Walter is too weird for a skill tree

[Mysterious box]

11 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Unfortunately, that's literally what reading means. That's what you do to words that are typed through a keyboard. Sorry to tell you this.

Anyone can be pedantic. It's pretty boring, isn't it? Let's move on.

Problem being your words were different than your intentions.

31 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Walter does not do any this, and you're trying to quantify something that's qualitative to begin. I'm not even sure where you got 7 and 3 unless you're picking apart larger traits into smaller bits. These features are not remotely equal, but I'm sure you know that. He does not gain anything from having high sanity. He does not lose anything special from being at low sanity. He does not spend his sanity on anything.

So him  being filled with sanity related mechanics and ways to combat sanity loss is just somehow a small part of his design? He loses 2x sanity on hit by default and starts with a hat that halves that value. How is this not silly? I bring up the amount of perks related to sanity specifically because it makes it very clear what his focus is what you doing is like looking at all Willow's fire related perks and saying nah I think she's just based on cooking it's just being willfully ignorant.

Let's even expand on this the argument for him being a exploration based character is him having a speed boost something multiple characters have, a way to kill birds again something multiple characters have, a Chester something every character can obtain and Maxwell has built into his hat, a the portable tent something speficially made to combat his sanity downside.

54 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

His traits amount to two cumulative primary features – changes to his sanity are limited in passive modifiers, and he loses sanity from damage. Instead of managing sanity, he avoids interacting with it entirely. He receives no unique benefit for risking his sanity to begin with. He generally restores it the same way as anyone else, by eating food. He can just deal with his nightmares like anyone else. His immunity to sanity auras can end up making him interact with sanity even less than other characters.

Ultimately, the only thing he manages is being hurt at all, not his sanity. That's literally all there is to it, and he's not special for this. Nobody typically wants to be hurt (with exception of Wanda, sorta, but not really.) He just takes extra care to avoid damage as much as possible (a.k.a. he rides a Beefalo), but he generally recovers his sanity the same way as anyone else, and has no special interaction with his sanity's levels, nor any specific benefit to putting himself in harm's way. I'd be more inclined to agree with you at least partially if any of these things were true, but they're not.

This isn't sanity management. He just has a few largely trivial items and minor traits that interact with his main downside, specifically for new players, and for flavor. (And I guess campfire stories for friends to waste their time on, but at least they're goofy and good for establishing his personality.) Look at what he's become. Stop focusing on the number of traits and look at the bigger picture here.

Problem being unless you can perfectly kit you have to deal with sanity eventually or forever avoid combat all together this is even more true pre skill tree when the slingshot was a lot worse. Don't forget bosses can knock you off a beefalo and Woby's existence directly tells the player beefalo Walter was not the intended gameplay loop for the character. 

Honestly possibly the biggest problem with your arguement is you equate viability with intended design which makes you ignore what's staring you in the face. 

1 hour ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

However, I'm rapidly losing interest in this discussion. You haven't really said anything that actually challenges my position, so I don't see a point in continuing unless you reinvent your argument.

I could say the same the again the arguement for him being a exploration character is things like he has a mount that can store things that by your own words should be replaced by a beefalo and he can shoot things with a slingshot in a world overflowing with food. With the counter arguement larely boiling down to we should ignore the massive amount of mechanics shoved in Walter related to sanity I really don't know how this even seems reasonable.

 

5 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

So between Woby, an immediately accessible mount who also acts as additional carrying capacity, his portable Tent Roll, his sanity gain among trees, his favorite food being the long-lasting Trail Mix, his aversion to combat, his slingshot being capable of only handling weaker mobs before his skill tree, all of his heavily expressed curiosity for the world via quotes and lore... He's not about exploration?

Heck most of what's mentioned here is directly tied to his sanity or is a change you make to his playstyle due to his sanity. I mean...

Tent roll restores sanity and hp(which drains sanity when low)

Gains sanity near trees hmm I wonder why gaining that sanity is relevant if managing his sanity isn't?

Even his slingshot has been showcased being a good tool to kill post rift normal mobs pre skill tree like brightshades and the ink trio which again would be dangerous to his sanity. 

Even his aversion to combat if sanity management isn't a core aspect why would he be more careful with combat than other characters?

You even made a claim for his favorite food which actually is just a niche perk.

It feels more like it's what you want for the character facts be darned.

3 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

Most can't get food on the go as easily, though, really, without taking the time to get into a fight for meat or chase something down, unless of course they're in a biome with catcoons around. Non-meat food takes time to regrow and in winter simply doesn't at all, except for farms. And Wendy now being able to do it too doesn't make it any less valuable for exploring.

Wolfgang can throw dumbells at birds for food pre skill tree and I believe Wigfrid can just dash into birds to kill them post skill tree. But regardless via early game exploration you can stay completely fed without killing a single thing unless by exploring you mean staying in a small area or being on a 8+ player server where everyone went the same general direction. Even then butterflies are plentiful

As for past the first few days a crockpot is available.

9 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

And Wendy now being able to do it too doesn't make it any less valuable for exploring.

Also it's worth mentioning that not only was Wendy already better at amassing food while exploring but various characters have perks that make gathering food either easier or more efficient Walter is not special in this regard at all.

11 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

the risk of Walter taking a large amount of damage and going insane is not large enough to necessitate that he have a tent ready-to-go at all times...unless you don't want to return to base in case of an unfortunate accident, and the situation where you are both low on health and far from base is not likely to happen unless you are regularly taking extended trips away from base.

You might be surprised to hear this but one of the most common deaths people tend to have is to insanity now ask yourself a question what easier to recover in mass sanity or hp? Sure you might find some sanity items here and there or know better sanity restoration methods if your more experienced but not everyone is if Walter gets smacked up you can't throw a tophat on and call it a day and his sanity from trees not only can't help him everywhere but does him no good if he's already insane. 2x sanity damage is a powerful downside but to counter that he needed a good upside and that's being able to bring a non perishable full heal with 10 uses while only spending half the hunger to use it.

19 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

The point about group perks is interesting and I wanted to go on a tangent to list them across characters. This isn't really meant to be a counterargument since I know it's a side point, I just wanted to get my thoughts down:

• Wilson can provide cheap beard hair for the meat effigy (admittedly less useful in DST, where life-giving amulets are less cumbersome to use and telltale hearts, than in DS). He can also make gold, marble, and gems to give to other players.
• Willow can provide heating and light for free...yeah Willow doesn't really have group skills unless we're counting combat (via Bernie and fire powers) as a group skill.
• Wolfgang has a skill enabling him to boost other players' sanity by a small amount.
• Wendy can provide a ludicrous amount of silk, monster meat, honey, and stingers. I know I said that I wasn't sure whether to count combat as a group skill, but these are such universally useful items (well, except for stingers, unless you're on the ocean a ton) that I think it counts. She can also boost other players' sanity via the Sisturn.
• WX-78 has circuits allowing them to boost nearby players' sanity, warmth, or coldness.
• Wickerbottom has a book that sets player temperatures to normal and gets rid of their wetness. She also has a book that lets other players craft an item higher than they'd usually be able to craft (granted, this isn't a very good skill since it's only 1 item and getting an alchemy engine up is pretty easy). She can also take care of farming very quickly.
• Woodie provides a ton of wood and can hand out discount football helmets and walking canes very early on.
• Maxwell is also good for resource collecting, though apart from that, yeah, he isn't that group-oriented.
• Wigfrid can give her helm, spear, and shields to other players. There are also all her battle songs. As with Wendy, while I'm trying not to count combat as a group skill, when her songs are explicitly about empowering other players I think it's fair.
• Webber can prevent spiders from attacking others and can give easy silk.
• Warly has a wide variety of foods with special effects that everyone can benefit from.
• Wormwood can make living logs and berry bushes.
• Winona's whole kit is focused on structures that serve the group.
• Wortox can heal those around him.
• Wurt has a skill letting characters near her move faster through the marsh and can give them an item that makes merms neutral to them.
• Wanda has the second chance watch.
• Wes is a joke of a character and even he has some cheap semi-useful crafts that can be given to other players.

Looking at this, I would say that only Willow, Wolfgang, Maxwell, Wanda, and maybe Webber have 1 useful group perk at max.

Some of these I can agree with but others I don't think qualify at the end of the day though I guess it's up to individual interpretation.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

50 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Wormwood is a character about hp management. It's not the primary/only thing he is, but learning how to manage his hp mechanics is critical to playing him

I agree with this partially due to all the things I mentioned. I would have addressed this more transparently if I got an answer about the comparison, because I didn't want to list out all my reasonings for why HP management is more relevant to Wormwood than sanity is to Walter. I wanted to see their response without my input.

That's why I said it's flawed rather than inherently bad, because I don't think it's the first thing most people would point to when asked what Wormwood's about, especially when anyone will die at 0 HP. He's, on a larger scale, designed around his identity as a lunar plant, which is fairly vague, contributing to his reason of being another character with a strange mixture of several traits. He has a lot of other things going for him, and quite a few great ways to work within the confines of his downside, but he's very limited by it, especially since it's kinda the most important stat. It's exclusively a downside for him, unlike the other characters I compared Walter's stat management to, and I wanted to level the playing field on those terms. But, yeah, ultimately, everything about Wormwood revolves around him being a plant. It's why food doesn't heal him to begin with. But from a gameplay-focused perspective, I agree with you, largely, though I'm admittedly biased in that direction as someone who focuses on combat and progress.

(I think most people would legitimately just call him a farmer instinctively, though I disagree with this take other than a little QoL in that department. I was trying to see what they'd say about Wormwood to prod out an answer about what "management" means to them, but they ignored the comparison so I couldn't really get to the point I was trying to get to, which was that I don't know that I'd say Wormwood "manages" his HP so much as he utilizes alternative solutions over healing through food.)

It's just one part of his design, and a player can definitely just avoid crafting any of his items and use other options if they really want to. Wormwood is rewarded with splash damage from his Bramble Armor and ultimately his Lunar Guardian skill, and his need to dodge is complemented by blooming. He can also use a Beefalo and trivialize this downside, too, though he loses Lunar Guardian tendrils post-rift while mounted, and this is ultimately another point I wanted the discussion to arrive at, which is the relationship between workarounds for these flaws and the cohesion with his kit. It didn't get there, though. I mostly wanted to say that Beefalo inherently break a lot of formulas in this game.

Walter just avoids his downside because there's no real benefit to getting off the Beefalo, and nothing in his kit synergizes with close combat other than the sanity aura thing, especially with the slingshot improvements making range significantly more accessible for him. Or he'll just face tank through his downside with Marble Armor and restoratives, or whatever. I brought Wormwood up because Walter's clearly not the same when comparing to other characters who actively do manage sanity for unique reasons, so let's compare him to a character who manages a "different" stat in HP also explicitly as a downside. Wormwood does way more with his "corresponding" stat than Walter does, because...

In the end, Walter's stat that he manages most is actually, surprise, also HP. With a minor in sanity. It's both! Which is a large reason why calling him a sanity management character is inherently wrong from my perspective, and something I've alluded to multiple times. But he doesn't have meaningful differences in how he uses those stats or manages them from normal characters. He doesn't have to do anything differently. His only limitations are auras and clothing, but the primary method to recover is through food to begin with.

Anyways, with the new skills tree, he's kinda turned more into an archer/ranger/similar archetype. His flaws encourage him to stay afar, and he's incentivized to do so using his unique ranged weapon with now-competitive DPS. The problem is that this role just doesn't work effectively in this game where most enemies attack at melee range, and it's straying from his original identity in my opinion and leaning too heavily into just one aspect.

If they commit to this direction, I hope we at least get some world updates that might make his play style more interesting for newer content.