Blessed Sisturn III is Way too Strong

[Jakepeng99]

11 hours ago, Arcwell said:

Ugh.

I just wanted from Wendy's skill tree to not have to rely on potions. I was very happy when Blessed Sisturn was changed because Abby finally got the survivability not tied to healing that I always wanted her to have. Instead, the argument I keep getting met with now is that Abigail should be even more reliant on potions, that they should be expected to a point where people who don't use them should not even be considered. 

You can think whatever you want about the skill, I just wanted an alternative to spectral cure-all. Seeing everyone claim the skill is broken because of spectral cure-all is infuriating to me.

She has to rely on potions it’s the whole point.

 

its like complaining that you need healing and armour for boss battles.

 

 

[thesooz9000]

Tanking bosses with potions without the blessed sisturn III isn't even that hard, since you get so much morning glory now that you can easily amass a ton of spectral cure-all's , especially with being able to relocate graves and beequeen being a easy solo for wendy.

plz just make sisturn work both in caves and surface like merm king tho...

[SilverSpoon]

27 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

She has to rely on potions it’s the whole point.

 

its like complaining that you need healing and armour for boss battles.

Before the player tag, Abigail was difficult to survive in boss battles unless she was always Spectral Cure-All filled, even if you neglected Wendy's control and  worked hard to control Abigail.

Now Abigail has enough defense to tank bosses if you always keep her Spectral Cure-All filled.

And if the player controls Abigail properly, they can save Spectral Cure-All and give her the effects of other elixirs at the same time.

Those who say that "Abigail doesn't need a player tag" can save 3 skill tree points and show off their incredible skills.

In conclusion, it's well-balanced.

[Bumber64]

16 hours ago, Arcwell said:

If people want to spam healing to keep Abby alive, I think they should be able to. You can already keep yourself alive by spamming pierogi.

You get frozen solid if you do this with deerclops. Abi doesn't freeze. Now Wendy and Abi can both smack their shared birthday pinata together.

12 hours ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

Abby has no way to survive in any boss battle.

Blatant lies.

[Jakepeng99]

14 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Spider glands only heal 8 HP each, which is borderline useless, and I'd rather kill butterflies if it's not winter since those are at least faster to eat. You need rocks and ash to make them do half as much as a pierogi, you need twice the amount of monster meat to make eggs for pierogis, and you need vegetables, so no, healing isn't even free just on a conceptual level. Easier to get as some characters? Sure, but not free. 

Wolfgang just smacks, runs, and repeats until all the spiders are dead. Infinite spider glands!

Weremoose charges through them a couple times and takes out a huge group of them. Infinite spider glands once he turns back and monster meat he needs to transform again!

Webber goes to a place with a bunch of spider dens and starts a civil war. Infinite spider glands and food he can eat raw!

Winona sets up some catapults and puts them near spiders. Infinite spider glands! 

Willow does her funny fire magic. Bam, "infinite free healing"!

The only difference here is that Woodie and Winona actually have to give up something (Woodie needs to eat after turning back, Winona needs time to set up catapults) before they have kill as many spiders as you want with basically zero risk or effort-capabilities. Wendy doesn't have to give up anything because AoE trash clear is her thing.

Took a step into insanity with this one,

[Grove]

Just now, Jakepeng99 said:

Took a step into insanity with this one,

Considering a lot of the arguments here are the same, we're experiencing the definition of insanity 

[YuRinshue]

Just like I replied to you in another post, I will reply again here to address the shortsighted part of your statement.
Votox can use his skill tree to eliminate the label of being attacked by neutral creatures, or offset his inability to carry too many souls.
Winona can use her skill tree to accurately command and transport her bulky and disobedient equipment in a portable manner.
Woody can use his skill tree to counteract the impact of a full moon and eliminate the state decline caused by using skills. At the same time, he solves the problem of insufficient defense ability and lack of physical damage in the Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift environment.
Vila can use her skill tree to create dwarf stars and absorb flames to counteract the cold, and even prevent spoils from being burned.
And Wendy's player tag was her first attempt to alleviate her shortcomings, whether it was in terms of consumption points (requiring at least 3 points), the degree of resolution compared to each character mentioned above (Wendy only alleviates rather than resolves), or the convenience level (requiring specialized collection of a non daily item). The solutions are far inferior to those of other characters, so I don't think this change is unacceptable.

[Dingle]

30 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

Just like I replied to you in another post, I will reply again here to address the shortsighted part of your statement.
Votox can use his skill tree to eliminate the label of being attacked by neutral creatures, or offset his inability to carry too many souls.
Winona can use her skill tree to accurately command and transport her bulky and disobedient equipment in a portable manner.
Woody can use his skill tree to counteract the impact of a full moon and eliminate the state decline caused by using skills. At the same time, he solves the problem of insufficient defense ability and lack of physical damage in the Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift environment.
Vila can use her skill tree to create dwarf stars and absorb flames to counteract the cold, and even prevent spoils from being burned.
And Wendy's player tag was her first attempt to alleviate her shortcomings, whether it was in terms of consumption points (requiring at least 3 points), the degree of resolution compared to each character mentioned above (Wendy only alleviates rather than resolves), or the convenience level (requiring specialized collection of a non daily item). The solutions are far inferior to those of other characters, so I don't think this change is unacceptable.

Reading this and then comparing Wortox not getting scratched by catcoons to this video in the OP:

 

[Lardee]

36 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

Just like I replied to you in another post, I will reply again here to address the shortsighted part of your statement.
Votox can use his skill tree to eliminate the label of being attacked by neutral creatures, or offset his inability to carry too many souls.
Winona can use her skill tree to accurately command and transport her bulky and disobedient equipment in a portable manner.
Woody can use his skill tree to counteract the impact of a full moon and eliminate the state decline caused by using skills. At the same time, he solves the problem of insufficient defense ability and lack of physical damage in the Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift environment.
Vila can use her skill tree to create dwarf stars and absorb flames to counteract the cold, and even prevent spoils from being burned.
And Wendy's player tag was her first attempt to alleviate her shortcomings, whether it was in terms of consumption points (requiring at least 3 points), the degree of resolution compared to each character mentioned above (Wendy only alleviates rather than resolves), or the convenience level (requiring specialized collection of a non daily item). The solutions are far inferior to those of other characters, so I don't think this change is unacceptable.

Wortox's skill tree didn't simply eliminate his neutral creature weakness. It removed it at the cost of making one of his other downsides more punishing. Plus wortox's main weakeness is that food is only half beneficial to him.

Winona didn't even have a weakness other than slower crafting speeds at low hunger and her skill tree made her base kit weaker.

Woodie's weakness removal was a necessary change due to the nature of moonstorms. When it came to his wereforms, their main weakness (inability to use items) was not touched.

Dwarf stars do not eliminate Willow's weakness anymore than lighting a tree on fire does. 

This is not true as there were already solutions to alleviating her survivability shortcomings: get better at the game or use Spectral Cure Alls.  Abigail is harder to manage than the downsides of other characters because she provides better upsides than those characters. That's called risk vs reward. If you want an Abigail that's 4x less risky, then she should be 4x less rewarding.

[Dingle]

12 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Wortox's skill tree didn't simply eliminate his neutral creature weakness. It removed it at the cost of making one of his other downsides more punishing. Plus wortox's main weakeness is that food is only half beneficial to him.

Winona didn't even have a weakness other than slower crafting speeds at low hunger and her skill tree made her base kit weaker.

Woodie's weakness removal was a necessary change due to the nature of moonstorms. When it came to his wereforms, their main weakness (inability to use items) was not touched.

Dwarf stars do not eliminate Willow's weakness anymore than lighting a tree on fire does. 

This is not true as there were already solutions to alleviating her survivability shortcomings: get better at the game or use Spectral Cure Alls.  Abigail is harder to manage than the downsides of other characters because she provides better upsides than those characters. That's called risk vs reward. If you want an Abigail that's 4x less risky, then she should be 4x less rewarding.

You can try to quash every nonsensical argument, if you want to. It won't work, they'll find more nonsense arguments. It also isn't really necessary.

Look at the state of the first page now. The defenders of Sisturn III know that its incredibly overpowered, despite not admitting it.

Otherwise, they wouldn't be talking about it THAT much. It took over all other discussion.

Congratulations on a very successful thread hahahaha.

[YuRinshue]

46 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Wortox's skill tree didn't simply eliminate his neutral creature weakness. It removed it at the cost of making one of his other downsides more punishing. Plus wortox's main weakeness is that food is only half beneficial to him.

Winona didn't even have a weakness other than slower crafting speeds at low hunger and her skill tree made her base kit weaker.

Woodie's weakness removal was a necessary change due to the nature of moonstorms. When it came to his wereforms, their main weakness (inability to use items) was not touched.

Dwarf stars do not eliminate Willow's weakness anymore than lighting a tree on fire does. 

This is not true as there were already solutions to alleviating her survivability shortcomings: get better at the game or use Spectral Cure Alls.  Abigail is harder to manage than the downsides of other characters because she provides better upsides than those characters. That's called risk vs reward. If you want an Abigail that's 4x less risky, then she should be 4x less rewarding.

Your frank and straightforward statement of these double standards makes me angry.
“ It removed it at the cost of making one of his other downsides more punishing”
Please carefully consider the reasoning behind this statement. Eliminating the weaknesses of neutral creatures does not take up any of their abilities before acquiring the skill tree. Will obtaining this benefit make his other shortcomings more severe? Or is it just keeping it as it is?
Even obtaining this benefit does not require consuming any of the 15 points in the skill tree, why?
Do you think his main weakness is half of the food? Of course that's possible, but if a problem arises, will this flaw affect him? This game is filled with endless food, and rotten food is extremely abundant in this game. What's even more incredible is that he can easily consume the souls he has collected to restore satiety and health. Oh? Do you want to speak rationally? The Good Kids branch can restore a great deal of rationality when reviving teammates without affecting their health. Bad kids passively cancel rational punishment, aren't all of these solved?
These "shortcomings" that he can easily solve with his skill tree only prove that your claim about Votox is obviously unfounded.
Does the skill tree make Winona's basic tools weaker??? Can't you even find any reasonable objections? The previous catapults were bulky and difficult to control, but now they have become flexible and multifunctional. Can't you see?
Your statement about Winona is completely unfounded.
“Woodie's weakness removal was a necessary change due to the nature of moonstorms.“
May I ask if you are unaware that unlocking this skill requires you to pass the monthly explosion?
The increased ability of new enemies after the Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift has made it difficult for elk and Abigail to keep up with the times. Why does Woodie's elk abilities have corresponding bonuses? Is Abigail just a player tag making you afraid? Or do you have no idea how much gain Woodie's skill tree provides? He has all the necessary content for aspect defense, aspect damage reduction, and aspect damage.
Unable to use tools for transformation, Wu Di gained the ability to summon tree men and easily summoned two individuals with 3750 health. The terrifying combat power of 187.5 damage. This is just one of the at least five major directional abilities he possesses.
Therefore, your statement about Woodie is completely unfounded.
Can dwarf stars eliminate weaknesses? You can use dwarf stars to ignore the impact of freezing attacks, I hope you won't be unaware. She just needs to place the 20 pieces of wood in her backpack on the ground, light them, and then extinguish them with a lighter. Repeat this action to ignore the entire winter. This is the power that the skill tree gives her, occupying only two skill points.
Finally, let's use your words to think about it. Abigail's survival ability is only a part of Wendy's shortcomings. Does the skill tree alleviate her 0.75 attack coefficient problem? Why can't this be satisfied?
Do you want risk and return to be equal? Why aren't the other characters? Are you using a skill tree to reinforce your weaknesses??? Thinking about what I said, this kind of conversation that seems to be educating immature people really makes me angry.

 

31 minutes ago, Dingle said:

You can try to quash every nonsensical argument, if you want to. It won't work, they'll find more nonsense arguments. It also isn't really necessary.

Look at the state of the first page now. The defenders of Sisturn III know that its incredibly overpowered, despite not admitting it.

Otherwise, they wouldn't be talking about it THAT much. It took over all other discussion.

Congratulations on a very successful thread hahahaha.

If not using your brain to think is the key to success, then your discussion with you is indeed successful.
No one denies the power of Sisturn III, but that is only powerful for Wendy, as it cannot change the status of other characters at all. We only care about whether this strength is necessary for Wendy, and crazily opposing a necessary help that will not affect anyone is what you are calling for now.
Why not take a look at how powerful Villo's skill tree has made her, given how much she cares about being strong? Is liking to make the weak even weaker the driving force behind your speech? Suspected of liking to bully and bully young people.

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, YuRinshue said:

Your frank and straightforward statement of these double standards makes me angry.
“ It removed it at the cost of making one of his other downsides more punishing”
Please carefully consider the reasoning behind this statement. Eliminating the weaknesses of neutral creatures does not take up any of their abilities before acquiring the skill tree. Will obtaining this benefit make his other shortcomings more severe? Or is it just keeping it as it is?
Even obtaining this benefit does not require consuming any of the 15 points in the skill tree, why?
Do you think his main weakness is half of the food? Of course that's possible, but if a problem arises, will this flaw affect him? This game is filled with endless food, and rotten food is extremely abundant in this game. What's even more incredible is that he can easily consume the souls he has collected to restore satiety and health. Oh? Do you want to speak rationally? The Good Kids branch can restore a great deal of rationality when reviving teammates without affecting their health. Bad kids passively cancel rational punishment, aren't all of these solved?
These "shortcomings" that he can easily solve with his skill tree only prove that your claim about Votox is obviously unfounded.

Eliminating neutral character hostility came at the cost of increasing the penalty for eating or losing souls. That's not just removing a weakness. And I opposed this change to Wortox.  Doesn't matter if Wortox's food penalty affects skilled players. Some characters have insignificant weaknesses.

Quote

Does the skill tree make Winona's basic tools weaker??? Can't you even find any reasonable objections? The previous catapults were bulky and difficult to control, but now they have become flexible and multifunctional. Can't you see?
Your statement about Winona is completely unfounded.

The skill tree increased Winona's strengths by letting her transport catapults. That is true. However it made her base kit weaker. She now had to spend skill points to get the same AoE with her catapults and she needs a remote in order to activate all of them at once. This is especially punishing for other characters who don't have a remote and are stuck with default catapult AoE.

Quote

“Woodie's weakness removal was a necessary change due to the nature of moonstorms.“
May I ask if you are unaware that unlocking this skill requires you to pass the monthly explosion?
The increased ability of new enemies after the Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift has made it difficult for elk and Abigail to keep up with the times. Why does Woodie's elk abilities have corresponding bonuses? Is Abigail just a player tag making you afraid? Or do you have no idea how much gain Woodie's skill tree provides? He has all the necessary content for aspect defense, aspect damage reduction, and aspect damage.
Unable to use tools for transformation, Wu Di gained the ability to summon tree men and easily summoned two individuals with 3750 health. The terrifying combat power of 187.5 damage. This is just one of the at least five major directional abilities he possesses.
Therefore, your statement about Woodie is completely unfounded.

Yes, I'm aware of the requirements for unlocking Woodie's lunar alignment.

Not sure what Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift enemies have to do with eliminating the downsides of Weremoose. Abigail does fine against Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift enemies except Deerclops and Bearger. If you're having trouble with those, just swap to Gestalt Abigail.

Not sure what Treeguards have to do with eliminating Woodie's downsides.

Quote

Can dwarf stars eliminate weaknesses? You can use dwarf stars to ignore the impact of freezing attacks, I hope you won't be unaware. She just needs to place the 20 pieces of wood in her backpack on the ground, light them, and then extinguish them with a lighter. Repeat this action to ignore the entire winter. This is the power that the skill tree gives her, occupying only two skill points.
Finally, let's use your words to think about it. Abigail's survival ability is only a part of Wendy's shortcomings. Does the skill tree alleviate her 0.75 attack coefficient problem? Why can't this be satisfied?
Do you want risk and return to be equal? Why aren't the other characters? Are you using a skill tree to reinforce your weaknesses??? Thinking about what I said, this kind of conversation that seems to be educating immature people really makes me angry.

Any character can ignore Winter with a thermal stone and a torch. Willow's downsides were non-existent to begin with.

Abigail being alive alleviates her 0.75 attack coefficient problem. Eliminating Abigail's ability to die eliminates Wendy's weakness. 

When it comes to removing a character's downsides, yes. The risk and return should be equal. 

Ngl, reading insults that have been google translated from Chinese to English is pretty funny.

[Dingle]

27 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

Your frank and straightforward statement of these double standards makes me angry.
“ It removed it at the cost of making one of his other downsides more punishing”
Please carefully consider the reasoning behind this statement. Eliminating the weaknesses of neutral creatures does not take up any of their abilities before acquiring the skill tree. Will obtaining this benefit make his other shortcomings more severe? Or is it just keeping it as it is?
Even obtaining this benefit does not require consuming any of the 15 points in the skill tree, why?
Do you think his main weakness is half of the food? Of course that's possible, but if a problem arises, will this flaw affect him? This game is filled with endless food, and rotten food is extremely abundant in this game. What's even more incredible is that he can easily consume the souls he has collected to restore satiety and health. Oh? Do you want to speak rationally? The Good Kids branch can restore a great deal of rationality when reviving teammates without affecting their health. Bad kids passively cancel rational punishment, aren't all of these solved?
These "shortcomings" that he can easily solve with his skill tree only prove that your claim about Votox is obviously unfounded.
Does the skill tree make Winona's basic tools weaker??? Can't you even find any reasonable objections? The previous catapults were bulky and difficult to control, but now they have become flexible and multifunctional. Can't you see?
Your statement about Winona is completely unfounded.
“Woodie's weakness removal was a necessary change due to the nature of moonstorms.“
May I ask if you are unaware that unlocking this skill requires you to pass the monthly explosion?
The increased ability of new enemies after the Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift has made it difficult for elk and Abigail to keep up with the times. Why does Woodie's elk abilities have corresponding bonuses? Is Abigail just a player tag making you afraid? Or do you have no idea how much gain Woodie's skill tree provides? He has all the necessary content for aspect defense, aspect damage reduction, and aspect damage.
Unable to use tools for transformation, Wu Di gained the ability to summon tree men and easily summoned two individuals with 3750 health. The terrifying combat power of 187.5 damage. This is just one of the at least five major directional abilities he possesses.
Therefore, your statement about Woodie is completely unfounded.
Can dwarf stars eliminate weaknesses? You can use dwarf stars to ignore the impact of freezing attacks, I hope you won't be unaware. She just needs to place the 20 pieces of wood in her backpack on the ground, light them, and then extinguish them with a lighter. Repeat this action to ignore the entire winter. This is the power that the skill tree gives her, occupying only two skill points.
Finally, let's use your words to think about it. Abigail's survival ability is only a part of Wendy's shortcomings. Does the skill tree alleviate her 0.75 attack coefficient problem? Why can't this be satisfied?
Do you want risk and return to be equal? Why aren't the other characters? Are you using a skill tree to reinforce your weaknesses??? Thinking about what I said, this kind of conversation that seems to be educating immature people really makes me angry.

 

If not using your brain to think is the key to success, then your discussion with you is indeed successful.
No one denies the power of Sisturn III, but that is only powerful for Wendy, as it cannot change the status of other characters at all. We only care about whether this strength is necessary for Wendy, and crazily opposing a necessary help that will not affect anyone is what you are calling for now.
Why not take a look at how powerful Villo's skill tree has made her, given how much she cares about being strong? Is liking to make the weak even weaker the driving force behind your speech? Suspected of liking to bully and bully young people.

Translation is really making your argument extra nonsensical.

Or maybe it's not, and it's translating a bunch of rambling nonsense perfectly.

I'm guessing it's the latter.

[YuRinshue]

5 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Translation is really making your argument extra nonsensical.

Or maybe it's not, and it's translating a bunch of rambling nonsense perfectly.

I'm guessing it's the latter.

Simple negation cannot prove that my words are nonsense, but it can prove that you cannot find a reason to maintain your own viewpoint. Simply believing that you have won is often the most magnificent circus without a thinker

[Dingle]

4 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

Simple negation cannot prove that my words are nonsense, but it can prove that you cannot find a reason to maintain your own viewpoint. Simply believing that you have won is often the most magnificent circus without a thinker

Do I need to prove to you, that your own words and thoughts are nonsense? What would convince you that you're wrong at this point? I'm willing to try if you set some kind of victory condition, I guess.

I was merely pointing out to others that your words make no sense.

[YuRinshue]

11 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Eliminating neutral character hostility came at the cost of increasing the penalty for eating or losing souls. That's not just removing a weakness. And I opposed this change to Wortox.  Doesn't matter if Wortox's food penalty affects skilled players. Some characters have insignificant weaknesses.

The weakness of being too mini is not worth discussing, it seems so. The power of Votox cannot bring any substantial cost, that is the truth.

16 minutes ago, Lardee said:

The skill tree increased Winona's strengths by letting her transport catapults. That is true. However it made her base kit weaker. She now had to spend skill points to get the same AoE with her catapults and she needs a remote in order to activate all of them at once. This is especially punishing for other characters who don't have a remote and are stuck with default catapult AoE.

What is the significance of discussing the skill tree and roles separately? They were already one. Turning some functions into skill tree points even means that you can choose to trade insignificant shortcomings for huge gains.

16 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Yes, I'm aware of the requirements for unlocking Woodie's lunar alignment.

Not sure what Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift enemies have to do with eliminating the downsides of Weremoose. Abigail does fine against Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift enemies except Deerclops and Bearger. If you're having trouble with those, just swap to Gestalt Abigail.

Not sure what Treeguards have to do with eliminating Woodie's downsides.

Since you know, it cannot be proven that this is necessary, it can only be proven that only one skill point is needed to solve the problem.

 

The original function of Deer Man was unable to provide reasonable output and defense capabilities to Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift enemies, and the skill tree smoothed out this drawback.

Firstly, Abigail lost almost all of her expected features in the world after the Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift. Even the most suitable Bright Eyed Frog had difficulty obtaining the skill tree for her.
And enemies like Deadly Brightshade, which can be seen everywhere in the base, can easily kill Abigail because she is too difficult to control and her team spirit is not enough to deal with problems.
Not to mention underground creatures like Parasitic Shadling and Lurking Nightmare, Abigail is even unable to make attacks.
Secondly, unfortunately, Gestalt Abigail's current abilities are not sufficient to effectively deal with Deerrolls and Bearger. The problems her AI can create make me feel hopeless in the test suit, and may not even be comparable to an ordinary Abigail. If you have expressed opinions that require testing to be obtained, I hope you have really tested them.

You think that not being able to use props during transformation battles is a disadvantage, and then the skill tree gave Wu Di a way to defeat strong enemies without transformation, which is association.

33 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Any character can ignore Winter with a thermal stone and a torch. Willow's downsides were non-existent to begin with.

Abigail being alive alleviates her 0.75 attack coefficient problem. Eliminating Abigail's ability to die eliminates Wendy's weakness. 

When it comes to removing a character's downsides, yes. The risk and return should be equal. 

Ngl, reading insults that have been google translated from Chinese to English is pretty funny.

You have confirmed for yourself that Vila has no flaws. Now using your logic to analyze, why does Vila's skill tree provide so many benefits? Even in the past, she was afraid of losing her spoils of war due to burning, but now what?

So, now the question arises, why is Wendy in your perception a character who uses the skill tree but is not allowed to alleviate weaknesses? Everyone's weaknesses above have been generously maintained, even resolved, and even created more powerful features. Why does Wendy have to be denied even a meager help?

It is indeed interesting, after all, I only give the arrogant, foolish, and dull the "greetings" they deserve

32 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Do I need to prove to you, that your own words and thoughts are nonsense? What would convince you that you're wrong at this point? I'm willing to try if you set some kind of victory condition, I guess.

I was merely pointing out to others that your words make no sense.

oh There is always only one way to prove something, which is to provide reasonable evidence to persuade others.
I need enough thinking and time to conduct practical testing and data comparison in order to prove my point of view. I hope you can do the same.
After all, I prefer rational and well founded discussions, rather than simply saying 'I feel too strong, I need to weaken'. This kind of response will only provoke my ridicule, because that kind of answer is incredibly arrogant and conceited.

[Dingle]

9 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

oh There is always only one way to prove something, which is to provide reasonable evidence to persuade others.
I need enough thinking and time to conduct practical testing and data comparison in order to prove my point of view. I hope you can do the same.
After all, I prefer rational and well founded discussions, rather than simply saying 'I feel too strong, I need to weaken'. This kind of response will only provoke my ridicule, because that kind of answer is incredibly arrogant and conceited.

Ok, sounds fair. I will also do so.

[Lardee]

5 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

The weakness of being too mini is not worth discussing, it seems so. The power of Votox cannot bring any substantial cost, that is the truth.

Yeah, but the skill tree didn't make his weaknesses insignificant. 

5 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

What is the significance of discussing the skill tree and roles separately? They were already one. Turning some functions into skill tree points even means that you can choose to trade insignificant shortcomings for huge gains.

Since you know, it cannot be proven that this is necessary, it can only be proven that only one skill point is needed to solve the problem.

Even if you view it that way, it still does at least affect Winona's utility to her team.

 

5 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

The original function of Deer Man was unable to provide reasonable output and defense capabilities to Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift enemies, and the skill tree smoothed out this drawback.

Firstly, Abigail lost almost all of her expected features in the world after the Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift. Even the most suitable Bright Eyed Frog had difficulty obtaining the skill tree for her.
And enemies like Deadly Brightshade, which can be seen everywhere in the base, can easily kill Abigail because she is too difficult to control and her team spirit is not enough to deal with problems.
Not to mention underground creatures like Parasitic Shadling and Lurking Nightmare, Abigail is even unable to make attacks.
Secondly, unfortunately, Gestalt Abigail's current abilities are not sufficient to effectively deal with Deerrolls and Bearger. The problems her AI can create make me feel hopeless in the test suit, and may not even be comparable to an ordinary Abigail. If you have expressed opinions that require testing to be obtained, I hope you have really tested them.

You think that not being able to use props during transformation battles is a disadvantage, and then the skill tree gave Wu Di a way to defeat strong enemies without transformation, which is association.

If you want to make Abigail more durable strictly against Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift enemies by giving her a bunch of planar defense, then I'm fine with that. That's not the same thing as quadrupeling her durability against all bosses.

Deadly Brightshades can definitely be defeated with Abigail, and giving her the player tag would not impact this at all.

I'm fine with Gestalt Abigail getting a massive buff like the player tag.

Wendy, like Woodie, also has ways to defeat strong enemies even before the skill tree. Many Woodie fights are significantly harder than Wendy fights and vice versa.

5 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

You have confirmed for yourself that Vila has no flaws. Now using your logic to analyze, why does Vila's skill tree provide so many benefits? Even in the past, she was afraid of losing her spoils of war due to burning, but now what?

So, now the question arises, why is Wendy in your perception a character who uses the skill tree but is not allowed to alleviate weaknesses? Everyone's weaknesses above have been generously maintained, even resolved, and even created more powerful features. Why does Wendy have to be denied even a meager help?

It is indeed interesting, after all, I only give the arrogant, foolish, and dull the "greetings" they deserve

Willow's flaws are insignificant, but that's not the fault of the skill tree. Being able to get loot from burning targets was a necessary evil. There's just no other way of letting Willow fight enemies with fire unless they do something about that.

Wendy's skill tree shouldn't alleviate her weaknesses unless absolutely necessary. So far all the reasons given are either "I don't want to use spectral cure all" or "I don't want to develop the skills to keep Abigail alive". Those aren't sufficient reasons.

She already has the ability to keep Abigail alive against every boss, even some that I thought were impossible like Armored Bearger.

[YuRinshue]

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

Yeah, but the skill tree didn't make his weaknesses insignificant. 

Can a skill tree make an already insignificant weakness even more insignificant? If this is the conclusion, you should give a reason why his skill tree is powerful, which is completely different from the risk and return you crave, isn't it? His risk obviously does not support his strength. If you need it, I can send you the video link of him opening Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift in 16 days.

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

Even if you view it that way, it still does at least affect Winona's utility to her team.

Consistent with the above content, gains and losses are clearly not equal.

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

If you want to make Abigail more durable strictly against Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift enemies by giving her a bunch of planar defense, then I'm fine with that. That's not the same thing as quadrupeling her durability against all bosses.

Deadly Brightshades can definitely be defeated with Abigail, and giving her the player tag would not impact this at all.

I'm fine with Gestalt Abigail getting a massive buff like the player tag.

Wendy, like Woodie, also has ways to defeat strong enemies even before the skill tree. Many Woodie fights are significantly harder than Wendy fights and vice versa.

To be honest, this profit is only 2 times instead of 4 times, which is a misleading viewpoint. It has been like this from the beginning, and this is also one of the reasons why I think you are extremely absurd.
The reason why you proposed 4 times is because you believe that her injury has increased to 0.5, which is equivalent to 2 times her health. At the same time, the healing effect has increased to 2 times because her injury has increased to 0.5, so you think 2 * 2 is 4 times, right?
Your logic seems to be saying that if my running speed doubles, then this track will be twice as fast for me, so the time it takes me to finish this track will be a quarter of what it used to be.
Do you feel that this may make people a bit unable to hold back their laughter

 

Deadly Brightshades are quite unstable when you use Abigail to eliminate them, as the crops are dense and her AOE damage can easily cause defensive attacks from other Deadly Brightshades. It's not always impossible, but when it's not, it's impossible.

 

Uh, since you're satisfied, what is your post opposing? I don't understand this.
I personally tested Gestalt Abigail's performance against Armored Bearer. To be honest, her AI is very dumb, and the 25% disengagement design is very easy to have a counterproductive effect. I don't think you have ever tested it. Her performance was not as good as using Shadow Abigail, and I only spent 10 butterflies to reinforce it.

Anyone can defeat all enemies without a skill tree, even WES, and this reason is hollow. In this game, there may only be the queen bee as the boss, and Wendy has a combat advantage over Woody. The rest will only be the opposite, using deer and tree figures will help you solve almost all problems.
The core issue is that there are more characters who can do better than Wendy, even if killing the queen bee is only a small part of their abilities. But the advantage of defeating the queen bee is Wendy's all.

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

Willow's flaws are insignificant, but that's not the fault of the skill tree. Being able to get loot from burning targets was a necessary evil. There's just no other way of letting Willow fight enemies with fire unless they do something about that.

Wendy's skill tree shouldn't alleviate her weaknesses unless absolutely necessary. So far all the reasons given are either "I don't want to use spectral cure all" or "I don't want to develop the skills to keep Abigail alive". Those aren't sufficient reasons.

She already has the ability to keep Abigail alive against every boss, even some that I thought were impossible like Armored Bearger.

You've started using double standards again. You know that as long as you put out the fire immediately, you can let Vila fight with fire, but everyone understands that this is too bad. The same goes for Wendy. Who wouldn't know that Wendy can achieve the same effect as other characters by requiring operations several times higher? But should this be? Without a player tag, losing Abigail in battle only requires one negligence. It is a fact that you have put in multiple efforts in exchange for dismal returns.
Do you know that retracting and summoning Abigail requires a very exaggerated and immovable animation? If you are attacked before the animation ends, you will need to execute this action again. It is extremely dangerous for any boss because they have many functions to inflict severe punishment on penalty players, especially after the Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift. Remote frozen ice cones and infinite continuous strikes+charges are very fast. In these battles, Abigail cannot fall, otherwise summoning Abigail's punishment is fatal. Can you understand this? This is as bad as making Vila need to put out the fire.
I have tested defeating Armored Bears myself using the Void suit, but I did not reply with any items.
Abigail using player tags, Shadow takes 1:20 seconds, Moon takes longer.
During this period, my operations must not have errors caused by being attacked and hit, and I need to use 4 shortcut keys to command and switch equipment. The fault tolerance rate is very low, but because of the player tag, Abigail's fault tolerance rate has increased. Therefore, on the premise that Abigail does not die, I can defeat the Armored Bear within 20 times. But you know what?
I only need 1:40 seconds to defeat Armored Bear with Wilson, and the amount of operation is much lower with much higher fault tolerance. Wilson is not even a combat special character.
If using Weigefude, I only need 1:17s to complete it, and it has super exaggerated fault tolerance and simple operation content.
If it were Wolfgang, it would only take 50 seconds and the operational requirements would be much lower than Wendy's.
Have you tested this before speaking? Do you still hope that player tags will no longer exist?

[Pig Princess]

21 hours ago, Dingle said:

Did you try against Lunar Bearger? That's what people are going to bring up right away.

I wonder what people would think after watching this video.

[饥荒联机测试服]｜ 阿比盖尔暗影分支 月熊测试 ｜ 更新版本日期：12.13日_网络游戏热门视频

Here player makes no effort to keep Abigail alive outside of using blessed sisturn 3 and applying spectral cure-alls. It must be noted that they fight boss themselves, but just like Wilson would, with no change in strategy when it comes to Wendy&Abigail. Is that what people consider "Wendy gameplay"? Isn't it just Wilson with extra dps? Why is that interesting? And I know some of the old fights are like this even without skill tree, but still with Dragonfly you at least have to play panflute before she enrages, keep in mind that Abigail can attack her too soon and wake up before last larvae is dead, and you can do Dragonfly without walls solo since Abigail adds just enough damage to kill larvae. Ancient Guardian is probably the closest fight to default strategy as the only thing one needs is extra speed and extra potion. But is it really the best that can be done with entirety of skill tree? Does existence of not very interesting fights justify lower standart of everything that comes after, does it justify absence of effort to do it interesting? Just another default fight, just with extra healing elixir and nothing else?

Edit: forgot to mention that compared to this fight fight without player tag requires more effort of managing Abigail. You can't really afford to let Abigail eat combo hits, for example, and you need to draw aggro of bearger more aggressively. You can't ignore positioning, you can't afford to just dash with Abigail without carefully picking moment and path. This is what makes fight unique, at least to me.

[aidankocherhans]

2 hours ago, YuRinshue said:

The reason why you proposed 4 times is because you believe that her injury has increased to 0.5, which is equivalent to 2 times her health. At the same time, the healing effect has increased to 2 times because her injury has increased to 0.5, so you think 2 * 2 is 4 times, right?
Your logic seems to be saying that if my running speed doubles, then this track will be twice as fast for me, so the time it takes me to finish this track will be a quarter of what it used to be.
Do you feel that this may make people a bit unable to hold back their laughter

You didn't watch the video on this post if you think this. Her defense is doubled, but her healing is the same, so effectively twice as much healing, plus the defense is more than twice the resilience

[Nikki Darks]

17 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

I will just say this: 

I'm really only in favor of the current Blessed Sisturn III because Team Spirit skills are impractical to use for me. If Blessed Sisturn III ends up being changed or removed, I wouldn't make a fuss about it, so long as either the Team Spirit branch improves, or Klei literally adds the ability to manually control Abigail yourself. 

You mean like swapping controls from Wendy to Abigail?

Like, you press a button and then you can move and attack, essentially play as Abigail at the cost of Wendy afking in a spot? Because that sounds very cool to me, ngl!

[YuRinshue]

26 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

You didn't watch the video on this post if you think this. Her defense is doubled, but her healing is the same, so effectively twice as much healing, plus the defense is more than twice the resilience

I am too aware of the source of your statement, but I just want to tell you that the ideas you are saying are simply misleading. I can tell you the simplest way to explain this problem. Abigail without player tags+1 bottle of elixir, equivalent to 1200 health points. After adding the player tag, Abigail's 1 bottle of elixir has a health of 1200 * 2=2400. The profit has only doubled compared to before, it's that simple. It's not just a conclusion lacking mathematical thinking that the drug effect has doubled due to damage reduction, resulting in a fourfold increase.

[aidankocherhans]

2 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

I am too aware of the source of your statement, Liangjia, but I just want to tell you that the ideas you are saying are simply misleading. I can tell you the simplest way to explain this problem. Abigail without player tags+1 bottle of elixir, equivalent to 1200 health points. After adding the player tag, Abigail's 1 bottle of elixir has a health of 1200 * 2=2400. The profit has only doubled compared to before, it's that simple. It's not just a conclusion lacking mathematical thinking that the drug effect has doubled due to damage reduction, resulting in a fourfold increase.

Please watch the video on the post again, then tell me she doesn't last more than twice as long with the tag

Regardless of the math, results are results 

[YuRinshue]

15 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Please watch the video on the post again, then tell me she doesn't last more than twice as long with the tag

Regardless of the math, results are results 

Unfortunately, I am unable to display this video here. But I can guess the content. I guess in the video, is it using Abigail who doesn't use the skill tree compared to Abigail who uses the skill tree to fight against the dimensional creatures of the faction? Answer me so that I can continue to reply.

1 hour ago, Pig Princess said:

I wonder what people would think after watching this video.

[饥荒联机测试服]｜ 阿比盖尔暗影分支 月熊测试 ｜ 更新版本日期：12.13日_网络游戏热门视频

Here player makes no effort to keep Abigail alive outside of using blessed sisturn 3 and applying spectral cure-alls. It must be noted that they fight boss themselves, but just like Wilson would, with no change in strategy when it comes to Wendy&Abigail. Is that what people consider "Wendy gameplay"? Isn't it just Wilson with extra dps? Why is that interesting? And I know some of the old fights are like this even without skill tree, but still with Dragonfly you at least have to play panflute before she enrages, keep in mind that Abigail can attack her too soon and wake up before last larvae is dead, and you can do Dragonfly without walls solo since Abigail adds just enough damage to kill larvae. Ancient Guardian is probably the closest fight to default strategy as the only thing one needs is extra speed and extra potion. But is it really the best that can be done with entirety of skill tree? Does existence of not very interesting fights justify lower standart of everything that comes after, does it justify absence of effort to do it interesting? Just another default fight, just with extra healing elixir and nothing else?

Edit: forgot to mention that compared to this fight fight without player tag requires more effort of managing Abigail. You can't really afford to let Abigail eat combo hits, for example, and you need to draw aggro of bearger more aggressively. You can't ignore positioning, you can't afford to just dash with Abigail without carefully picking moment and path. This is what makes fight unique, at least to me.

Wow, look what you've found. This is my video. If you read the comments section, you will know that I specifically mentioned that the effort spent on recording this video far exceeded my recording of using Wilson to kill Armored Bears, and the details that need to be paid attention to inside far exceeded what you see. I can easily use Wilson, but Wendy is actually difficult, bringing only 20 seconds faster profits than Wilson. And using Wolfgang, I only need 50 seconds and the operation amount is very low. In summary, using this video as a reason is actually my most perfect proof that the player tags are reasonable.