? 

Warly can actually get by with his downside through letting himself nearly start starving between bites of Meaty Stew every couple days. So, what, am I going to play the chef character and keep myself on the edge of starvation just because it's the most efficient way to keep him fed? No. I'm still gonna go out of my way to have a varied diet and cook obscure dishes because it's fun, even if it's not optimal. 

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

 Or maybe they should just learn some self-control for once and stop expecting the devs to nerf everything that the rest of players are happy with just so that the top 1% of players can't ruin things for themselves? 

Warly can actually get by with his downside through letting himself nearly start starving between bites of Meaty Stew every couple days. So, what, am I going to play the chef character and keep myself on the edge of starvation just because it's the most efficient way to keep him fed? No. I'm still gonna go out of my way to have a varied diet and cook obscure dishes because it's fun, even if it's not optimal. 

I really want the devs to see this argument.

"Ok, I admit this thing is game breakingly overpowered. But players should simply have the willpower and self control to SIMPLY NOT spend 3 perk points on it."

Amazing.

Checkmate, Klei!

[HowlVoid]

1 minute ago, DegenerateFurry said:

 Or maybe they should just learn some self-control for once and stop expecting the devs to nerf everything that the rest of players are happy with just so that the top 1% of players can't ruin things for themselves? 

Warly can actually get by with his downside through letting himself nearly start starving between bites of Meaty Stew every couple days. So, what, am I going to play the chef character and keep myself on the edge of starvation just because it's the most efficient way to keep him fed? No. I'm still gonna go out of my way to have a varied diet and cook obscure dishes because it's fun, even if it's not optimal. 

That's really a doubled edged sword cause you're also saying "people should play like me and they'll have more fun".

For development items really should be balanced around what the most optimized situation is but also how good are the items in a vacuum.

They were already good in a vacuum, it's the optimization that needs more balance. It's why things like cooldowns, limits, and dimishing returns exist. So you can limit that top half without hurting the bottom half.

[DegenerateFurry]

3 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I really want the devs to see this argument.

"Ok, I admit this thing is game breakingly overpowered. But players should simply have the willpower and self control to SIMPLY NOT spend 3 perk points on it."

Amazing.

Checkmate, Klei!

Have you ever heard of a character called Wolfgang?

[Nikki Darks]

5 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

That's really a doubled edged sword cause you're also saying "people should play like me and they'll have more fun".

For development items really should be balanced around what the most optimized situation is but also how good are the items in a vacuum.

They were already good in a vacuum, it's the optimization that needs more balance. It's why things like cooldowns, limits, and dimishing returns exist. So you can limit that top half without hurting the bottom half.

Very much this. 

The game being balanced creates a middleground for everyone.

A game being harder or easier goes to the extremes.

[Koomin]

5 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Have you ever heard of a character called Wolfgang?

As covered above, this is Wolgang's main perk and Shadow Wendy outdoes it pretty quickly.  Not sure where you're going with this.

[Xplan]

2 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

That's really a doubled edged sword cause you're also saying "people should play like me and they'll have more fun".

For development items really should be balanced around what the most optimized situation is but also how good are the items in a vacuum.

They were already good in a vacuum, it's the optimization that needs more balance. It's why things like cooldowns, limits, and dimishing returns exist. So you can limit that top half without hurting the bottom half.

Everyone can decide how to play the game. If the skill is OP, it won't make a change as long as you ignore it. Nerfing it only discourages those who want to make good use of the skill.

[Dingle]

8 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Have you ever heard of a character called Wolfgang?

Yeah! I think Wendy may do more damage than him now.

[Well-met]

2 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Not sure where you're going with this.

They're stuck in 2016 when wolf was considered the god of dst.

[aidankocherhans]

30 minutes ago, cyjs said:

So many people still think there is a problem, so I think there is a problem with the skill tree itself. Why can't we redo Wendy's skill tree?

Spoiler

 

How many more months do you want this beta to take? How will they ever make you content?

[DegenerateFurry]

4 minutes ago, Koomin said:

As covered above, this is Wolfgang's main perk and Shadow Wendy outdoes it pretty quickly.  Not sure where you're going with this.

Shadow Abigail doesn't outdo Wolfgang with a similar amount of preparation by any means. Wolfgang can do 1600+ DPS with the right perks and gear. 

[aidankocherhans]

31 minutes ago, Koomin said:

The player tag is so overpowered that no one will choose the other options that are more fun -> "it is clear that we just make the other options also all overpowered now".  I really don't understand why making a character way too strong is fun for people playing that character.

 

And there's really no way they could make team spirit comparable anyway 

[Well-met]

2 minutes ago, Xplan said:

Everyone can decide how to play the game. If the skill is OP, it won't make a change as long as you ignore it. Nerfing it only discourages those who want to make good use of the skill.

this isn't how videogame design works. No ordinary person will suffer a task needlessly if the answer to their woes is right there in their face.

The only exception is people deliberately playing gimped/limited challenges.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, DegenerateFurry said:

Shadow Abigail doesn't outdo Wolfgang with a similar amount of preparation by any means. Wolfgang can do 1600+ DPS with the right perks and gear. 

Considering the amount of utility, raw power, and aoe dps of Wendy she's definitely a overall stronger character than Wolfgang atm.

[Well-met]

1 minute ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Shadow Abigail doesn't outdo Wolfgang with a similar amount of preparation by any means. Wolfgang can do 1600+ DPS with the right perks and gear. 

most of which is done via swapping to warly, making the whole point redundant.

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, Xplan said:

Everyone can decide how to play the game. If the skill is OP, it won't make a change as long as you ignore it. Nerfing it only discourages those who want to make good use of the skill.

This is line of logic is like adding a instant kill button in the game without being the server admin and saying just look the other way.

[WenericMember]

30 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

And it wasn't done in the form of Team Spirit?

Perhaps Blessed Sisturn III is a temporary means of giving Abigail reliable survivability until they finally figure out how to improve Team Spirit?

One can hope so

[DegenerateFurry]

32 minutes ago, Koomin said:

The player tag is so overpowered that no one will choose the other options that are more fun -> "it is clear that we just make the other options also all overpowered now".  I really don't understand why making a character way too strong is fun for people playing that character.

 

It's not overpowered, it's basically the only way they can make Wendy actually be what people want her to be: a character who fights alongside a summon (her sister) and is weaker on her own. AoE bosses annihilate Abigail without her getting any kind of protection like this. 

If they want to make it an actual choice between receiving the same amount of damage as a player or using commands to make Abi kite, they need to at least halve the cooldown on commands and make the command animation instant for the combat-related Team Spirit perks. Honestly, an ideal situation with those would be getting hotkeys so we don't have to even stop attacking to command Abigail, but that's probably not going to happen. 

2 minutes ago, Well-met said:

most of which is done via swapping to Warly, making the whole point redundant.

Abigail can't be buffed by Warly.

[Xplan]

Just now, Well-met said:

this isn't how videogame design works. No ordinary person will suffer a task needlessly if the answer to their woes is right there in their face.

The only exception is people deliberately playing gimped/limited challenges.

Oh, i see.

So, you still need blessed sisturn to help Abi to survive. I thought you were so splendid that you and your Abi won't get any hurt while fighting any of the Giants.

You don't really need the powerful skill, do you? Let's try revenge ghost.

[Well-met]

4 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Abigail can't be buffed by Warly.

A little bit of reading comprehension will reveal that my reply went toward your wolfgang claim.

2 minutes ago, Xplan said:

Oh, i see.

So, you still need blessed sisturn to help Abi to survive. I thought you were so splendid that you and your Abi won't get any hurt while fighting any of the Giants.

You don't really need the powerful skill, do you? Let's try revenge ghost.

I have 0 idea what you're talking about or why you put words I've never said in my mouth.

[Dingle]

3 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

 

Abigail can't be buffed by Warly.

Wendy on a beefalo can, as an aside.

I also love how you're simulataneously saying Wolfgang needs less prep than Wendy, when you're now bringing up stuff like growing chili peppers, farming voltgoats, switching to Warly to make voltgoat jelly, having it rain...

I hope you start talking about spider gland farming again. Still my favorite goofy, pointless derail of yours so far.

[DegenerateFurry]

3 minutes ago, Well-met said:

A little bit of reading comprehension will reveal that my reply went toward your wolfgang claim.

Yeah, I know you're talking about Wolfgang being buffed by Warly. I am pointing out that Abigail can't be buffed by Warly, which means that her potential is far lower than his.