Walter is too weird for a skill tree

[luvu2bits]

Something that I feel like has kinda gotten lost over the years Walter has been around are that he's really... weird. Like, he has a lot of stuff going on. The term "perk soup" was thrown around a lot back then, but even so I thought he was alright.

But, now that skill trees are coming out and it's his turn, it's kinda dawned on me that it's really hard to pinpoint what Walter's *things* are to be able to break them down into a skill tree. Willow has a pretty clear split focus, that being fire and Bernie. Wortox has a pretty clear focus, that being his souls and his dual morality (which was executed in a really cool way.) Woodie has resource gathering, and all of the 3 Were forms, etc.

But like, what would you say Walter's about? The skill tree says that he's all about his slingshot and Woby, since that's what pretty much all of his skills are. But he has a bunch of stuff going on in his base kit. There's the health = sanity thing going on, which I guess makes sense to incentivize you use his slingshot to avoid taking damage and losing a bunch of sanity, since you can't restore it so easily with clothes. But none of his skills touch on this. And then there's the Pinecone Pioneer hat, which is supposed to help? But it would just be better to wear armor... and it's really underwhelming for being the thing he's always shown to wear. No skills improve that.

There's the whole camper thing going on, I think trees have positive sanity auras? And the campfire stories for group sanity. And the portable tent, which ties into his perk that makes him heal faster from sleeping. Which ties into the not caring about fashion thing. But none of his skills do anything that impacts any of that, or gives him more campery things.

And Woby, a whole companion that's always around, that serves as a Chester/Beefalo hybrid. There are a bunch of skills pertaining to her, but weirdly it feels like there's some things that should've been touched on that weren't. Like improving the efficacy of food she eats so it takes less to get her to turn big. Or being able to see her hunger, or her having slower hunger drain, stuff like that. And weirdly, no affinities for her.

I really don't want to go into it all that much since plenty of other people have, same with all the slingshot stuff. But it just feels like Walter is a character with so much going on and it seems like there's so much focus on just like, one thing. But there's only 15 skill points to work with and balance around... and mass condensation of his skills would make them probably too powerful. I dunno. It's a weird thing going on. On top of Walter having a really small playerbase, making it hard to know what people actually want since people arent really playing as him. I feel kinda bad though, to have 2/3 skill trees be in a really divisive state like this, and of course it would be right before the holidays too.

What do you guys think? What is Walter's focus? Do you think his skill tree is fine, or needs to be totally redone?

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, luvu2bits said:

There's the health = sanity thing going on, which I guess makes sense to incentivize you use his slingshot to avoid taking damage and losing a bunch of sanity, since you can't restore it so easily with clothes. But none of his skills touch on this. And then there's the Pinecone Pioneer hat, which is supposed to help? But it would just be better to wear armor... and it's really underwhelming for being the thing he's always shown to wear. No skills improve that.

There's the whole camper thing going on, I think trees have positive sanity auras? And the campfire stories for group sanity. And the portable tent, which ties into his perk that makes him heal faster from sleeping. Which ties into the not caring about fashion thing. But none of his skills do anything that impacts any of that, or gives him more campery things.

This all is tied into his sanity management as the central theme.

Whereas Woby ties into his slingshot gameplay or at least that seems to be the intent.

 

[aidankocherhans]

28 minutes ago, luvu2bits said:

There's the health = sanity thing going on, which I guess makes sense to incentivize you use his slingshot to avoid taking damage and losing a bunch of sanity, since you can't restore it so easily with clothes. But none of his skills touch on this.

I think they didn't change this because as long as the slingshot is viable there's nothing wrong with his sanity downside. I wouldn't want a skill that directly lowers the sanity damage he takes, that would just remove something that makes him interesting

[MisterBilly]

From what I took it when he first came out, he's always been built around his slingshot and his companion, minus the allergy to bee thing.

Like you said, and I've always take this as the case, his damage to sanity downside was to deter being in melee, but everything else seems to have been built around this too, like he is intended to ride Woby, so he can get as far away as possible and not get hit, which is an indirect slingshot perk, and everything else seems to be built to mitigate and exchange with his downsides. He's not afraid of sanity auras, because they probably felt it would be too much on top of his sanity damage, but it was strong on it's own, so they also made it so he didn't benefit from sanity clothing, but now this meant he had to effectively rely on foods for sanity gain, so then they added a cost effective tent that he could make and take with him to mitigate that; All of this deriving from what I saw as an attempt to make him rely on his slingshot. So yeah, I think in the end his skill tree focusing on his two most defining features besides his perk soup, would obviously be Woby and his Gat.

PS. they should remove fetching and do that thing where Woby drains hunger slower.

[Catuna_]

walter wurt and wormwood (and a lot of other characters too!) are in the same vein as characters with a lot of perks, this makes sense as they're all dlc characters/were intended to be dlc characters and they tend to be different
ive explained the coherence of walter's kit a lot and to spare you the details i think a lot of people just dont realize that having a lot of smaller perks can be just as good as being a simpler character (wormwood is a prime example), walter was just singled out for being bad, different, annoying, having the nerve to smile (lol) among other reasons...
a lot of walter's seemingly random perks like tree sanity contribute towards making his sanity flow smoothly, i've played him without the tree sanity and it felt quite awful comparatively. one could argue that it couldve been executed better and i'd say that this applies to any character in the game, there's always room for improvements somewhere but i think he does what hes supposed to well
for his skill tree, you can lean a little bit into everything that Walter stands for and can do; boyscout, slingshot, woby... I'd like for them to add badges, as his skilltree currently looks very bare and has very little skills compared to any other character
walter's intrepid nature and love for monsters, his demeanor, humor and his discipline as a boy scout make for a pretty compelling character in my opinion (im biased) and i'm sad that he gets a lot of hate, though i acknowledge that he's most defintiely not for everyone

[kroban]

Walter is not a "perk soup" at all, I dont know if this idea keeps getting brought up because of that random youtuber that said it or what...

2 hours ago, luvu2bits said:

But like, what would you say Walter's about?

Walter is sort of a moderate glass cannon thats supposed to be played as ranged while using Woby as a cheap mount to explore or put the distance, thats is the basic idea behind his kit. And the part where he suffers the most is his sanity. Since its an unique sanity system, he has many things on his base kit to deal with this, and him being an outdorsy boyscout is where most of these are based from . 

2 hours ago, luvu2bits said:

And then there's the Pinecone Pioneer hat, which is supposed to help? But it would just be better to wear armor

Armor in DST isnt like armor in DS, 2 pieces do nothing other than making both last longer. A good body armor + hat is enough, you barely lose sanity per hit that way, and hes not a character with whom you are supposed to be taking damage all the time. But I agree there could have been some perk on the skill tree adding more variations of this hat, like more insulation or the hat being an armor by itself, that would have been great. But, for early, body armor + hat is a thing, then once you have enough sanity food you can just use double armor if u want.

2 hours ago, luvu2bits said:

I think trees have positive sanity auras?

The most underrated perk Walter has, 5 nearby trees give you as much sanity as a Tam o Shanter + negating sanity lost per hp, you can make a base with a layout that includes trees and have free sanity all the time, there are times you literally spend entire years forgetting that sanity is a thing to worry about...

2 hours ago, luvu2bits said:

And the campfire stories for group sanity

Which gives sanity to him too and you can spam freely? I dont get if you are saying this as something bad or what, this fits with the character, and you can get the cheapest sanity station out of a campfire and some trees. 

2 hours ago, luvu2bits said:

And the portable tent, which ties into his perk that makes him heal faster from sleeping

An extremely cheap tent you can carry anywhere on a character that may need at times to regain the hp or sanity... same character that heals more hp with half the hunger cost. Again, is this supposed to be bad or not related to the rest? I dont get it, the tent is really good.

2 hours ago, luvu2bits said:

And Woby, a whole companion that's always around, that serves as a Chester/Beefalo hybrid. There are a bunch of skills pertaining to her, but weirdly it feels like there's some things that should've been touched on that weren't. Like improving the efficacy of food she eats so it takes less to get her to turn big. Or being able to see her hunger, or her having slower hunger drain, stuff like that. And weirdly, no affinities for her.

 I agree that Woby is the thing that makes the less sense from his base kit. And that she needs a lot of tweaks to become good. But her branch is still unfinished, and from the base kit, her 9 inventory slots makes it so you can suspend wearing backpacks momentarily to use body armor or insulation, or use her extra slots to save ammo.

2 hours ago, luvu2bits said:

. But it just feels like Walter is a character with so much going on and it seems like there's so much focus on just like, one thing

I'll be honest, I see this opinion brought up a lot on the forums, and I just dont get it. Everything I mentioned earlier about Walter is intertwined with his sanity. A lot of players claim that “hes all over the place” or that “he needs an entire branch in the skill tree to fix his sanity.” But like, not really?? He already has plenty of tools to manage it, the issue is that people dont stick with him long enough to figure it out. The main 2 issues he had were the slingshot and Woby not being useful. I admit that maybe a perk extending the range of the tree sanity gain would have been really good. But I understand why Klei decided to focus only on slingshot and Woby rather than giving us idk, some useless branch with "Walter's tent has 10 more uses" or "Walter gains more sanity from telling stories".

 

 

[Chewabacca]

In my opinion, Walter's focus is on exploration. His whole base kit combines to let him be on the move and away from base for quite a while. Inventory getting full? Woby. You need easy fast travel? Also Woby. Getting hungry? Shoot some birds (available year-round) for morsels. Health and sanity took a beating? Portable tent. I know that the meat of the skill tree is focused on the slingshot (and I don't actually mind that, being able to have 120 rounds of ammo in one stack does good things for my brain), but the Woby part also plays into exploration a bit: making her faster and a better get-away mount.

I do find it unfortunate though, that in addition to needing some tweaking to stand out from a beefalo, Woby's training station is stationary. With nearly everything else about Walter being mobile, I wish I had the option to switch the badges she's training without having to make the trek back to base.


 

[CosmicPotato97]

4 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

In my opinion, Walter's focus is on exploration. His whole base kit combines to let him be on the move and away from base for quite a while. Inventory getting full? Woby. You need easy fast travel? Also Woby. Getting hungry? Shoot some birds (available year-round) for morsels. Health and sanity took a beating? Portable tent. I know that the meat of the skill tree is focused on the slingshot (and I don't actually mind that, being able to have 120 rounds of ammo in one stack does good things for my brain), but the Woby part also plays into exploration a bit: making her faster and a better get-away mount.

I do find it unfortunate though, that in addition to needing some tweaking to stand out from a beefalo, Woby's training station is stationary. With nearly everything else about Walter being mobile, I wish I had the option to switch the badges she's training without having to make the trek back to base.


 

Glad to see someone else mentioning this, the exploration thing kind of falls off late-game (what is there left to explore?) but it feels great in the early game or playing less tryhardy.

And agreed on the last bit. I know DST is getting a bunch of new buttons all the time but it'd be neat if it was in Woby's storage UI maybe. A little openable tab in the corner of her chest UI? The ability to change badges whenever might not work in practice though, I'm not sure

[Torpeda]

1 hour ago, luvu2bits said:

And then there's the Pinecone Pioneer hat, which is supposed to help? But it would just be better to wear armor

You can still wear Body Armour, tho. If you're at full Health and Sanity, you can pretty much face tank even Ancient Guardian as long as you avoid being hit by tentacles. Just grab Thulecite Club, Starcaller's Staff, 4-6 Marble Suits and a few healing items. Yes, I've tried it. :P

On a serious note, you start with Pinetree Pioneer Hat and it's good to have for the early game before you get better Armour. I personally use it when I don't need Overheating/Wetness/Freezing Protection, I don't need Head Armour or don't have one, or I'm fighting with something like Log Suit.

It's not the best, but over time the Sanity you saved and the Sanity it provides adds up, especially with his other Sanity perks. Obviously the more progress you made within the world, the less value it provides.

It's also cheap combo with Umbrella to provide 100% Wetness resistance if you don't have Eyebrella yet.

I personally wish if while wearing it, Walter could benefit from tree sanity aura from farther away or if he could access Woby's training station with it.

[Creatorofswamps]

13 hours ago, luvu2bits said:

Something that I feel like has kinda gotten lost over the years Walter has been around are that he's really... weird. Like, he has a lot of stuff going on. The term "perk soup" was thrown around a lot back then, but even so I thought he was alright.

But, now that skill trees are coming out and it's his turn, it's kinda dawned on me that it's really hard to pinpoint what Walter's *things* are to be able to break them down into a skill tree. Willow has a pretty clear split focus, that being fire and Bernie. Wortox has a pretty clear focus, that being his souls and his dual morality (which was executed in a really cool way.) Woodie has resource gathering, and all of the 3 Were forms, etc.

But like, what would you say Walter's about? The skill tree says that he's all about his slingshot and Woby, since that's what pretty much all of his skills are. But he has a bunch of stuff going on in his base kit. There's the health = sanity thing going on, which I guess makes sense to incentivize you use his slingshot to avoid taking damage and losing a bunch of sanity, since you can't restore it so easily with clothes. But none of his skills touch on this. And then there's the Pinecone Pioneer hat, which is supposed to help? But it would just be better to wear armor... and it's really underwhelming for being the thing he's always shown to wear. No skills improve that.

There's the whole camper thing going on, I think trees have positive sanity auras? And the campfire stories for group sanity. And the portable tent, which ties into his perk that makes him heal faster from sleeping. Which ties into the not caring about fashion thing. But none of his skills do anything that impacts any of that, or gives him more campery things.

And Woby, a whole companion that's always around, that serves as a Chester/Beefalo hybrid. There are a bunch of skills pertaining to her, but weirdly it feels like there's some things that should've been touched on that weren't. Like improving the efficacy of food she eats so it takes less to get her to turn big. Or being able to see her hunger, or her having slower hunger drain, stuff like that. And weirdly, no affinities for her.

I really don't want to go into it all that much since plenty of other people have, same with all the slingshot stuff. But it just feels like Walter is a character with so much going on and it seems like there's so much focus on just like, one thing. But there's only 15 skill points to work with and balance around... and mass condensation of his skills would make them probably too powerful. I dunno. It's a weird thing going on. On top of Walter having a really small playerbase, making it hard to know what people actually want since people arent really playing as him. I feel kinda bad though, to have 2/3 skill trees be in a really divisive state like this, and of course it would be right before the holidays too.

What do you guys think? What is Walter's focus? Do you think his skill tree is fine, or needs to be totally redone?

+

[Lucas Rego]

I agree with you, Walter is more than slingshot and Woby.

I see that we have lower sanity drains when mounted on Woby in the skill tree, however maybe it’s better if they “deattach” if from Woby.

I think he should have a skill in the ST that nerfs the sanity drains for those that hate it, and not being attached to Woby probably… I fought FW with him and sanity is huge a huge problem in that fight

idk what’s coming by I share the same thoughts as you

Also: I know it’s crazy but I would love the pioneer hat to fuse with Horizon Expandinator, it fits him hahahaha

[PunkShark]

If i would have to summarize Walter i would say its

• Boyscout
• Woby
• Slingshot
  
  Everything else is related to his mental state cause, well he's a very unusual kid. He's fearless in that nothing phases him that could be deemed scary or dangerous. He doesn't like fashion because he thinks stylish clothing isn't very useful out in the wilderness. He's very much unlike any of the roster who feels at least somewhat relaxed or dapper in that sort of thing. But not him.
  
  Everything else like, tent, faster cooking, telling campfire stories, sanity from a batch of trees, and Woby is him being an experienced boyscout. Slingshot arguably as well since boyscouts do learn that sort of stuff thus he's prepared for the wilderness with it.
  
  I still don't understand how tree sanity was such a big deal to begin with. Walter is a character with many flavor perks as much as some of the others do. Wurt gets neutral from frogs, Wendy is neutral to regular ghosts, Woodie gets beard insulation and more follower time. Not to mention all of the characters who get an upside from "drowning" in water. But Walter getting sanity from trees because he's a boyscout who likes nature is simply the breaking point? Cmon now.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

Chewbacca is absolutely correct. He is a character built around exploration. The problem ends up being that he tends to not offer enough for a team, or even himself once the world has been discovered. He can't even deal with all the water. His exploration has a finite end, but the creativity that can be expressed in his skill tree does not. He's a smart (although strange) kid with clever solutions to the threats in the constant. Let's prove that.

I think, overall, the focus should have been about fixing his purpose as a character. There needs to be a compelling reason for people to choose him over everyone else in this diverse and powerful cast.

To me, this is accomplished by A. Fixing his risk/reward formula, ideally in ways that do not benefit him when he uses a Beefalo to bypass his sanity downside, or B. Improve his team support options. I truly believe both of these are entirely accomplishable in the same skill tree, but currently not appropriately addressed at all. (The only thing that's really been addressed is his DPS potential to catch up with modern features, which is a bit of a built-in objective with every skill tree we have. And it was only improved for his slingshot and nothing else.)

From this point onward, these objectives are implemented using methods that are faithful to his character and existing design, unless character building is part of that experience (such as Woby gaining progressive bravery to assist Walter in combat, for example.)

This could easily incorporate the missing and underexplored other features of this character, while also improving his slingshot and Woby. He could have a focus on first aid for allies and himself. A superior ability to harvest resources from farms. Improved tent efficiency especially when granted to friends. Improved hunts or even the frequency of hunts appearing in his proximity. Maybe he should also be able to befriend followers for longer, as his nature-loving persona would suggest. Trees could grow faster when planted by him.

Woby could have a more active role in support both in and out of combat. I saw someone suggest she could be used as a delivery service and I LOVE that so much. It could have been a simple usefulness upgrade, like more storage slots, or the ability to use Elastispacers on Woby's storage. Maybe she could do more in combat with an entire family of skills dedicated to improving her courage. She could autonomously heal weakened allies a little bit, or keep an enemy pinned temporarily, or have a bark attack to stun weaker mobs who approach her owner.

Ammo rounds could improve his DPS to competitive levels while offering unique support to teammates. How about some damage-over-time that helps justify the slingshot as a weapon swap with melee? He could have gotten a round that will heal allies in an area for a small amount. One that reduces damage dealt by the target. Maybe one that increases specifically melee weapon damage exclusively for both allies and himself. One to make the target wet, so he can have unique pairings with Wigfrid, Warly, or anyone who likes the idea of Morning Stars. There's so much flavor that could be implemented on his rounds, too. Water balloons are goofy and perfect for him. How about Toma Root as a round? That's funny as hell and Wortox approves, while justifying any kind of wacky status effect. Literally slinging parts of a Telltale Heart? That's hardcore, man. A slingshot is a very fun and expressive weapon.

I'm just spit balling, here.

I feel like a lot could be done with Walter, and many of these things have already been discussed on the forums. There's so much to work with, here. But we just ended up with a slingshot with very limited support and inconsequential Woby skills that fail to differentiate her from Beefalo in a meaningful way. At least the DPS is competitive on the slingshot, now, so that goal was reached...

In the end, it just seems kind of apparent that they worked forwards and hoped to reach a decent goal, rather than backwards to try and make an established vision for him a reality. And this makes me both sad and concerned.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Chewbacca is absolutely correct. He is a character built around exploration. The problem ends up being that he tends to not offer enough for a team, or even himself once the world has been discovered. He can't even deal with all the water. His exploration has a finite end, but the creativity that can be expressed in his skill tree does not. He's a smart (although strange) kid with clever solutions to the threats in the constant. Let's prove that.

I disagree here the only perk truly geared toward exploration on Walter is Woby his main focus is sanity management and his contribution to the team is his portable tents and campfire stories outside of combat and his newly enhanced crowd control abilities inside of combat.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

24 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I disagree here the only perk truly geared toward exploration on Walter is Woby his main focus is sanity management and his contribution to the team is his portable tents and campfire stories outside of combat and his newly enhanced crowd control abilities inside of combat.

So between Woby, an immediately accessible mount who also acts as additional carrying capacity, his portable Tent Roll, his sanity gain among trees, his favorite food being the long-lasting Trail Mix, his aversion to combat, his slingshot being capable of only handling weaker mobs before his skill tree, all of his heavily expressed curiosity for the world via quotes and lore... He's not about exploration? Are you really sure? Because of campfire stories and an AoE round that isn't released yet? As if several other characters don't offer AoE or similar solutions to the same issue? He's about sanity control when his entire skill tree is about his slingshot?

Sorry, but his issue is he isn't compelling. This is why he's the least played character in the game, because nobody seems to know what he's supposed to do. I don't know how his focus is sanity management with two options that he can only exclusively provide to allies by wasting their time sitting in place doing nothing. And only one of these options is unique to him. If he's sanity management, then what does this make Wigfrid? Super-sanity management? Is Willow ultra-mega-sanity management with her stars and Bernie support for nightmares?

Also, I'm not sure why you replied to me instead of the original poster. You didn't reply to anything I said that was distinct from their post. I just agreed with them to lead into how his failures have not been addressed with his skill tree, and don't incorporate his flavor very well either.

[Mysterious box]

23 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

So between Woby, an immediately accessible mount who also acts as additional carrying capacity, his portable Tent Roll, his sanity gain among trees, his favorite food being the long-lasting Trail Mix, his aversion to combat, his slingshot being capable of only handling weaker mobs before his skill tree, all of his heavily expressed curiosity for the world via quotes and lore... He's not about exploration? Are you really sure? Because of campfire stories and an AoE round that isn't released yet? As if several other characters don't offer AoE or similar solutions to the same issue? He's about sanity control when his entire skill tree is about his slingshot?

Sorry, but his issue is he isn't compelling. This is why he's the least played character in the game, because nobody seems to know what he's supposed to do. I don't know how his focus is sanity management with two options that he can only exclusively provide to allies by wasting their time sitting in place doing nothing. And only one of these options is unique to him. If he's sanity management, then what does this make Wigfrid? Super-sanity management? Is Willow ultra-mega-sanity management with her stars and Bernie support for nightmares?

Also, I'm not sure why you replied to me instead of the original poster. You didn't reply to anything I said that was distinct from their post. I just agreed with them to lead into how his failures have not been addressed with his skill tree, and don't incorporate his flavor very well either.

His campfire stories, tent roll, sanity gain from trees, and his pinetree pioneer hat are all tied to his sanity management his slingshot helps him stay out of direct combat lowering the odds he will get hit as does Woby's speed. All his upsides and downsides relate to sanity in some way directly outside of Woby whose perks assist with it in lesser ways again such as speed and storing his ammo. His slingshot had no such limitation on only being used on weaker enemies it was just slower for balance reasons and was even initially designed with a combat focus and all of this is even excluding his skill tree.

Also the idea that exploration is his central theme is pretty flimsy favorite foods are just meant to be flavor bonuses they aren't meant to tie into core perks otherwise Wes wouldn't have his as meaty stew and Maxwell's wouldn't be Wobster dinner. Also other characters having sanity management options doesn't invalidate his focus it's like saying Wormwood doesn't have a farming or combat focus because Wickerbottom and Wolfgang exist. Walter was least played specifically because he was weak while having impactful downsides this has been brought up many times people prefer easier and more relaxed experiences rather than working harder for less.

I replied to you simply because yours was the first I saw truthfully. 

23 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Because of campfire stories and an AoE round that isn't released yet?

Also what do you mean his campfire stories have been with him since release???

Edit: forgot to add he also has more sanity perks in his fearlessness and distaste for fashion like the majority of his perks are tied to sanity how can you not see it as a central theme?

[OMEGASCRUFF]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

His campfire stories, tent roll, sanity gain from trees, and his pinetree pioneer hat are all tied to his sanity management his slingshot helps him stay out of direct combat lowering the odds he will get hit as does Woby's speed. All his upsides and downsides relate to sanity in some way directly outside of Woby whose perks assist with it in lesser ways again such as speed and storing his ammo. His slingshot had no such limitation on only being used on weaker enemies it was just slower for balance reasons and was even initially designed with a combat focus and all of this is even excluding his skill tree.

Also the idea that exploration is his central theme is pretty flimsy favorite foods are just meant to be flavor bonuses they aren't meant to tie into core perks otherwise Wes wouldn't have his as meaty stew and Maxwell's wouldn't be Wobster dinner. Also other characters having sanity management options doesn't invalidate his focus it's like saying Wormwood doesn't have a farming or combat focus because Wickerbottom and Wolfgang exist. Walter was least played specifically because he was weak while having impactful downsides this has been brought up many times people prefer easier and more relaxed experiences rather than working harder for less.

I replied to you simply because yours was the first I saw truthfully. 

Also what do you mean his campfire stories have been with him since release???

Yes. I'm aware he's had the campfire stories. Are you that troubled by a lack of a comma when I had already brought up his campfire stories earlier and didn't specifically say they're new, as I did with his AoE? The phrase is clearly referring to the noun before it, not both. The AoE is new, and you know what I meant, but chose to believe I didn't know what I was talking about. Yeesh.

Anyways, sure. If you think he's all about sanity management, and the fact that many of his traits touch on sanity (one of three main stats in the game, so yes, many characters have traits that touch sanity), and not just options for he, himself, to manage his own downside, then why is none of his skill tree addressing it at all, even vaguely? And why does he offer no meaningful support to his teammates in this regard? Why are all the things I listed specifically not things you benefit for by being at base or focusing on combat? Why do they all relate to being on the go? Why does he have no traits related to being at high or low sanity?

If this is your idea of what a character's focus is, then Wormwood isn't about plant-related abilities and his ties to the moon. He's about HP management, because he has multiple traits, tools, and skills that directly touch on it, and it's his primary flaw. Do you agree with this earnestly? This is a very direct comparison to the point you're trying to make here.

If you want to play a character revolving around their own individual sanity management, try Maxwell, a character with actual sanity upsides and downsides and independent ways he can manipulate it for both utility and combat. Now THAT'S a character whose gameplay revolves around sanity management. Walter does not do this. It's just his combat downside and he has some traits to manage it, the exact same way as Wormwood. In fact, the best way to manage sanity on Walter is to just avoid taking damage altogether, because it's actually his health he has to manage to work around his flaw.

I mentioned Trail Mix as just a single aspect and I don't know why you focused on it. It's a single detail and a small part of the larger picture. And I never said all favorite foods tie into core perks to begin with for every character. It's just often just lore and theming. (Also, one of your examples is super flawed. Wes's favorite food is Fresh Fruit Crepes, and it's actively reflective of what Wes does. It's clearly ironic, and refers directly to his low stats and getting the short end of the stick. Also they're French. But again, I never said every character's favorite food has this quality, but several sure do make a lot of sense in a broader way, don't they?)

If you don't think flavor and personality are not tied to a character's identity and purpose then I don't know what to tell you, other than that this is clearly incorrect. We have an entire cast of actually cohesive characters with real viability and utility that tie their flavor qualities to their identity and purpose.

He's literally a scout, who got trapped in the constant for his curiosity with nature. I don't know how it couldn't be made more obvious just by knowing about his identity. He's about exploration and wilderness survival. It's literally what he does. It's, like, central to his whole design. I don't know what else to say here, because he'd be built like Maxwell or be an actual therapist if sanity management was the crux of his design.

[arubaro]

He needed a scout branch

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

The AoE is new, and you know what I meant, but chose to believe I didn't know what I was talking about. Yeesh.

I can only go off your words not your intentions I can't read you through the keyboard.

1 hour ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Yes. I'm aware he's had the campfire stories. Are you that troubled by a lack of a comma when I had already brought up his campfire stories earlier and didn't specifically say they're new, as I did with his AoE? The phrase is clearly referring to the noun before it, not both. The AoE is new, and you know what I meant, but chose to believe I didn't know what I was talking about. Yeesh.

Anyways, sure. If you think he's all about sanity management, and the fact that many of his traits touch on sanity (one of three main stats in the game, so yes, many characters have traits that touch sanity), and not just options for he, himself, to manage his own downside, then why is none of his skill tree addressing it at all, even vaguely? And why does he offer no meaningful support to his teammates in this regard? Why are all the things I listed specifically not things you benefit for by being at base or focusing on combat? Why do they all relate to being on the go? Why does he have no traits related to being at high or low sanity?

If this is your idea of what a character's focus is, then Wormwood isn't about plant-related abilities and his ties to the moon. He's about HP management, because he has multiple traits, tools, and skills that directly touch on it, and it's his primary flaw. Do you agree with this earnestly? This is a very direct comparison to the point you're trying to make here.

If you want to play a character revolving around their own individual sanity management, try Maxwell, a character with actual sanity upsides and downsides and independent ways he can manipulate it for both utility and combat. Now THAT'S a character whose gameplay revolves around sanity management. Walter does not do this. It's just his combat downside and he has some traits to manage it, the exact same way as Wormwood. In fact, the best way to manage sanity on Walter is to just avoid taking damage altogether, because it's actually his health he has to manage to work around his flaw.

I mentioned Trail Mix as just a single aspect and I don't know why you focused on it. It's a single detail and a small part of the larger picture. And I never said all favorite foods tie into core perks to begin with for every character. It's just often just lore and theming. (Also, one of your examples is super flawed. Wes's favorite food is Fresh Fruit Crepes, and it's actively reflective of what Wes does. It's clearly ironic, and refers directly to his low stats and getting the short end of the stick. Also they're French. But again, I never said every character's favorite food has this quality, but several sure do make a lot of sense in a broader way, don't they?)

If you don't think flavor and personality are not tied to a character's identity and purpose then I don't know what to tell you, other than that this is clearly incorrect. We have an entire cast of actually cohesive characters with real viability and utility that tie their flavor qualities to their identity and purpose.

He's literally a scout, who got trapped in the constant for his curiosity with nature. I don't know how it couldn't be made more obvious just by knowing about his identity. He's about exploration and wilderness survival. It's literally what he does. It's, like, central to his whole design. I don't know what else to say here, because he'd be built like Maxwell or be an actual therapist if sanity management was the crux of his design.

So let me get this straight a character with 7 perks tied to sanity management, 3 downsides tied to sanity, and only 1 perk tied to exploration isn't a sanity character but Maxwell is only because he uses it as a resource? And that doesn't sound silly?

Also he has two perks tied to restoring teammates stats but because people don't want to use it so they don't count?

Edit: to be clear being boyscout is his overall theme but he uses that to manage his sanity.

[Dingle]

I thought Walter was mostly defined by his bee allergy tbh

[Chewabacca]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

I can only go off your words not your intentions I can't read you through the keyboard.

So let me get this straight a character with 7 perks tied to sanity management, 3 downsides tied to sanity, and only 1 perk tied to exploration isn't a sanity character but Maxwell is only because he uses it as a resource? And that doesn't sound silly?

I would argue that three of his perks are tied to exploration:

• Woby, of course, as a hybrid Chester and beefalo
• his slingshot (see the point about it enabling him to quickly and easily get food on the go)
• portable tent (if he's not meant to be roaming around with it, why is it portable?)

But beyond that, sanity management isn't really something you actively do. It's just another part of your status that you need to keep in check, like hunger or health, and once you've got it to where it needs to be, there's not much more to do with it. Exploration is much more part of his gameplay. I could perhaps see the argument that sanity management is what Walter contributes to a team, but in that case he's only got two perks (the campfire stories and the portable tents) that he can use to help his teammates out with their sanity. I guess theoretically you could also manage sanity with the goal of going insane and getting nightmare fuel, but Walter is a bad character to do this with since he needs to either take damage or eat a bunch of Glommer goop/uncooked meat to go insane.

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

• his slingshot (see the point about it enabling him to quickly and easily get food on the go)
• portable tent (if he's not meant to be roaming around with it, why is it portable?)

His slingshot can get food on the go but so can any other weapon or anyone without one as food is abundant and even Wendy can command Abigial to attack birds now and I wouldn't call that function a exploration perk. The slingshot's main function is to keep him from getting hit it's the reason that even before the skill tree he had mainly damage based rounds.

As for the tent the reason it's portable is because he needs to be able to manage his sanity on the go since any form of damage lowers his sanity.

8 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

But beyond that, sanity management isn't really something you actively do. It's just another part of your status that you need to keep in check, like hunger or health, and once you've got it to where it needs to be, there's not much more to do with it.

It is though but when you enter combat specifically or fail to maintain his hp. It's more of a focus for Walter than others because his hp becomes a extentions of his sanity.

11 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

Exploration is much more part of his gameplay. I could perhaps see the argument that sanity management is what Walter contributes to a team, but in that case he's only got two perks (the campfire stories and the portable tents) that he can use to help his teammates out with their sanity. I guess theoretically you could also manage sanity with the goal of going insane and getting nightmare fuel, but Walter is a bad character to do this with since he needs to either take damage or eat a bunch of Glommer goop/uncooked meat to go insane.

Exploration is a part of the game but it's inherently a function of every character as well. Also while Walter might only have 2 group skills most characters only have 1 or none and this is considering almost everyone else went through refreshes.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

I can only go off your words not your intentions I can't read you through the keyboard.

Unfortunately, that's literally what reading means. That's what you do to words that are typed through a keyboard. Sorry to tell you this.

Anyone can be pedantic. It's pretty boring, isn't it? Let's move on.

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

So let me get this straight a character with 7 perks tied to sanity management, 3 downsides tied to sanity, and only 1 perk tied to exploration isn't a sanity character but Maxwell is only because he uses it as a resource? And that doesn't sound silly?

No, it doesn't sound silly at all. How are you arguing against this?

Yes. Maxwell's sanity being his primary resource to manipulate in multiple different ways with traits that directly impact how his sanity increases or decrease... Yeah. Sounds about right to me. That man manipulates sanity. It's literally his version of mana or MP.

Willow does the same. She has multiple traits that affect her sanity, and a reason to increase or decrease her sanity as needed. Bernie is a huge component of her combat, and he even keeps her safe(r) from low sanity's downside. She also has the fastest sanity recovery option in the game, for herself and for allies.

Wickerbottom, to a lesser extent, manipulates sanity as well, and I didn't even mention that Maxwell can use all of her books. But it's her equivalent to mana as well. She even has the highest sanity pool and a couple traits related to sanity.

Walter does not do any this, and you're trying to quantify something that's qualitative to begin. I'm not even sure where you got 7 and 3 unless you're picking apart larger traits into smaller bits. These features are not remotely equal, but I'm sure you know that. He does not gain anything from having high sanity. He does not lose anything special from being at low sanity. He does not spend his sanity on anything.

His traits amount to two cumulative primary features – changes to his sanity are limited in passive modifiers, and he loses sanity from damage. Instead of managing sanity, he avoids interacting with it entirely. He receives no unique benefit for risking his sanity to begin with. He generally restores it the same way as anyone else, by eating food. He can just deal with his nightmares like anyone else. His immunity to sanity auras can end up making him interact with sanity even less than other characters.

Ultimately, the only thing he manages is being hurt at all, not his sanity. That's literally all there is to it, and he's not special for this. Nobody typically wants to be hurt (with exception of Wanda, sorta, but not really.) He just takes extra care to avoid damage as much as possible (a.k.a. he rides a Beefalo), but he generally recovers his sanity the same way as anyone else, and has no special interaction with his sanity's levels, nor any specific benefit to putting himself in harm's way. I'd be more inclined to agree with you at least partially if any of these things were true, but they're not.

This isn't sanity management. He just has a few largely trivial items and minor traits that interact with his main downside, specifically for new players, and for flavor. (And I guess campfire stories for friends to waste their time on, but at least they're goofy and good for establishing his personality.) Look at what he's become. Stop focusing on the number of traits and look at the bigger picture here.

As far as I can tell, you're still following the same logic that would lead someone to say Wormwood is a character about HP management. That dude sure has a lot of things he can craft, and even a couple summons, that use his HP as currency, along with a few built in traits involving his HP. There's a stronger case for this flawed take on Wormwood than there is for your take on Walter if we're trying to numerically and liberally quantify traits and pretend that's meaningful.

However, I'm rapidly losing interest in this discussion. You haven't really said anything that actually challenges my position, so I don't see a point in continuing unless you reinvent your argument.

[aidankocherhans]

23 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

As far as I can tell, you're still following the same logic that would lead someone to say Wormwood is a character about HP management

Wormwood is a character about hp management. It's not the primary/only thing he is, but learning how to manage his hp mechanics is critical to playing him

[Chewabacca]

52 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

His slingshot can get food on the go but so can any other weapon or anyone without one as food is abundant and even Wendy can command Abigial to attack birds now and I wouldn't call that function a exploration perk. The slingshot's main function is to keep him from getting hit it's the reason that even before the skill tree he had mainly damage based rounds.

As for the tent the reason it's portable is because he needs to be able to manage his sanity on the go since any form of damage lowers his sanity.

It is though but when you enter combat specifically or fail to maintain his hp. It's more of a focus for Walter than others because his hp becomes a extentions of his sanity.

Exploration is a part of the game but it's inherently a function of every character as well. Also while Walter might only have 2 group skills most characters only have 1 or none and this is considering almost everyone else went through refreshes.

I'm new to the forum and not sure how to break up your reply by paragraphs to address, so am just responding to this in one chunk.

Most can't get food on the go as easily, though, really, without taking the time to get into a fight for meat or chase something down, unless of course they're in a biome with catcoons around. Non-meat food takes time to regrow and in winter simply doesn't at all, except for farms. And Wendy now being able to do it too doesn't make it any less valuable for exploring.

Unlike Warly, who can only eat from the portable crockpot and so really does need the thing on hand at all times, the risk of Walter taking a large amount of damage and going insane is not large enough to necessitate that he have a tent ready-to-go at all times...unless you don't want to return to base in case of an unfortunate accident, and the situation where you are both low on health and far from base is not likely to happen unless you are regularly taking extended trips away from base.

I know that exploration is a function of every character. That doesn't mean that some aren't meant to be better than others. Combat is a function of every character as well, but Wolfgang is still clearly meant to be better at it.

The point about group perks is interesting and I wanted to go on a tangent to list them across characters. This isn't really meant to be a counterargument since I know it's a side point, I just wanted to get my thoughts down:

• Wilson can provide cheap beard hair for the meat effigy (admittedly less useful in DST, where life-giving amulets are less cumbersome to use and telltale hearts, than in DS). He can also make gold, marble, and gems to give to other players.
• Willow can provide heating and light for free...yeah Willow doesn't really have group skills unless we're counting combat (via Bernie and fire powers) as a group skill.
• Wolfgang has a skill enabling him to boost other players' sanity by a small amount.
• Wendy can provide a ludicrous amount of silk, monster meat, honey, and stingers. I know I said that I wasn't sure whether to count combat as a group skill, but these are such universally useful items (well, except for stingers, unless you're on the ocean a ton) that I think it counts. She can also boost other players' sanity via the Sisturn.
• WX-78 has circuits allowing them to boost nearby players' sanity, warmth, or coldness.
• Wickerbottom has a book that sets player temperatures to normal and gets rid of their wetness. She also has a book that lets other players craft an item higher than they'd usually be able to craft (granted, this isn't a very good skill since it's only 1 item and getting an alchemy engine up is pretty easy). She can also take care of farming very quickly.
• Woodie provides a ton of wood and can hand out discount football helmets and walking canes very early on.
• Maxwell is also good for resource collecting, though apart from that, yeah, he isn't that group-oriented.
• Wigfrid can give her helm, spear, and shields to other players. There are also all her battle songs. As with Wendy, while I'm trying not to count combat as a group skill, when her songs are explicitly about empowering other players I think it's fair.
• Webber can prevent spiders from attacking others and can give easy silk.
• Warly has a wide variety of foods with special effects that everyone can benefit from.
• Wormwood can make living logs and berry bushes.
• Winona's whole kit is focused on structures that serve the group.
• Wortox can heal those around him.
• Wurt has a skill letting characters near her move faster through the marsh and can give them an item that makes merms neutral to them.
• Wanda has the second chance watch.
• Wes is a joke of a character and even he has some cheap semi-useful crafts that can be given to other players.

Looking at this, I would say that only Willow, Wolfgang, Maxwell, Wanda, and maybe Webber have 1 useful group perk at max.