I don’t agree with the Sistern skills change

[hyoton123]

33 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Sorry, but for current stage there's no need for providing these evidence you're asked because Klei just made it, and it is what it is now.

You may try to go ask these evidence from Klei.

I mean, you are the one who offered to provide a video of you doing armored bearger. I don’t know what changed since then.

[Dingle]

Just now, Tranoze said:

is the video fighting style exactly the same as how tanished max did it? since you didnt give the link i cant know. Cuz he perfectly dodge armored bearger and inflict best dps at the same time.

She didn't fight perfectly though, Abby even died at the end.

I'll look for a perfect one real quick, anyway.

[Tranoze]

Just now, Dingle said:

She didn't fight perfectly though, Abby even died at the end.

I'll look for a perfect one real quick, anyway.

But for current patch wendy with shadow abi little bit stronger because new vex is planar... So let say perfect wendy will kill it in about 1:50 now.

[Mike23Ua]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm just going to say this if abigial gets a player tag then Bernie should get a player tag and so should Webber's spiders when he gets his skill tree especially Webber since spiders are considered a large part of his character as well.

I can’t say that I agree with this… Bernie is PART of Willows character, but he isn’t her ENTIRE Character, And.. Unlike Abigail, Bernie can be healed to full health with a single use of a Sewing kit, so one kit can heal him up multiple times- Unlike Wendys potions. Without Bernie Willow has Fire Mage Powers, Without Abigail Wendy has … drinkable Elixers?

As far as WEBBER goes, he needs heavy changes for sure.. but I imagine he’s going to get those changes with his skill tree and I imagine they’re going to appropriately be fitting of a character who is capable of hiring “Spiders” and here are a few ideas for that:

Hiring “Armored Cave spiders” can huddle around Webber and block incoming damage like body armor (yes even a few boss hits like a well timed Wigfrid shield)

Hiring “Spitter Spiders” can spit projectiles in an AoE radius in a circle around Webber.

Hiring those white “Cave Dweller” spiders can have them sometimes “escape” taking damage by scuttling up their spider web and into the sky (same animation as scuttle down but played in reverse probably?) 

Wendy gets King Boo now so Webber should probably have access to Spider Queen, likely as either a worthy boss fighting companion, or a painfully slow moving Beefalo capable of spawning baby spiders.

And Finally.. If feeding spider minions switcher doodle cookies can change which type of spiders they are then I fully expect Webber himself who is part spider to be able to eat those same cookies and change his own spider status for crazy buffs depending on which spider type he has switched to (night vision, Walter-like Slingshotter when a spitter?, being able to block damage from incoming attacks like hiding inside Snurtle shell armor if he munches armored spider switch cookie?)

I don’t usually make Webber based suggestions but my motto when it comes to DST Reworks & Skill Trees are:

”If all characters are OP then no character is OP.”

We as players have no idea what motivates Klei to make the changes they make, so if they want to make Abigail capable of fighting bosses now there’s probably going to be a ton of boss focused activity coming in the future updates?

That OR they listened to far too much feedback and are just trying to give them what they want even if it’s broken & out of character. *shrugs*

[hyoton123]

23 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

 

Consider if he fight perfectly, i guess he will take about 1 min 50 secs as wilson, 1 mins 55 secs as wendy (he failed to dodge once so i assume perfect run would be like this.) and 2 mins 5 secs as wes. This is my guess but i hope he can do some wilson run and wes for us to really compare.

WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO OBSESSED WITH ARMORED BEARGER. Do you go around your worlds thinking “darn, i cant WAIT to fight the armored bearger, i hope i can kill it in less time than i did on wes” and then when you kill it, think “well time to wait 9 more hours or whatever for bearger to respawn.” Do you think that armored bearger is some sort of good model for what DST gameplay is like?

[Tranoze]

2 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO OBSESSED WITH ARMORED BEARGER. Do you go around your worlds thinking “darn, i cant WAIT to fight the armored bearger, i hope i can kill it in less time than i did on wes” and then when you kill it, think “well time to wait 9 more hours or whatever for bearger to respawn.” Do you think that armored bearger is some sort of good model for what DST gameplay is like?

Why not, it good to know every aspect of wendy. And since he provide video materials, no reason to not discuss it to see what is good and what is bad.
If you want to discuss about something else, give us something else.

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Tranoze said:

But for current patch wendy with shadow abi little bit stronger because new vex is planar... So let say perfect wendy will kill it in about 1:50 now.

Yeah I have no idea, I'm interested to see how far she can go with her recent buffs.

Can't find a no hit perfect Wilson armored bearger. I saw a perfect Wanda with the Wagstaff armor at 2:04 seconds. The wilson I saw took a few hits at 2:40. I also saw a super perfect melee Walter at 2:04, so maybe that's close enough?

I do also have to point out that Armored Bearger is also Wendy's worst matchup. So its a rather sneaky trick to make any comparison or argument about her to focus on how fast she can kill Armored Bearger, as it should be her worst fight.

6 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO OBSESSED WITH ARMORED BEARGER. Do you go around your worlds thinking “darn, i cant WAIT to fight the armored bearger, i hope i can kill it in less time than i did on wes” and then when you kill it, think “well time to wait 9 more hours or whatever for bearger to respawn.” Do you think that armored bearger is some sort of good model for what DST gameplay is like?

It's because its her worst matchup.

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I can’t say that I agree with this… Bernie is PART of Willows character, but he isn’t her ENTIRE Character, And.. Unlike Abigail, Bernie can be healed to full health with a single use of a Sewing kit, so one kit can heal him up multiple times- Unlike Wendys potions. Without Bernie Willow has Fire Mage Powers, Without Abigail Wendy has … drinkable Elixers?

In order to go the full Bernie route you have to give up most of her fire powers and again Bernie's role is that of a tank. Also Wendy has a sewing kit equivalent in the form of the ghastly experience which also negates death she also has a greater degree of control over Abigial to further help with preventing being killed so I don't see the problem here.

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

As far as WEBBER goes, he needs heavy changes for sure.. but I imagine he’s going to get those changes with his skill tree and I imagine they’re going to appropriately be fitting of a character who is capable of hiring “Spiders” and here are a few ideas for that:

Hiring “Armored Cave spiders” can huddle around Webber and block incoming damage like body armor (yes even a few boss hits like a well timed Wigfrid shield)

Hiring “Spitter Spiders” can spit projectiles in an AoE radius in a circle around Webber.

Hiring those white “Cave Dweller” spiders can have them sometimes “escape” taking damage by scuttling up their spider web and into the sky (same animation as scuttle down but played in reverse probably?) 

Wendy gets King Boo now so Webber should probably have access to Spider Queen, likely as either a worthy boss fighting companion, or a painfully slow moving Beefalo capable of spawning baby spiders.

And Finally.. If feeding spider minions switcher doodle cookies can change which type of spiders they are then I fully expect Webber himself who is part spider to be able to eat those same cookies and change his own spider status for crazy buffs depending on which spider type he has switched to (night vision, Walter-like Slingshotter when a spitter?, being able to block damage from incoming attacks like hiding inside Snurtle shell armor if he munches armored spider switch cookie?)

I don’t usually make Webber based suggestions but my motto when it comes to DST Reworks & Skill Trees are:

”If all characters are OP then no character is OP.”

We as players have no idea what motivates Klei to make the changes they make, so if they want to make Abigail capable of fighting bosses now there’s probably going to be a ton of boss focused activity coming in the future updates?

That OR they listened to far too much feedback and are just trying to give them what they want even if it’s broken & out of character. *shrugs*

As for Webber regardless of what he gets for his spiders them getting a player tag should be the base standard for the same reason it's being given to Wendy.

[Tranoze]

8 minutes ago, Dingle said:

it should be her worst fight.

Not as bad as werepig if you underprepared (aka first werepig). There are cases where wendy dps just exactly equal to werepig heal so if you go without ranged weapon to draw agroo or no speed boost to dodge his punches, the fight could possibly last forever. The worst is when you play without epic heal bar server, you have no idea if you dealing more damage or werepig heal more damage.

I have seen speed run tournament winning run that killed werepig but as his commentary just say he got lucky abi just dodge werepig 3 times in a row leave him opening to attack werepig.

[Dingle]

Just now, Tranoze said:

Not as bad as werepig if you underprepared (aka first werepig). There are cases where wendy dps just exactly equal to werepig heal so if you go without ranged weapon to draw agroo or no speed boost to dodge his punches, the fight could possibly last forever.

I have seen speed run tournament winning run that killed werepig but as his commentary just say he got lucky abi just dodge werepig 3 times in a row leave him opening to attack werepig.

I figured this should be a lot better now due to the attack and hide commands in team spirit. Haven't tested yet, though.

[hyoton123]

Just now, Tranoze said:

Why not, it good to know every aspect of wendy. And since he provide video materials, no reason to discuss it to see what is good and what is bad.
If you want to discuss about something else, give us something else.

Okay. Lardee had a video on wendy a few weeks ago where they shrekt fuelweaver. Is that still the case? Because while wendy’s already good vs fuelweaver, early and safe and potionless fuelweaver actually changes your world runs, whereas armored bearger doesnt.

 

Like the bosses you’ll definitely kill in a world are crab king, celestial champion, shadow pieces, fuelweaver. CC, fuelweaver and shadow pieces are important to note if you can farm less time consumingly than setting up catapults. The encounters are ink blight trio, rictus, and brightshades. If a character is bad at these for some reason then thats a problem for getting rift gear. Then theres dealing with setpieces, like ruins/lunar grotto/archives/whatever. Then theres the bee queen (has extremely good drops), and dragonfly (i guess). 

Being good at bee queen is meaningful because you can get wrap, jellybeans and crown to snowball the rest of the game. Being good at armored bearger gets you an incredible QOL item (bearger bin) and some okay QOL items. If wendy has an easy BQ and fuelweaver then that is very meaningful. If she has a slightly longer armored bearger than someone else, who cares? In any event, the meaningful parts about tarnished’s vid is that abigail is still plenty useful and armored bearger is perfectly handleable. Her combar is very good even in what is supposed to be a heavily punishing fight for followers. Trying to calculate individual survivors’ clear times for one fight does not give you a good idea of what the DST experience is going to be like.

[Tranoze]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

I figured this should be a lot better now due to the attack and hide commands in team spirit. Haven't tested yet, though.

i dont think attack and hide command will be used that much for normal abi.
Attack command can be used for gesalt abi for aoe dash. (i saw that in lardee video)

1 minute ago, hyoton123 said:

Okay. Lardee had a video on wendy a few weeks ago ...

Hide commands feel quite bad since you have to time it perfectly, and bring too much things for wendy to control at once.

I havent seen anyone use attack command in combat effectively without gesatl abi.
I only seen hide command used during gesatl abi solo everything, but not when they fight together.

Would love to see thoses command in combat more, but right now i dont think they are that good.

[SilverSpoon]

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

As for Webber regardless of what he gets for his spiders them getting a player tag should be the base standard for the same reason it's being given to Wendy.

Actually, that's not so bad idea. Webber bringing along a bunch of spiders and causing lag has always been his problem.
If spider are given player tags, there won't be as much need to bring spiders around as there used to be.

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Tranoze said:

i dont think attack and hide command will be used that much for normal abi.
Attack command can be used for gesalt abi for aoe dash. (i saw that in lardee video)

Hide commands feel quite bad since you have to time it perfectly, and bring too much things for wendy to control at once.

I havent seen anyone use attack command in combat effectively without gesatl abi.
I only seen hide command used during gesatl abi solo everything, but not when they fight together.

Would love to see thoses command in combat more, but right now i dont think they are that good.

Hmm, will check out the nmwp matchup when I can. I dimly remember some trick to it, even pre beta. Maybe it was the honey elixir.

I've seen the attack command used really well for repositioning.

[Sacco]

4 hours ago, Steorra said:

Fast fact check: have you ever tried to use the newest Abi to fight Lunar bearger? Could you give a video to show how imbalance Abi is for current beta?

 

 

I personally don't think there's any difference between some simple amount change. I don't get what fun from simple amounts like 23456× damage modified from Wolfgang.

Because you are not meant to live abigail alone and kill the boss alone...

3 hours ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

No need for your consent.

what does it mean bro

[Dingle]

22 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

Why not, it good to know every aspect of wendy. And since he provide video materials, no reason to not discuss it to see what is good and what is bad.
If you want to discuss about something else, give us something else.

Thinking of what the best "neutral testing" boss would be. Dragonfly maybe? Something where Wendy and characters she is compared to have no strong advantage or disadvantage.

Something to think about, anyway.

[Arcwell]

Confused on how half the replies here are relevant to the topic.

Here is what I will say about the old Blessed Sisturn IV skill:

I hated it to the point where I would not even consider using it. It required you to park Abigail at a sisturn for 5 minutes every time you wanted her to have more max health. As soon as you took that damage, it would be gone until you have her wait at the sisturn again. This meant if you wanted to have Abigail at 1200 health regularly (which, mind you, was about the equivalent of a Wilson with 1.5 log suits against bosses), you would be stuck in a cycle of waiting each and every time you use Abigail's health for anything. It did not feel rewarding, it felt tedious.

[Tranoze]

7 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Being good at bee queen ....

We kinda dont care about the loot, we just want a fun fight. Some wendy main here pointed this out and i agree with them - Wendy player just want to fight together with abigail vs those bosses. The fight wouldnt be as fun if wendy fight alone, or abi fight alone.

4 minutes ago, Sacco said:

Because you are not meant to live abigail alone and kill the boss alone...

 

5 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Thinking of what the best "neutral testing" boss would be. Dragonfly maybe? Something where Wendy and characters she is compared to have no strong advantage or disadvantage.

Something to think about, anyway.

There cant be a neutral testing boss. But there can be 2 neutral testing boss. Once with AOE and one Single target.
Dfly is ok to be a neutral single target boss if he dont get engaged.
Aoe boss? bearger/dc.

For post rift version their pattern are too complex to be neutral.

[Debruh]

17 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Here is what I will say about the old Blessed Sisturn IV skill:

I hated it to the point where I would not even consider using it. It required you to park Abigail at a sisturn for 5 minutes every time you wanted her to have more max health. As soon as you took that damage, it would be gone until you have her wait at the sisturn again. This meant if you wanted to have Abigail at 1200 health regularly (which, mind you, was about the equivalent of a Wilson with 1.5 log suits against bosses), you would be stuck in a cycle of waiting each and every time you use Abigail's health for anything. It did not feel rewarding, it felt tedious

Honestly, both feel lazy

[Mysterious box]

22 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Actually, that's not so bad idea. Webber bringing along a bunch of spiders and causing lag has always been his problem.
If spider are given player tags, there won't be as much need to bring spiders around as there used to be.

Yeah I feel like giving the player tag to spiders while still keeping their fear mechanic would definitely help with scaling back his forces while still keeping them distinct from abigial it's really the main reason I changed my mind on the tag. I've come around on it and think it should be expanded to them.

[Dingle]

19 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

We kinda dont care about the loot, we just want a fun fight. Some wendy main here pointed this out and i agree with them - Wendy player just want to fight together with abigail vs those bosses. The fight wouldnt be as fun if wendy fight alone, or abi fight alone.

 

There cant be a neutral testing boss. But there can be 2 neutral testing boss. Once with AOE and one Single target.
Dfly is ok to be a neutral single target boss if he dont get engaged.
Aoe boss? bearger/dc.

For post rift version their pattern are too complex to be neutral.

Pre rift bearger might be fine yeah for a baseline aoe one, deerclops probably just dies too fast.

[DegenerateFurry]

4 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm just going to say this if abigial gets a player tag then Bernie should get a player tag and so should Webber's spiders when he gets his skill tree especially Webber since spiders are considered a large part of his character as well.

I could maybe see Bernie getting it, but not Webber's spiders. Webber's all about forming a massive army of disposable fodder that win by sheer numbers, they don't need to be survivable. 

I think Klei's changes to Wurt were meant to emphasize her having smaller groups of individually much stronger followers as opposed to Webber's massive swarms of squishable bugs. 

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I could maybe see Bernie getting it, but not Webber's spiders. Webber's all about forming a massive army of disposable fodder that win by sheer numbers, they don't need to be survivable. 

I think Klei's changes to Wurt were meant to emphasize her having smaller groups of individually much stronger followers as opposed to Webber's massive swarms of squishable bugs. 

He still needs it if the path forward is that a character's unique perk should contribute to higher end boss fights excluding Webber would be unnecessarily cruel.

[aidankocherhans]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

As for Webber regardless of what he gets for his spiders them getting a player tag should be the base standard for the same reason it's being given to Wendy.

Spiders are hired followers, that's not the same as a permanent follower

[DegenerateFurry]

27 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

He still needs it if the path forward is that a character's unique perk should contribute to higher end boss fights excluding Webber would be unnecessarily cruel.

No, what he needs is something else. Spiders are a very different follower type to something like Abigail or Bernie. Webber's biggest need right now is something that optimizes spider code so that they aren't extremely laggy in larger numbers. His armies don't even really struggle with AoE bosses anymore if you have a few nurses in the ranks. At most, I'd say he should get some really cheap spider logsuits he can make with two logs and a piece of silk each.