Walter's new ammos are rather underwhelming (+ general feedback (apology for setting woby on fire?!))

[Catuna_]

This hotfix has brought many changes to Walter, as well as additions to his arsenal of ammos which I think are currently surprisingly enough all a fair bit undertuned... with the exception of the mighty icker rounds.
For this post I will be using the slingshot with the scrappy frame (for infinite ammo as I need to fire for quite a bit for the DPS to properly average out), the void grip and the cat tail range upgrade (although this doesn't matter for the test). DPS is obtained via the training dummy mod.
If there's any additions or extra feedback you'd like to contribute to the post or especially wrong information that needs to be corrected that would be quite nice.

Thulecite rounds (left) vs Brightshade rounds (right)

The way that brightshade rounds work as far as I can gather, is that there's a counter that starts from 1-4 for the first shot, then 3-5 for every subsequent reset, decreasing by 1 for every shot you take until it reaches 0, at which point a tunneling vine will spawn dealing 85 (70 physical + 15 planar) damage to your target swiftly before disappearing and the counter resets.
The issue with that is that tunneling vines spawn too slowly for the brightshade rounds to really outpace the thulecite rounds, which despite their more inconsistent nature still manage to at the very least keep up.
We're talking about an ammo that you can get quite early prototype-able in the ruins vs an ammo that requires beating celestial champion and starting and tackling the lunar rift... I expected quite an uplift, and while I understand not wanting the slingshot to outpace melee weapons, I don't understand making them on par with a pre-rift round. Yes they have planar, but I don't think that's a valid excuse when planar melee weapons out-do every non-character exclusive pre-rift option for damage.

How would I buff it? Decrease the counter from 4/5 max to 3/4 max, making the worst case scenario for a tunneling vine to spawn not nearly as bad. Alternatively, be accurate to the item's description "Ensnare your enemies" and make it so that the tunneling vine will now grip onto your target, making them unable to move for 1s or until they are attacked by any source of damage so that we avoid complex boss designs.

Marble rounds (left) vs Horror rounds (right)

This one is quite unfortunate, as Horror rounds were hit with quite a crippling 27 base damage (17 damage physical + 10 planar), the way that Horror rounds work is that each round will stick a parasite onto your target, up to a maximum of 3. These parasites will attack independently of each other, attacking immediately once they stick and then attacking for an additional 4 times every 2s for 10 planar damage and then disappearing. The extremely low damage of this round causes this ammo to be quite underwhelming as it's in an awkward spot where it's just barely better for single target than marble ammo (and thus worse than thulecite, shockscrap, brightshade, etc.) and in the context of the thulecite frame completely outdone by moonglass for AoE.

How would I buff it? These rounds will now cause any mob hit by them to panic for their duration, this can be tuned down to only applying with 2+ parasites, or left as is. This would create a very good synergy between the Thulecite frame and the Horror rounds.

Dreadstone, Gunpowder and Shockscrap rounds (left -> right)

I'm grouping these together, as they function essentially in the exact same way of just being a very high damage ammo (with the exception of Gunpowder rounds which have a 5% base chance to explode increasing by 5% for every subsequent shot to double in damage and deal that damage in an AoE, triggering this chance will cause a 5s lockout where this can't happen again.). There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but the fact is that shockscrap and dreadstone in particular remain more expensive/costlier ammos while still being a far cry from outpacing thulecite rounds, with shockscrap's wet target damage of 74.375 being unable to break damage breakpoints for 150hp mobs and such and requiring saffron feathers. Gunpowder rounds have the possibility of exploding in an AoE and are meant to be a more fun bullet, which I can understand and get behind.

How would I buff them?

• Dreadstone rounds: lean into dreadstone's regenerating property, causing them to regenerate at the cost of sanity after breaking and ricocheting to the next target, or hitting the same target again.
• Gunpowder rounds: add the ability to use them for work with a chance to crit said work, make them instakill snurtles/slurtles and cause the explosion to deaggro mobs for a little bit just to make the explosion feel a bit more impactful, amplifying their fun in my opinion.
• Shockscrap rounds: Increase the electric modifier from the current 1.75x to the classic 2.5x enabling them to do 106.25 damage per pellet, allowing walter to have a costlier and more rewarding situational ammo with his highest potential damage.

Pure brilliance rounds

No comparison this time because this is quite the unique ammo, and I understand the idea and the potential and appeal of a damage amping mechanic. However, 5 planar damage is just far too low, especially with the restriction of it only being caused by planar damage. It kind of reminds me of Wigfrid's affinity song +5% damage boost... It's, really insignificant. I understand the intention of this being procced by each player causing the damage bonus to rack up further, but at that point the mark damage is still insignificant compared to the actual damage the player(s) are dealing.

How would I buff it? Increase Walter's personal boost to 10/15 and/or make it proc'd by any weapon. This will make it feel more impactful, without removing the identity of the ammo.
 

Extra notes/critiques:

• Walter's possession of 3 slowing ammos is rather weird, I'd much prefer if he was able to craft different ammos with different utility that are distinct from slows...
• Walter's stinger rounds are a dead slot as soon as you go to lunar now that he can prototype moonglass rounds, I'm all for new player accomodation but if this is the case couldn't the ammo get buffed to not be bad even disregarding other ammos? Or merge it with the skill for moonglass or add it to base kit.
• In a similar vein, Walter's sticky grip upgrade is rather useless, and for a middle ground between veteran/experienced players and new players I think that the handle should instead be moved into the slingshot modder kit skill, which also unlocks things like the bone frame. That way both parties are satisfied.
• Walter's scrappy upgrade is rather bad, I think the charge-up time should be reduced to make it a more potent upgrade. I love the scrappier frame, though. It really makes me excited for the idea of more frames.
• The lack of mid-game slingshot grip upgrades is rather unfortunate, I think more could be nice.
• Walter's affinities being post-rifts only is quite sad...
• Projectile pro 2 could have a distinct effect from Projectile pro 1, such as giving Walter an innate fire rate buff as to differentiate the two perks.
• Woby's bravery and support badges should be reworked imo, or at least merged, as they take up too much space/time just for Woby to still be worse than a beefalo. It'd be better if they were perks that make her stand out, instead
• It's rather odd that Walter has no perks for himself as a boyscout, badges are only awarded after accomplishing the tasks, so this could be done like Wigfrid's left side affinities.
• No pinetree pioneer hat upgrade which counts as armor is also rather odd. It's a pretty big complaint with Walter.
• woby skins pleas

 

hot dog (sory wob)

[_mylilsunshine_]

Thank you for the data! Really interesting to know that both Brightshade and Gunpowder effects are not entirely RNG. It's also disheartening to fully understand that the entirety of Walter's ammo arsenal is essentially the same, literally no difference between pre vs. post-Rift. Please tell us this is not the end of Walter? @V2C

You did mention that Horror round's base damage is 27, when I was testing, I got 37 + 10x4 tick of damage when I shot a normal punching bag. Do you mind verifying this fact?

And yes, if Beefalo can have skins, then so can Woby. I desperately need her to have a winter coat to go along with my winter outfit. Please please please please--

[Catuna_]

Just now, _mylilsunshine_ said:

Thank you for the data! Really interesting to know that both Brightshade and Gunpowder effects are not entirely RNG. It's also disheartening to fully understand that the entirety of Walter's ammo arsenal is essentially the same, literally no difference between pre vs. post-Rift. Please tell us this is not the end of Walter? @V2C

You did mention that Horror round's base damage is 27, when I was testing, I got 37 + 11x3 tick of damage when I shot a normal punching bag. Do you mind verifying this fact?

It's 27 damage! But the parasites that attach to the target deal 10 damage from sticking onto them apologies for the confusion I definitely should've added that as a note.

[Radicaljoe]

I'm still hoping they add electric arcing for shock scrap. The bullet looks so unstable, surely it would release some of that extra energy to nearby targets too.

[_mylilsunshine_]

11 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

It's 27 damage! But the parasites that attach to the target deal 10 damage from sticking onto them apologies for the confusion I definitely should've added that as a note.

I do know about the DOT effect/parasite, I meant the initial hit of the Horror round, which I believe deals 37 damage (just hopped in a game and shot, with an HP bar mod, the punching bag also showed 37). Also nice variation in outfits, do you mind sharing your favorite lol

4 minutes ago, Radicaljoe said:

I'm still hoping they add electric arcing for shock scrap. The bullet looks so unstable, surely it would release some of that extra energy to nearby targets too.

We already have 2.5 AoE rounds, Stinger (ew), Moonglass, and Gunpowder. Having another round for crowd control seems excessive when there are plenty of other effects to have.

[Mysterious box]

15 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

This hotfix has brought many changes to Walter, as well as additions to his arsenal of ammos which I think are currently surprisingly enough all a fair bit undertuned... with the exception of the mighty icker rounds.
For this post I will be using the slingshot with the scrappy frame (for infinite ammo as I need to fire for quite a bit for the DPS to properly average out), the void grip and the cat tail range upgrade (although this doesn't matter for the test). DPS is obtained via the training dummy mod.
If there's any additions or extra feedback you'd like to contribute to the post or especially wrong information that needs to be corrected that would be quite nice.

Thulecite rounds (left) vs Brightshade rounds (right)

The way that brightshade rounds work as far as I can gather, is that there's a counter that starts from 1-4 for the first shot, then 3-5 for every subsequent reset, decreasing by 1 for every shot you take until it reaches 0, at which point a tunneling vine will spawn dealing 85 (70 physical + 15 planar) damage to your target swiftly before disappearing and the counter resets.
The issue with that is that tunneling vines spawn too slowly for the brightshade rounds to really outpace the thulecite rounds, which despite their more inconsistent nature still manage to at the very least keep up.
We're talking about an ammo that you can get quite early prototype-able in the ruins vs an ammo that requires beating celestial champion and starting and tackling the lunar rift... I expected quite an uplift, and while I understand not wanting the slingshot to outpace melee weapons, I don't understand making them on par with a pre-rift round. Yes they have planar, but I don't think that's a valid excuse when planar melee weapons out-do every non-character exclusive pre-rift option for damage.

How would I buff it? Decrease the counter from 4/5 max to 3/4 max, making the worst case scenario for a tunneling vine to spawn not nearly as bad. Alternatively, be accurate to the item's description "Ensnare your enemies" and make it so that the tunneling vine will now grip onto your target, making them unable to move for 1s or until they are attacked by any source of damage so that we avoid complex boss designs.

Marble rounds (left) vs Horror rounds (right)

This one is quite unfortunate, as Horror rounds were hit with quite a crippling 27 base damage (17 damage physical + 10 planar), the way that Horror rounds work is that each round will stick a parasite onto your target, up to a maximum of 3. These parasites will attack independently of each other, attacking immediately once they stick and then attacking for an additional 4 times every 2s for 10 planar damage and then disappearing. The extremely low damage of this round causes this ammo to be quite underwhelming as it's in an awkward spot where it's just barely better for single target than marble armor (and thus worse than thulecite, shockscrap, brightshade, etc.) and in the context of the thulecite frame completely outdone by moonglass for AoE.

How would I buff it? These rounds will now cause any mob hit by them to panic for their duration, this can be tuned down to only applying with 2+ parasites, or left as is. This would create a very good synergy between the Thulecite frame and the Horror rounds.

Dreadstone, Gunpowder and Shockscrap rounds (left -> right)

I'm grouping these together, as they function essentially in the exact same way of just being a very high damage ammo (with the exception of Gunpowder rounds which have a 5% base chance to explode increasing by 5% for every subsequent shot to double in damage and deal that damage in an AoE, triggering this chance will cause a 5s lockout where this can't happen again.). There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but the fact is that shockscrap and dreadstone in particular remain more expensive/costlier ammos while still being a far cry from outpacing thulecite rounds, with shockscrap's wet target damage of 74.375 being unable to break damage breakpoints for 150hp mobs and such and requiring saffron feathers. Gunpowder rounds have the possibility of exploding in an AoE and are meant to be a more fun bullet, which I can understand and get behind.

How would I buff them?

• Dreadstone rounds: lean into dreadstone's regenerating property, causing them to regenerate at the cost of sanity after breaking and ricocheting to the next target, or hitting the same target again.
• Gunpowder rounds: add the ability to use them for work with a chance to crit said work, make them instakill snurtles/slurtles and cause the explosion to deaggro mobs for a little bit just to make the explosion feel a bit more impactful, amplifying their fun in my opinion.
• Shockscrap rounds: Increase the electric modifier from the current 1.75x to the classic 2.5x enabling them to do 106.25 damage per pellet, allowing walter to have a costlier and more rewarding situational ammo with his highest potential damage.

Pure brilliance rounds

No comparison this time because this is quite the unique ammo, and I understand the idea and the potential and appeal of a damage amping mechanic. However, 5 planar damage is just far too low, especially with the restriction of it only being caused by planar damage. It kind of reminds me of Wigfrid's affinity song +5% damage boost... It's, really insignificant. I understand the intention of this being procced by each player causing the damage bonus to rack up further, but at that point the mark damage is still insignificant compared to the actual damage the player(s) are dealing.

How would I buff it? Increase Walter's personal boost to 10/15 and/or make it proc'd by any weapon. This will make it feel more impactful, without removing the identity of the ammo.
 

Extra notes/critiques:

• Walter's possession of 3 slowing ammos is rather weird, I'd much prefer if he was able to craft different ammos with different utility that are distinct from slows...
• Walter's stinger rounds are a dead slot as soon as you go to lunar now that he can prototype moonglass rounds, I'm all for new player accomodation but if this is the case couldn't the ammo get buffed to not be bad even disregarding other ammos? Or merge it with the skill for moonglass or add it to base kit.
• In a similar vein, Walter's sticky grip upgrade is rather useless, and for a middle ground between veteran/experienced players and new players I think that the handle should instead be moved into the slingshot modder kit skill, which also unlocks things like the bone frame. That way both parties are satisfied.
• Walter's scrappy upgrade is rather bad, I think the charge-up time should be reduced to make it a more potent upgrade. I love the scrappier frame, though. It really makes me excited for the idea of more frames.
• The lack of mid-game slingshot grip upgrades is rather unfortunate, I think more could be nice.
• Walter's affinities being post-rifts only is quite sad...
• Projectile pro 2 could have a distinct effect from Projectile pro 1, such as giving Walter an innate fire rate buff as to differentiate the two perks.
• Woby's bravery and support badges should be reworked imo, or at least merged, as they take up too much space/time just for Woby to still be worse than a beefalo. It'd be better if they were perks that make her stand out, instead
• It's rather odd that Walter has no perks for himself as a boyscout, badges are only awarded after accomplishing the tasks, so this could be done like Wigfrid's left side affinities.
• No pinetree pioneer hat upgrade which counts as armor is also rather odd. It's a pretty big complaint with Walter.
• woby skins pleas

 

hot dog (sory wob)

Guess I got excited too soon thanks for the more in depth testing hopefully they get some much needed buffs.

[Radicaljoe]

5 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

We already have 2.5 AoE rounds, Stinger (ew), Moonglass, and Gunpowder. Having another round for crowd control seems excessive when there are plenty of other effects to have.

True, but it's the only thing I could think of. 

[_mylilsunshine_]

27 minutes ago, Radicaljoe said:

True, but it's the only thing I could think of. 

Since Gunpowder doesn't have an increased stagger effect (sadly), even though thematically it could've, I like to think that Shockscrap can have a stunning effect like WX's electric circuit. Being able to better stun/stagger mobs might make DFly an easier fight since she's resistant to stagger and is fast as ****.

[Horsheen]

Amazing thread, you've said everything that I'd been thinking about the changes as well as providing good and clear data. Really hoping the developers will see this thread and make the necessary changes

[Bluepugjr]

First off, Thank you for your hard work and testing. Its greatly appreciated 

second, seeing the numbers for all these is really disappointing. I got so excited when I heard we were getting debuff rounds and DoT rounds but seeing how negligible the numbers are has got me thinking. 

are the devs afraid to make Walter strong? And if so why?

I understand that balancing a ranged weapon is difficult but it’s kind of ridiculous for 70% of a skill tree to be dedicated to one item just for that item to still be worse than the default way of approaching combat.

now I’m not saying every ammo type needs to gap melee to the point it becomes obsolete, quite the opposite actually, but it’s just confusing when they add all these higher damage ammo types and new effects, but don’t want it to actually do good damage late game for some reason.

now to give credit where it’s due, despite the low numbers I do really really like the pure brilliance rounds and the horror rounds, if we could just get toned down mid game versions of those, and buff the affinity ones to keep up with other late game options, they’d be perfect.

And after seeing what they can do, honestly I’d prefer if some more of the damaging rounds were converted into status effect ones.

rather than trying to force Walter into just being “the ranged character” cuz let’s be honest, I don’t think that’s ever going to work.

they should have his slingshot be a utility item to make mellow combat more interesting. We can already see potential for this with his honey, icky, brilliance and horror rounds.

slowing your target can make it easier to kite them with melee

And debuffing them can help your teammates or followers to get better damage on them

while horror rounds give you damage uptime so you can keep your dps up when you’d be dodging.

To summarize; shift away from ranged damage dealer to ranged support, niche specialist. 
add new ammo effects (ex. Poison, detonation buildup, confusion, decreased damage, etc.)

and give woby some skins

[Yolo-Kouhai]

Yeah, the fact that the Howlitzer and Gloomerang out DPS late game Walter rounds is crazy.

[LuneCaptor]

I sincerely hope Klei gives this post a read. They themselves said they needed more people to test Walter, and Catuna is the biggest Walter enthusiast I know.
Adding the calculations and reasoning behind this post, I think it's a vital piece of feedback for Walter balancing.

[Tarnishedmax]

I heavily agree with everything here and i hope dev listen to this because we the 5 total Walter players in this entire game really feel underwhelmed with numbers specifically, i do think the stuff itself its going in a right direction but its SO undertuned

 

[Yeah_No]

I think these changes would be very good for Walter, especially the alignment rounds as they were very underwhelming for post-rift exclusive ammo. Great post and data aswell - very understandable and cool

[Crimson Hollow]

Totally agree with all the points mentioned here. I just tested them out and they are really, and I mean REALLY, undertoned imo.

Similar to he shouldn't be thinking about replacing woby with a beefalo, him choosing gloomerang over his slingshot is gonna be crazy.

[V2C]

Nice testing!  This is great!  Some things I would also note are that post rift, planar damage is stronger than regular damage, so their value cannot be compared equally.  There's also the practical aspect to look at that may not be apparent vs target dummies.  For example, the Pure Horror shadows do trigger hit state like regular attacks, the vine hits so fast that it will catch most moving targets without needing slow down, and the damage procs from the Pure Brilliance debuff are uncapped.

We'll also take another look at Walter's attack speed next week.

[Mysterious box]

35 minutes ago, V2C said:

Nice testing!  This is great!  Some things I would also note are that post rift, planar damage is stronger than regular damage, so their value cannot be compared equally.  There's also the practical aspect to look at that may not be apparent vs target dummies.  For example, the Pure Horror shadows do trigger hit state like regular attacks, the vine hits so fast that it will catch most moving targets without needing slow down, and the damage procs from the Pure Brilliance debuff are uncapped.

We'll also take another look at Walter's attack speed next week.

Any chance we could also get a increase in the duration of the Brilliance debuff?

Edit: Wait by uncapped do you mean the brilliance buff stacks?

[Catuna_]

10 minutes ago, V2C said:

Nice testing!  This is great!  Some things I would also note are that post rift, planar damage is stronger than regular damage, so their value cannot be compared equally.  There's also the practical aspect to look at that may not be apparent vs target dummies.  For example, the Pure Horror shadows do trigger hit state like regular attacks, the vine hits so fast that it will catch most moving targets without needing slow down, and the damage procs from the Pure Brilliance debuff are uncapped.

We'll also take another look at Walter's attack speed next week.

This is true! And I do acknowledge that, but I do think that considering that post-rift melee weapons are definitely stronger ontop of having planar damage, I think Walter's rounds could benefit from the same treatment at least a little bit.
Thank you for taking the time to read through my post, though. You guys are awesome ^^

[Jakepeng99]

36 minutes ago, V2C said:

For example, the Pure Horror shadows do trigger hit state like regular attacks, the vine hits so fast that it will catch most moving targets without needing slow down, and the damage procs from the Pure Brilliance debuff are uncapped.

Yeah, i believe just dps tests dont mean everything.

[Copyafriend]

Dude fantastic work, honestly this is the dedication walter needs to help klei let him shine.

 

I do wanna point out that some of these are more effective than they seem on first glance

Pure horror may not directly surpass marble, but it can be aoe with a thulecite frame allowing for the best crowd control for walter by miles.

Its damage is also almost pure planar making it much more effective against enemies with planar defense than you might expect. 

The formula for planar entity protection is

(According to the wiki)

Damage Taken = (√(Physical Damage * 4 + 64) - 8) * 4 + Planar Damage

The marble ammo would instrad deal

Sqrt(51 * 4 + 64) * 4

Sqrt 268 = 16.3 - 8 =

8.3 * 4 = 33.2 damage per hit

(Hps = 51/71.41 = 1.4 hits per second or an attack period of .71

Which would bring the dps down to around 33.2 * 1.4 = 46.4 dps compared to 71.4 or a over 30% loss in dps

Meanwhile the nearly pure planar pure horror does

17 + 10 planar + 4 damage every 2 seconds (per? Will use maf to determine)

Sqrt(17 * 4 + 64) - 8 ) * 4

Sqrt 115 10.7 - 8 = 2.7 * 4

10.8 + 10 + DOT

20 + DOT

(DOT = 75.1 (full dps pre planar protect - (27 * 1.4 (damage of the shot itself over time)) 

Or 75.1 - 37.8 or 37.3

(20 * 1.4) + 37.3 or

28 + 37.3 

65.3

So the final damage per second of pure horror vs marble on a planar entity is:

46.4 vs 65.3 damage per second

 

Looks a little more impressive under this lens.

Id provide more calculations but im out of pure numbers to rub, still, very enlightening, please number me up sir.

 

 

 

[Sacco]

I think walter doesn't need any scout perk, he already has them with his base kit.

I always loved the idea of him making survival things discounted or with a different recipe.

Take for example honey poultice, maybe walter can craft one with 3 honey and 10 grass instead of the usual 2 honey and 1 papyrus.

 

[_mylilsunshine_]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Edit: Wait by uncapped do you mean the brilliance buff stacks?

My guess is that the buff doesn't have a limit to how much damage it gives. For example, a roided-up Wolfgang with Spicy Volt Goat Jelly will receive the entire 7% damage bonus, instead of being capped at like, 10 dmg. But then again, 7% is peanut damage..

I calculated the buff very roughly, shot a normal punching bag with a Brightshade round, 68 dmg. With the buff, it's 73, so a 7% increase. I didn't take planar damage into account.

[PunkShark]

You really had me going until you put Woby on fire, then you lost all credibility.

Absolutely vile.

[Catuna_]

6 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

You really had me going until you put Woby on fire, then you lost all credibility.

Absolutely vile.

Better watch your back, dear friend....

[-Variant]