Bionic Duplicant + Atmo Suit = No Dock Needed (Bionic Weakness Discussion)

[SamLogan]

Hello,

I really enjoy the new DLC, I've only play with 100% Bionic Duplicants Colony since the cycle 1 and I feel it's not logic they have all the weakness of a classic Duplicant.

Bionic is exposed to :

- Cold / Heat at the same level of a Duplicant -> Legit but should be more resistant.

- Germs -> Legit as they can evacuate it through Gunk.

- Water electrocution -> Legit

- Burst eardrum -> Not Legit, they should be to be immune, they have microphone instead of biogical ears.

- Eye irritation -> Not Legit, they should be to be immune, they have camera instead of biogical eyes.

I feel it's pretty weird to equip a Bionic Duplicant with an Atmo Suit, This takes away the whole point of having a bionic Duplicant with an oxygen reserve but unfortunately this is mandatory to exploit the oil biome.

 

So to avoid simply all this conditions, just wear an Atmo Suit. You don't need dock as Bionic Duplicant have Oxygen Reservoir.

No durability as you don't underwear it, you can keep it permanently.

Bionic Duplicant with an Atmo Suit can use : Gunk Extractor, Lubrification Station and get oxygen from bottle.

[speckle21]

Rather than a bug, this should be a feature! give the option on their control panel to "perma-equip exosuit" so they can work alongside regular dupes in exosuits but simply ignore the docks unlike regular dupes.

 

 

[Tigin]

This seems somewhat of an extension of the notorious atmos-suit unlimited breathing exploit. Perhaps this will be the trigger to finally fix that bug

[Carib94]

This could be the atmo suit bug on the bionic dupes. Let me ask tho when the suit is full of oxygen do the bionic dupes eat that oxygen in the suit when their reserves finish?

Ive said in a thread that talks about having bionic dupes skill trees and I suggested that bionic dupes should have a skill tree that provides water/cold and heat resistance and eventually full immunity to heat and cold.

[StarvingAngler]

Ha, that's actually pretty cool how bionics can wear suits infinitely with no changes besides gaining the temperature, water, and irritation resilience of having one, albeit maybe a bit too powerful.

[gigamoi]

Perhaps they should make it so that worn suits end up falling when worn for too long past their complete loss of durability. Things would still mostly function the same but this exploit would no longer work.

[Henlikuoth]

I must agree (mostly) with this thread.

Bionic dupes should not be required to wear Atmo suits. That should be reserved for normal (fully biological) dupes only.

This undermines the very idea of bionic dupes, who are supposed to thrive in hostile environments only relying on their bionic boosters and technology. They already have an integrated oxygen tank and visible bionic features.

They should have the following:

1. 50% resistance to heat and cold

2. Immunity to popped eardrums and all forms of eye irritation

3. Immunity to germs

The weaknesses of bionic dupes should lie elsewhere, namely in their inability to increase skills naturally by simply doing them and their greater vulnerability to fluids than normal dupes.

Seeing the bionic dupes in full Atmo suits, even if they don't contain oxygen, is nonsensical. It should even be impossible for bionic dupes to wear suits (or masks) since it violates their reliance on their bionic features. 

[asurendra]

Bionics already better than normal duplicants in any means. Removing need in atmosuits entirely will break game technology scale and make bunch of resources totally useless. Also it will make organic dupes something unnecessary and bad. And thats  not the best idea IMHO

[StarvingAngler]

2 hours ago, Henlikuoth said:

Immunity to germs

They actually partly already have this. Bionics do not eat normal food, and I have not tested if food poisoning covered power banks can infect them, but I find it unlikely to get food poisoning power banks in the first place. None of them can get allergies, as far as I know, and to be honest I kinda hope the devs add a negative trait called filter malfunction or something similar that causes them to be vulnerable to allergies. Since bionics should primarily be getting their oxygen from bottled sources, they are also highly unlikely to expose themselves to any slimelung tor zombie spores. I actually have never even come across a scenario in which my bionics have been exposed to germs in the first place, so I have no clue if they even can get infected, but I actually hope they can get infected, as diseases are already often overlooked and having something that just invalidates them would be ridiculous, not to mention that bionics are bionic, meaning they have some biological components that could get infected, hence their waste providing food poisoning, as just like normal dupes, they got tons of microbes and biological waste that they remove when they de-gunk.

2 hours ago, Henlikuoth said:

It should even be impossible for bionic dupes to wear suits (or masks) since it violates their reliance on their bionic features. 

Sorry, but I don't quite get the thought process for this quote. Nothing in a bionic violates the ability to use a suit. In fact, bionic features should probably support the use of a suit, as it makes sense to cover up your bionics instead of letting them be exposed to the raw elements, especially due to their water vulnerability. Not to mention that even non-biological machines need shielding to resist strong radiation, and these bionics have bionic components that are also vulnerable, so lead suits should almost certainly not be incompatible, but you never said bionics should be immune to radiation anyways.

I do however, completely understand the sentiment of having more boosters in order to replicate some features that suits have, such as temperature resilience and such, but I do not feel that bionics should invalidate the need for suits.

[Henlikuoth]

1 hour ago, StarvingAngler said:

...

About the immunity: Bionics should, by definition, be able to thrive in hostile environments better than normal dupes. That also entails a much better surviving in areas with germs.

However, if you want to point out that bionics are at least partially biological and thus at least somewhat vulnerable to germs, I agree with that.

In that case, I think the bionics should at least get an increased resistance against germs, maybe an inherent +2. That would give them longer times without getting sick, but sometimes they would still catch a disease and need medical treatment. That would be a good balanced solution.

I would be fine with that.

1 hour ago, StarvingAngler said:

thought process

With regard to the Atmo suits:

Bionics have an integrated oxygen tank that they use, especially in hostile environments with toxic gases. An Atmo suits violates both the built-in oxygen tank as well as the sci-fi idea of bionics who rely on their bionic technology instead of external suits. What is the oxygen tank for? It's for using it independently from other sources. It just needs to be refilled once in a while at specific stations.

The Atmo suits are meant for the regular dupes, fully biological dupes who need it.

1 hour ago, StarvingAngler said:

radiation

About radiation: 

Only because I didn't mention it above, it doesn't mean I ignore it. It's just a different topic.

I would argue that bionics should have an innate resistance against radiation, maybe also 50%. That would allow them to work in radiation environments longer, but still be affected after a longer time. Maybe that is a good middle way solution. 

[asurendra]

Technically radiation are extremely dangerous to electric mechanisms. Cause errors, unexpected signals etc. So logically bionics should suffer from it much more than regular dupes

[StarvingAngler]

1 hour ago, Henlikuoth said:

About the immunity: Bionics should, by definition, be able to thrive in hostile environments better than normal dupes. That also entails a much better surviving in areas with germs.

However, if you want to point out that bionics are at least partially biological and thus at least somewhat vulnerable to germs, I agree with that.

In that case, I think the bionics should at least get an increased resistance against germs, maybe an inherent +2. That would give them longer times without getting sick, but sometimes they would still catch a disease and need medical treatment. That would be a good balanced solution.

I would be fine with that.

With regard to the Atmo suits:

Bionics have an integrated oxygen tank that they use, especially in hostile environments with toxic gases. An Atmo suits violates both the built-in oxygen tank as well as the sci-fi idea of bionics who rely on their bionic technology instead of external suits. What is the oxygen tank for? It's for using it independently from other sources. It just needs to be refilled once in a while at specific stations.

The Atmo suits are meant for the regular dupes, fully biological dupes who need it.

About radiation: 

Only because I didn't mention it above, it doesn't mean I ignore it. It's just a different topic.

I would argue that bionics should have an innate resistance against radiation, maybe also 50%. That would allow them to work in radiation environments longer, but still be affected after a longer time. Maybe that is a good middle way solution. 

Alright, I see your thought process a lot better now. Feedback seems pretty good and valid. Albeit, you don't really need the validation of a random person on the internet.

[Henlikuoth]

Quick addition:

If you insist that bionics should wear Atmo suits sometimes, you must address some other problems:

1. Could a bionic theoretically wear an Atmo suit for all eternity? The suit could stay on the body of the bionic, eliminating all need for maintenance. 

2. Will bionics put down the helmet if they want to breathe and refill their internal tanks? Will they remove the helmet temporarily when consuming an oxygen canister?

3. The bionics would get all the benefits of an Atmo suit but none of its downsides. 

Klei should find a way to address these issues. 

[GluttonyMain]

Their suit should all off once durability is low. They should not avoid maintanance.

[asurendra]

3 hours ago, GluttonyMain said:

Their suit should all off once durability is low. They should not avoid maintanance.

That will cause them to lost suit when they are inside steam room. Leading to fast death.

[Henlikuoth]

In my view, bionics should be completely forbidden to use suits or masks, by design.

To prevent them to go into a steam room, or something similar, the respective doors can be locked for them only.

That would finally be a reason to use the name-based door-locking function more in the game. 

[NeoDeusMachina]

18 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

In my view, bionics should be completely forbidden to use suits or masks, by design.

To prevent them to go into a steam room

No thanks - then this approach would more or less force everyone to use a mix of dupes, which is kind of lame. It's a paid DLC, I hope they are made viable on their own, with their pros/cons, whatever those end up to be.

[Henlikuoth]

5 minutes ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

mix of dupes

Exactly what is good and intended.

[NeoDeusMachina]

11 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

Exactly what is good and intended.

Based on your interpretation. I don't mean to open that can of worm again, but how do you know -this- is intended? So far, we have more often than not been given options and the players are free to play however they want. If they make a paid DLC with bionics dupe, I'd sure hope I would be able to choose to run a bionic only colony.

[Henlikuoth]

3 minutes ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

interpretation

It is obvious based on the mechanics and designs.

Both regular and bionic dupes have their unique strengths and weaknesses. They are supposed to complement each other and work together as a team.

Bionics cannot level their skills and react much more sensitively to fluids, for example. Normal dupes, by comparison, need to eat and sleep.

It is not a wild interpretation to assume that they are intended to work together and form a coherent whole as a colony. 

[NeoDeusMachina]

3 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

It is obvious based on the mechanics and designs.

Both regular and bionic dupes have their unique strengths and weaknesses. They are supposed to complement each other and work together as a team.

Bionics cannot level their skills and react much more sensitively to fluids, for example. Normal dupes, by comparison, need to eat and sleep.

It is not a wild interpretation to assume that they are intended to work together and form a coherent whole as a colony. 

Normal dupes form a coherent whole as a colony, they always have and always will. Never felt like I needed bionic dupes for my colonies to work well and be coherent. So I'm not sure what you believe is so obvious, it's not to me. Can they complement each other? Of course - but so can normal dupes. Why should we assume it is wrong to have only bionic dupes?

Anyway, this is getting nowhere, my opinion is what it is and I'm not convinced by your arguments, sorry. Did not mean to pick a fight, just meant to express a different pov. Let's see what happens with the bionics, I'll be happy either way.

[Henlikuoth]

1 minute ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

always have and always will

Bionic dupes are now a new addition to the game. I never said that normal dupes did not form a coherent whole before that.

But now, the bionic dupes must be integrated, not 100% replacing regular ones.

If bionic dupes are, for example, incapable of wearing suits and masks by design, then that is part of their unique make-up as bionics. And the player has to find ways to deal with that appropriately.

Also, I did not intend to convince you. I just expressed some ideas about what might be good for the game. 

The development is still ongoing. So, let's see what Klei will do eventually. 

[gigamoi]

If having the atmo suits fall off after a while when durability is null is impractical to code, perhaps a severe speed debuff to oiling up and gunk removal would  be enough to deter players from just keeping bionics in atmo suits at all time. It may be easier to implement and it thematically fits since doing both those things with a suit on would be impractical "IRL".

[speckle21]

Personally i'm leaning toward that it should be possible to have 100% bionics in a colony. But to make it fun/balanced/interesting they should have different challenges and drawbacks and they should require a separate support infrastructure.

Regular dupes require food, toilets, air, sleep, and entertainment/morale. 

Bionic dupes seem to have less requirements. Remember how much bloody work it was to get good food infrastructure going? Power infrastructure for bionics seems much more straightforward. Rather than count calories, determine temperature ranges, find seeds, ranch critters, make a sterile low temp fridge... we just have to build batteries. 

I'm not sure how to expand their game play, but you get my reasoning. It would be fun if they are just as complicated as regular dupes, and just as capable.

I would lean away from completely nerfing them and making them less capable, like denying their use in steam rooms because they can't use suits. Because if they are less capable, there is less incentive to use them at all when we already have regular dupes and their support infrastructure. 

If they are simpler and less capable, then they are boring robots. Like sweepy, very simple, does only one task, and i almost never use sweepy because my dupes already handle its jobs. Autosweeper is similar, i like it and i use it, but it's boring.

If we're going to have a whole DLC that i PAY for, i'd like it to be more than just a robot that looks like a dupe. I want a Bionic dupe! Just as capable, but with a completely different set of support infrastructure and mechanics so i have a new challenge.

If i choose to go 100% regular dupes, i'll spend 10 hours building out their infrastructure. If i go 100% bionics, i'd like to also spend 10 hours building out their infrastructure. If i go both, i'd like to spend 15 hours since there is overlap. 

If the bionics are simpler, but just as capable, then they sort of become OP since there is no incentive to use regular dupes. I'd like to lean away from that. 

Their nerfs, like oversensitivity to water, should be strong enough to encourage using a mixture of regular dupes and bionics, but shouldn't be too punishing to FORCE you to use one or the other. I'd like to be able to go 100% bionics if I take the time to deal with the nerfs, but if i'm an optimization fanatic, and most of us are, then using both is encouraged.

This is why i'd like the bionics to use more power, maybe to make it easier they should use another 200 watts for every chip installed. So a base bionic just needs 200, but a full blown terminator bionic needs 1600. Power infrastructure for most colonies isn't that big, but if you needs lots of power, it can be huge and complicated. And can approach the size and complication of food infrastructure on the upper scales.

At that point bionics can be just a fun as regular dupes, they have different requirements and are better at different things, but give you similar hours of enjoyment.

At least thats how i see it. I like that bionics need lube and you have to remove their... umm.... gunk..... its a new support infrastructure that tries to make up for their lack of food/sleep infrastructure requirements. 

[GluttonyMain]

10 hours ago, asurendra said:

That will cause them to lost suit when they are inside steam room. Leading to fast death.

I guess they could shed the suit when degunking or something, but they should not avoid maintenance.