Honestly i cant wait for them to be done with skilltrees.

[Copyafriend]

I actually like the customizability of skilltrees, and i like what it did for characters like winona and willow.

 

But i really hate what it has done to the community. A unfortunately large portion of the community either acts entitled as if the skilltree should perfectly fulfill their exact vision of what the character should be.

Or they act as if klei is somehow being selfish and lazy by not doing a perfect first second or third pass on a character.

 

These skill trees in particular have been so controversial i almost wish klei didnt have to deal with it at all.

 

Klei really tries to communicate clearly and explain exactly what they are planning and how the development is being done, and STILL there are a ton of threads about:

Klei 'isnt giving walter enough attention'

(The different characters are being worked on in parallel)

 

Klei doesnt know the character as well as i do

(They are the creator, they know the character better than you)

 

 

[Character] doesnt fit my exact playstyle

([Character] was not made for you specifically)

 

 

Entire skilltrees should be scrapped

(They have no further explaination about what would be better)

 

 

I want people to post their opinions, because feedback is good, and you're allowed to have any opinion about the skills or skilltree that you want

 

Heck a lot of good changes have come from angry threads about wendy or walter.

 

But can we please have a little more respect and understanding for klei. None of us are a monolith, and one person's opinion is not more important or correct than anothers.

 

If you think that changes should be made, please try to make constructive criticisms, you dont have to suggest solutions necessarily, but be specific about what you dont like so they can try to hone in on your specific problem.

 

And please stop gatekeeping opinions. No, you being a wendy main does not make your opinion more valid than mine as a wormwood main. I play wendy too. And i play with people who main wendy who arent on the forums. I shouldnt have to justify my opinion.

[cyjs]

If klei does what you say, it will not be good for klei，The quarrel will spread from the forum to everywhere, 

[SilverSpoon]

Just now, Fitzee said:

Word on the street is only Wormwood gets that privilege. 

No, Willow and Wigfrid has been updated too.

 

[Master_NiX]

Yep, everyday the same kind of stuff repeats.. "Nerf this inclination, buff this inclination, I dont like how this works, but I also not a team player and I don't play this character either"

Meanwhile me:

Can we get a tail slot for Wortox, I'd like to wear pants, thanks? :<

[Evelo]

I was really hoping Wilson getting the skill tree was going to be the end of it. Since he was the last refresh and that layout gave modders the opportunity to make their own skill trees for other characters if modders desired.

But, nope baseline for everyone. RIP wilson. Never got a refresh.

[_mylilsunshine_]

45 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Klei really tries to communicate clearly and explain exactly what they are planning and how the development is being done, and STILL there are a ton of threads about:

Klei 'isnt giving walter enough attention'

(The different characters are being worked on in parallel)

But can we please have a little more respect and understanding for klei. None of us are a monolith, and one person's opinion is not more important or correct than anothers.

If you think that changes should be made, please try to make constructive criticisms, you dont have to suggest solutions necessarily, but be specific about what you dont like so they can try to hone in on your specific problem.

Gonna pull this part out to respond because I literally just posted about this. Before it was known that different devs work on different characters, and all devs work in parallel, the community had the right to question whether there is adequate effort/attention being put into Walter, seeing how some parts of his skill tree weren't even functional.

After the live stream, and after the responses from Jason, most of the community who keeps up with new info understand their viewpoint and effort. I don't see enough threads saying that "Klei isn't giving Walter enough attention" to warrant being grouped with "a ton". Even in my thread, I didn't really question whether Klei is prioritizing characters, instead I asked whether there is enough effort being put into Walter, seeing how his skill tree is so lacking. It's not even a question of power/how good the tree is, it's about how completed it is when a build is launched for testing.

Anyway, I do agree that Klei's approach to reworking characters through skill tree has divided the community, and while it's disheartening to see, I believe it is important not to fall into a doomer mindset, wishing for things to just be-- over. It's easy to be cynical and assume everyone is arguing in bad faith, therefore, we must be reasonable and rational voices. Communicating through a screen can't quite convey anything either. Hard to tell if the person you're responding to has brain rot or is just really passionate.

Chin up! Also, it's okay to take a break from following discussions. It's kinda like real-world politics: overwhelming. I was passionate at the start of the beta, and now I barely respond or join in threads anymore.

[Master_NiX]

1 minute ago, Evelo said:

I was really hoping Wilson getting the skill tree was going to be the end of it. Since he was the last refresh and that layout gave modders the opportunity to make their own skill trees for other characters if modders desired.

But, nope baseline for everyone. RIP wilson. Never got a refresh.

I feel like Wilson will get a proper refresh whenever the next chapter with Wagstaff drops. After all it is shown in animations that they're working together a bit 

[Steorra]

Klei doesnt know the character as well as i do

(They are the creator, they know the character better than you)

 

Have to argue with this one.

If they do know the character better then there's no need to collecting feedback, Or at least the feedback part would be not more important as how currently it is.

Another debatable evidence about this opinion is that - Players may have created some new play-style which far beyond the original design intention. This already happened in many games before. A game designer would always could hardly to touch the same level of what a hardcore player reached. And another additionally reason regardless is designers are always take responsibility for giving creativity and directing the basic concept of the design, they probably have not enough time to "master" what they designed.

 

After all above, there's no need to talking about that even some our devs don't know how to rowing on a boat I guess. (Yeah they probably have no time for playing and learning those game mechanics because they have more important things to do, which means it's logically that they would lack of game knowledge, and this would resulted a high priority for feedback collecting)

[Mike23Ua]

Under certain circumstances.. you should have to justify your opinions.

And no, I’m not trying to be a jerk about that.. but a player (or developer) needs to understand the in’s and outs of the character to know what is enjoyed about them, and also what isn’t.

Mainly I’m just saying: Please don’t make a suggestion that goes completely against the characters core design.

Giving Wendy a Floral Shroud so she can just AFK and heal Abby by eating healing foods- Depleted the purpose of shield potions and healing Elixers, Depleting the usage of Elixers- Also Deleted the purpose of collecting mourning Glory’s from the Pipspook quests.

Which also depleted most of the (non-decorative) purpose of relocating gravestones or GMB Gravestones when you’re not even using the Pipspook.

Lastly Lunar Abby is a million levels of busted, Klei devs state their intent was to make this intentionally good because the player had to first go through several boss fights to get to it, however: That’s not true in several cases..

you only need to do the CC ONCE and then that powerful skill is unlocked permanently for any sessions you join afterwards.

Why is this so dang important?

Because… if you toggle wild rifts to “on” in settings you still need to go kill the mobs to gather late game resources and create structures like the Bright Smithy to craft Brightshade Swords and Armors.

There seems to be a huge disconnect between the above things that require EFFORT across every play session you join, and then just spawning into the game with the skill already unlocked and useable as early as Day 10.

So yes… sometimes, opinions do matter.

[flamboyant wolf]

1 hour ago, Master_NiX said:

Can we get a tail slot for Wortox, I'd like to wear pants, thanks? :<

Some may say it's hard to make it work, but we all know the real reason that's not possible:

Spoiler

sorry.

[HowlVoid]

If you think entitlement will go away when they're done with skill trees man do i have news for you 

we will whine about ocean updates

boss updates

not enough updates

all updates 

lol

[NotGabriel]

Every day I’ve had this cycle of checking the forums, reading the first few titles, sighing, and kicking myself for checking the forums. 
 

I’m excited for this update to be out, and hopefully Beefalo get a ghost/undead themed skin to accompany Wendy just so I can giggle to myself even more.

Klei are some serious troopers for being able to man this ship

[Kwaik]

The forums haven't been bad in the several years I've been here 

It's just recently the Wendy skill tree somehow motivated seemingly a whole forum in China to post a ton of ( mostly) angry threads on here. 

 

I'm sure some of it is a language barrier, but it's really blown up the forums in a major way 

[Lee lol]

3 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

我实际上喜欢技能树的可定制性，我喜欢它对 winona 和 willow 等角色的作用。

 

但我真的很讨厌它对社区所做的一切。不幸的是，社区的很大一部分要么表现得好像技能树应该完美地实现他们对角色应该是什么的确切愿景。

或者他们表现得好像 klei 在某种程度上自私和懒惰，没有对角色进行完美的第一、第二或第三次传递。

 

特别是这些技能树一直如此有争议，我几乎希望 klei 根本不需要处理它。

 

Klei 真的试图清楚地沟通并准确解释他们的计划以及开发是如何完成的，并且仍然有大量的帖子关于：

克莱“没有给予沃尔特足够的关注”

（不同的角色正在并行处理中）

 

Klei 不如我了解这个角色

（他们是创作者，他们比你更了解角色）

 

 

[角色] 不适合我的确切游戏风格

（[角色] 不是专门为你制作的）

 

 

整个技能树都应该被废弃

（他们没有进一步解释什么会更好）

 

 

我希望人们发表他们的意见，因为反馈很好，你可以对你想要的技能或技能树有任何意见

 

哎呀，很多好的改变都来自对 wendy 或 walter 的愤怒帖子。

 

但是我们能否请对 klei 多一点尊重和理解。我们没有人是铁板一块，一个人的观点并不比另一个人更重要或更正确。

 

如果您认为应该做出更改，请尝试提出建设性的批评，您不必非必要地提出解决方案，但要具体说明您不喜欢的地方，以便他们可以尝试解决您的具体问题。

 

请停止把关意见。不，你是 wendy 主教并不能让你的观点比我作为 Wormwood Main 的观点更有效。我也扮演 wendy。我和不在论坛上的主要 wendy 的人一起玩。我不应该证明我的观点是合理的。

I'm not saying that only people who are well-versed in Wendy should judge Wendy, but gaming experience does sometimes matter, and if you don't know anything about something, you should be cautious about commenting, or at least do some research. If you didn't play with Wendy's post-rift content and just fought spiders, you'd think she's still very powerful.
I don't want to repeat the question about strength, it's been talked about a lot, and now Wendy's skill tree is strong, but strong doesn't mean good. Being strong doesn't mean her skill tree doesn't need to be done with care.
Why I think designers don't play games, just look at the petal transformations and shroud designs. What is the use of turning demon petals into petals? The Shroud is designed to allow the player to stand and press F without moving, but the boss after the rift simply cannot be solved in this way. There are many similar examples, such as the designer thinks to solve Wendy's problem with the Shadow Monster, he thinks that Wendy doesn't need to fight the Shadow Monster as long as she keeps her high san, and can make nightmare fuel from the Demon Petals, in fact, Wendy has no shortage of means to return to the San, the Queen Bee Hat, the Banana, the Crown of Enlightenment, and she doesn't need to use the Demon Petals as fuel, she can easily obtain it through the Shadow Monkey.

[Szczuku]

5 hours ago, Master_NiX said:

After all it is shown in animations that they're working together a bit 

Oh please, it wouldn't be the first time that Klei introduced something 'important' and then promptly left it to rot

By getting your hopes up, you're only setting yourself up for disappointment

[Echsrick]

4 hours ago, flamboyant wolf said:

Some may say it's hard to make it work, but we all know the real reason that's not possible:

  Hide contents

sorry.

thanks

[whiteking]

7 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

Klei doesnt know the character as well as i do

(They are the creator, they know the character better than you)

Stupid idea.
A game is created by several to several hundred people, and played by thousands or even millions or even billions of people. There are a large number of game experts among players who are tens of thousands of times more than game developers, and they can discover the limits of each character.
If developers have a better understanding of games than players, then the game developers should be the ones who win the championship in the competition every year.

4 hours ago, Kwaik said:

The forums haven't been bad in the several years I've been here 

It's just recently the Wendy skill tree somehow motivated seemingly a whole forum in China to post a ton of ( mostly) angry threads on here. 

 

I'm sure some of it is a language barrier, but it's really blown up the forums in a major way 

In fact, it also happened last year.
From the proportion of players, Chinese players do make up an absolute majority, so it doesn't seem strange that their comments bombard forums when they want to express their opinions.
Perhaps what should be considered strange is, "Why does a player group that occupies an absolute majority rarely appear on KLEI's forums

[Hollow soul 3]

8 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

Klei doesnt know the character as well as i do

(They are the creator, they know the character better than you)

So I think they probably know PC wortox pretty well, but I would be shocked if anyone from Klei knows console wortox very well.

[cropo]

18 minutes ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

So I think they probably know PC wortox pretty well, but I would be shocked if anyone from Klei knows console wortox very well.

I'd actually like to possibly disagree on the idea that Klei "knows their character better than the players do".  There is a track record of Klei grossly failing to realize the capabilities of their playerbase when balancing content, and really any game developer is the same. Do you think half of the people who designed Elden Ring could beat it or know full-well how to balance it in one go?


That being said, the sentiment OP makes is fine.

[Dingle]

9 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

No, Willow and Wigfrid has been updated too.

 

You: "Wigfrid got updated, too, guys!"

Patch Notes: "BATTLE STINGER LASTS FOR 2 MORE SECONDS"

9 hours ago, Master_NiX said:

Yep, everyday the same kind of stuff repeats.. "Nerf this inclination, buff this inclination, I dont like how this works, but I also not a team player and I don't play this character either"

Meanwhile me:

Can we get a tail slot for Wortox, I'd like to wear pants, thanks? :<

Those threads were fun. No joke, someone was posting long dissertations on Wortox this beta, and then it became clear they had never played the beta because they posted impossible builds. Not sure if they possibly never even played Wortox, I haven't figured that part out yet.

[Copyafriend]

I'm gonna respond to a few counterpoints in a minute. But first i really want to highlight:

 

The main point of this thread is to complain about toxicity. If your first reaction is to argue...

you might be part of the problem.

 

The most common one i noticed is:

 

"I DO in fact know the character better than klei, how dare you"

 

Klei gets feedback from hundreds of players including you, and designed the original character. Not to mention every developer has significant playtime themselves. They know a lot about the character. Even if you theoretically have done research and DO understand [character] better than the developers, that means nothing.

You are one person, the developers are not catering to you specifically. Your ideas are one in a hundred. If klei is not following your specific desires for the update, then they just disagree with you. They make the decisions, and they are allowed to disagree with the direction you want to take [character] in. They are not developers who have never played the character before. They know plenty to make good plans and execute them.

The point is not specifically that they know more about the mechanics of the characters than you. They know more about the lore and the intentions for the character than you. They often design the skilltree with that stuff in mind.

Chill out please.

 

"Opinions should be gatekept" (paraphrasing)

Every opinion is equally valid. All of them. If someone has only played wendy for 2 hours, their opinion is useful when considering new players. If the player has played other characters but never touched wendy, its useful when considering people who are interested in playing wendy. If its someone who has been playing wendy for 9000 hours, its useful when discussing extremely experienced players.

But each of those players experiences should be equally prioritized. You dont want to drive off any individual player and you need to provide something to each. 

 

Every player is individually equally as important as other players. Therefore their opinions are also equally important. Yes experienced players will probably make suggestions with more of wendy in mind, but that does not mean their suggestion has more merit. Klei already exists as a filter for opinions, bad opinions wont be implemented as is. Good ones probably wont either.

Its very rare that klei actually implements a suggestion as suggested, but they often take inspiration from suggestions.

Keep that in mind and please try to be more welcoming to new forumgoers. Gatekeeping is a bad look for all of us.

 

 

 

[Dingle]

4 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

I'm gonna respond to a few counterpoints in a minute. But first i really want to highlight:

 

The main point of this thread is to complain about toxicity. If your first reaction is to argue...

you might be part of the problem.

 

The most common one i noticed is:

 

"I DO in fact know the character better than klei, how dare you"

 

Klei gets feedback from hundreds of players including you, and designed the original character. Not to mention every developer has significant playtime themselves. They know a lot about the character. Even if you theoretically have done research and DO understand [character] better than the developers, that means nothing.

You are one person, the developers are not catering to you specifically. Your ideas are one in a hundred. If klei is not following your specific desires for the update, then they just disagree with you. They make the decisions, and they are allowed to disagree with the direction you want to take [character] in. They are not developers who have never played the character before. They know plenty to make good plans and execute them.

The point is not specifically that they know more about the mechanics of the characters than you. They know more about the lore and the intentions for the character than you. They often design the skilltree with that stuff in mind.

Chill out please.

 

"Opinions should be gatekept" (paraphrasing)

Every opinion is equally valid. All of them. If someone has only played wendy for 2 hours, their opinion is useful when considering new players. If the player has played other characters but never touched wendy, its useful when considering people who are interested in playing wendy. If its someone who has been playing wendy for 9000 hours, its useful when discussing extremely experienced players.

But each of those players experiences should be equally prioritized. You dont want to drive off any individual player and you need to provide something to each. 

 

Every player is individually equally as important as other players. Therefore their opinions are also equally important. Yes experienced players will probably make suggestions with more of wendy in mind, but that does not mean their suggestion has more merit. Klei already exists as a filter for opinions, bad opinions wont be implemented as is. Good ones probably wont either.

Its very rare that klei actually implements a suggestion as suggested, but they often take inspiration from suggestions.

Keep that in mind and please try to be more welcoming to new forumgoers. Gatekeeping is a bad look for all of us.

 

 

 

So on "all opinions are equally valid", no line drawn there whatsoever for character specific perk betas? Why not just accept the opinions of people that have never played the game, at that point?

We shouldn't gatekeep the opinions of people that never played Don't Starve, but maybe saw a picture of Wendy at some point. They should come in here and post long essays on what they think of the Wendy perk tree beta.

[Master_NiX]

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

You: "Wigfrid got updated, too, guys!"

Patch Notes: "BATTLE STINGER LASTS FOR 2 MORE SECONDS"

Those threads were fun. No joke, someone was posting long dissertations on Wortox this beta, and then it became clear they had never played the beta because they posted impossible builds. Not sure if they possibly never even played Wortox, I haven't figured that part out yet.

Fr, I am tired of people saying That "one" inclination (the passive for having majority itself) is too OP and needs another downside.

Those passives are close enough to each other, if anything, I'd say that "middle" tree of both inclinations could get some changes instead.

Some QoLs and Controller controls are mor important than screwing both trees by those who dont play or rather wont play him after beta.

[Copyafriend]

22 minutes ago, Dingle said:

So on "all opinions are equally valid", no line drawn there whatsoever for character specific perk betas? Why not just accept the opinions of people that have never played the game, at that point?

We shouldn't gatekeep the opinions of people that never played Don't Starve, but maybe saw a picture of Wendy at some point. They should come in here and post long essays on what they think of the Wendy perk tree beta.

Yes. We do accept the opinions of people who have never played dont starve. If the opinion is bad it just wont get implemented. You cant prove the other person hasnt played for 100 or a thousand hours, so you're just assuming thet havent.

 

This is not a hard concept to grasp. Being rude about other people having opinions is inherently bad. You are in no position to decide if someones opinion is good or bad so you should let klei do their job and ignore any opinions you dont like.

[Echsrick]

1 hour ago, Copyafriend said:

Yes. We do accept the opinions of people who have never played dont starve. If the opinion is bad it just wont get implemented. You cant prove the other person hasnt played for 100 or a thousand hours, so you're just assuming thet havent.

 

This is not a hard concept to grasp. Being rude about other people having opinions is inherently bad. You are in no position to decide if someones opinion is good or bad so you should let klei do their job and ignore any opinions you dont like.

so just imagine i have no idea what dontstarve is, me, a person not knowing anything comes in here, and talks about how that character sould have infinity hunger

do you seriously belive that someone with no idea what hes talkin about sould be taken seriously?