Klei Stream Cliffnotes

[WenericMember]

For anyone unable to see the stream, here's a list of things discussed as best I can record, apologies for any errors:

Notable changes will bolded

• Beta will be updated likely tommorow
• Will not be everything shown off.

Wendy:

• WIP Tree:

• Recognizes negative reception
• "Tuned Quite low, flavoured peoples reaction"
• Not fully fleshed out, disappointment reasonable, hopes to address it.
• New skill, blessed Sisturn IV, further boosting while resting at sisturn for another 300 max hp, total of 1200hp.
• Elixir line were underdeveloped, recognize it wasn't that great
• 4 skill line
  • Tier 1: elixir case, 8 slots
  • Tier 2: "new elixir that lets her quickly remember her potential" - instantly restores her to level 3, not her current hp (forget me lots, mourning glory)
  • Tier 3: Strong brew compressed into one skill
  • Tier 4: Elixirs produce 2 when crafted (mentioned potion durability from jakepeng)
• Vengeful ghost is designed for flavor over practicality
• Pipspook quests unchanged
• Team spirit 2 is a charge attack
• Team Spirit has team spirit IV: allows Abigail to haunt (may be tuned to have increased chances of effects)
• Gravestone Line seems unchanged.
  • Edit: Wendy can write her own headstone epitahs :>
• Dark Petal lines seems to be removed
  • Reworked Flower shroud also wouldn't be the solution, becomes more like Wanda than desired
  • Without it dark Petals I isn't useful
  • May be absorbed into the grave lines
• Will add 1 or 2 new skills, not sure what they are yet.
• Alignment elixirs can now be used at the same time as other elixirs (Pseudo double potions)
• Lunar Abigail is supposed to be a "sniper"
  • keeps away from combat more
  • homes in on target
  • increased vex duration
• Shadow Alignment
  • Sacrifice is intended mentioned as a reference to original DS
  • Doubles Abi's damage & gives planar defense
• Alignment skills have been renamed XXXX "Sisterhood."

Wortox:

• Inclinations:
  • Nice: no longer is hostile from racists
  • Naughty: Temporarily delays overload after gathering an excess of souls
• Pan flutes rework:
  • Middle one is staying
  • side ones are in flux
  • Free pan flute usage doesn't expire anymore
• Can teleport with heavy objects, in exchange for additional soul cost
• Mounted teleport might not be implemented.

Walter:

• A lot of people aren't playing walter
• Usage on par with wes :L
• Damage needs tuning
• Needs careful because ranged character could break things
• Designed to make Walter more approachable
• themed after scout badges
• Woby is designed after charms in hollow knight?
• Woby digging depends on terrain
• Will be retuned after slingshot, not tomorrows update
• Mod kit will work while mounted
• Goes through various slingshot mods. (Don't think any of its been changed)
• Charged attack
• Secret mimic Flailing slingshot band shoots "mimic rounds" sometimes that doesn't consume materials
• Ammo stacks to 120
• Base ammo crafts will be 20, skill will upgrade to 30, halved for icker
• Slow down ammo will stack up to 3x, will be usable with thulecite frame, unlike other round types
• Rounds still need stations, but can be protoyped
• Once people play him more there may be more updates
• Affinities - both sides will get 2 ammo types, will count as 2 for unlocking efficient ammo (?)
• Woby plans will get a post
• You can't ditch the skills after upgrading the slingshot
• Scrappy & Scrappier slingshot frame will be split into pre and post rift.
• Gunpowder will be RNG damage
• Dreadstone has a damage buff

 

And that's about it!

[Dingle]

Thanks in advance for doing this! I can't see it and really appreciate the notes.

[erick was right]

gg guys we lost the op skill (abigail tanking dmg for wendy) and we didnt get abigail getting armor XD

 

[WenericMember]

Just now, Cosiek said:

gg guys we lost the op skill (abigail tanking dmg for wendy) and we didnt get abigail getting armor XD

 

We will get some compensation skills, so that's something at least.

[erick was right]

11 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

We will get some compensation skills, so that's something at least.

ideas what can be equal to it? 

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, Cosiek said:

ideas what can be equal to it? 

Considering how powerful Abi armour was going to be, I wouldn't rule it out

[Waywarbler]

51 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Flailing slingshot band shoots "mimic rounds" sometimes that doesn't consume materials

I think they meant that the flailing slingshot band has secret "mimic" variant that does the mimic ammo saving thing.

[WenericMember]

Just now, Waywarbler said:

I think they meant that the flailing slingshot band has secret "mimic" variant that does the mimic ammo saving thing.

Ah, that's probably correct, I didn't know anything about it to begin with.

[_mylilsunshine_]

To add to Walter's section:
People were concerned about the purpose of Slow-down round now that Honey and Icky is in the game. The new Thulecite frame will enhance magic round (Freeze, Slow-down, etc.), allowing Slow-down to AoE slow that can stack up to 3 times, giving it a new niche.

Quote

• Slow down ammo will stack up to 3x, will be usable with thulecite frame, unlike other round types

Also, they do know about the marble bag/ammo inventory, it's just not really practical to manage inventory in a fight and such, especially for console players. They make up for this through better ammo economy and crafting prototype.

[Debruh]

Tier 2 of the elixir line seems like a bad idea ngl

The changes are great though. Love that they listen to community feedback

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Tier 2 of the elixir line seems like a bad idea ngl

The changes are great though. Love that they listen to community feedback

Eh, it doesn't restore hp so it should be balanced by giving Abi significant downtime. Giving Abigail an "Instant" potion isn't a bad idea.

[Well-met]

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

 

• Gunpowder will be RNG damage

 

excellent nod to D&D

[WenericMember]

Tbh I'm more concerned about the double potion perk, as it's strong, but we already have something similar with Pipspook Quest.

[Dingle]

Huh, I wonder what they don't like about Wortox being able to teleport while mounted? Did they say?

It doesnt seem strong to me, it just would prevent using a beefalo as Wortox from feeling clunky.

If they don't do that, I guess I just wouldnt use a beefalo as Wortox.

Alignments sound good, I guessed those as likely.

Teleporting heavy stuff sounds good.

Still hoping they give a bug net function to the knabsack, at least.

 

[WenericMember]

Just now, Dingle said:

Huh, I wonder what they don't like about Wortox being able to teleport while mounted? Did they say?

It doesnt seem strong to me, it just would prevent using a beefalo as Wortox from feeling clunky.

If they don't do that, I guess I just wouldnt use a beefalo as Wortox.

Alignments sound good, I guessed those as likely.

Teleporting heavy stuff sounds good.

Still hoping they give a bug net function to the knabsack, at least.

 

They mentioned that they thought the primary objective for mounted usage was to carry heavy objects, which they're implementing (presumably as Wortox already has better movement than beefalo)

[Jazzuo]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

Huh, I wonder what they don't like about Wortox being able to teleport while mounted? Did they say?

It doesnt seem strong to me, it just would prevent using a beefalo as Wortox from feeling clunky.

If they don't do that, I guess I just wouldnt use a beefalo as Wortox.

 

probably the main thing why they can't do it, it's because the tp from wortox and wanda have inmunity frames, so you can actually ignore hits with beefalos, something that no other character can do, and beefalos with wortox would be very good at the point that you would want one everytime you play wortox

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, WenericMember said:

They mentioned that they thought the primary objective for mounted usage was to carry heavy objects, which they're implementing (presumably as Wortox already has better movement than beefalo)

Hmm ok.

4 the devs if they see: I like beefalo as Wortox for extra transportation. It's great in areas with less souls to farm, or to otherwise conserve. It just feels really clunky right now, as I have to dismount to teleport.

It's strange that you can't, as the Lazy Explorer still works.

Thanks again for the transcript!

[Jason]

I forgot one small change. When Wendy crafts gravestones, she can write an Epitaph.

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, Jazzuo said:

probably the main thing why they can't do it, it's because the tp from wortox and wanda have inmunity frames, so you can actually ignore hits with beefalos, something that no other character can do, and beefalos with wortox would be very good at the point that you would want one everytime you play wortox

Beefalo are naturally good at kiting already though, due to their speed.

[Mysterious box]

Just as a disclaimer this isn't directed towards you I'm just using the cliffnotes to bounce my thoughts off of.

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

• A lot of people aren't playing walter
• Usage on par with wes :L
• Damage needs tuning
• Needs careful because ranged character could break things
• Designed to make Walter more approachable
• themed after scout badges
• Woby is designed after charms in hollow knight?
• Woby digging depends on terrain?
• Will be retuned after slingshot, not tommorows update
• Mod kit will work while mounted
• Goes through various slingshot mods. (Don't think any of its been changed)
• Charged attack
• Secret mimic Flailing slingshot band shoots "mimic rounds" sometimes that doesn't consume materials
• Ammo stacks to 120
• Base ammo crafts will be 20, skill will upgrade to 30, halved for icker
• Slow down ammo will stack up to 3x, will be usable with thulecite frame, unlike other round types
• Rounds still need stations, but can be protoyped
• Once people play him more there may be more updates
• Affinities - both sides will get 2 ammo types, will count as 2 for unlocking efficient ammo
• Woby plans will get a post
• You can't ditch the skills after upgrading the slingshot
• Scrappy & Scrappier slingshot frame will be split into pre and post rift.
• Gunpowder will be RNG damage
• Dreadstone has a damage buff

It seems strange to me that they didn't think of possibly adding some new features outside of the slingshot or Woby after seeing how few people actually played Walter as much as people say his skill tree his fine the numbers clearly say otherwise and I've seen reactions range from he doesn't have enough interesting things to he looks interesting now but I don't think I'd play him over others. I say this as someone who actually loves how much they've done to fix his slingshot and ammo economy but I feel like unlike Wortox or Wendy they didn't improve the new player and casual experience enough for Walter which is also likely why not many people are testing him he doesn't have something to grab someone who isn't a veteran at the moment skill tree wise and by veteran I mean at least capable of clearing the ruins or assembling the lunar altar as a baseline and most of his more interesting kit becomes more accessible post rift a point in the game most people don't reach.

I do love the changes they've added but I feel like there's a big issue with the gunpowder change if it's baseline has been nerfed I can't see why anyone would use it which is a shame since once again it's far more accessible to casual players than dreadstone is.

I'm conflicted mainly I love the changes they made with Walter so far but I can't see them making Walter more popular as a character unless they do more with him his downsides really pulls people out of playing him and the level of skill required to make use of his kit further turns off players as it stands I feel like only people who currently like him and a few interested in his updated ranged combat will be interested in even attempting him.

But again I really like what's currently planned and thank the devs for softening the blow when it comes to his grindy nature.

[Dingle]

Oh and last Wortox thing I got: Neutral seems a little disappointing so far, but will see what the other perks end up being.

I also wonder if Neutral alignment will get a bonus like Nice and Naughty, though guessing not.

[Jazzuo]

Just now, Dingle said:

Beefalo are naturally good at kiting already though, due to their speed.

yeah but like, still they are things that beefalos can't kite or extremely hard to kite, like the first hit of df or the nightmare werepig, besides if wortox could tp while riding a beefalo you would never not tame a beefalo, only because you would be able to explore the map faster

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Jazzuo said:

yeah but like, still they are things that beefalos can't kite or extremely hard to kite, like the first hit of df or the nightmare werepig, besides if wortox could tp while riding a beefalo you would never not tame a beefalo, only because you would be able to explore the map faster

Oh maybe on the kiting.

I think most people dont tame a beefalo as Wortox anyway. If they didn't add this, I probably wouldn't touch beefalo as Wortox anymore, either.

Guess we'll see!

[Maxil20]

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

Dreadstone has a damage buff

Kind of a bit unfortunate to see this be the change. Compared to most other rounds in the game, dreadstone is a significant step up in costs from every other ammo type. You can get around 12 or so dreadstone at best per nightmare werepig, and that's the only source pre rift. The closest one I can compare it to is cursed rounds, and you can craft thousands without going very out of the way. The post rift options are most likely better as well, and are likely going to eclipse this one while being easier to amass.

It reminds me of the star cannon from Terarria; It's technically the best damage source pre hardmode, but most players very rarely use it because amassing that many stars for a fight is very impractical, and you are much better off using weapons that are not as effective but are significantly easier to upkeep.

I would really like to see this one get a secondary effect. Even something simple like doubling the amount of rounds you get per dreadstone would be very appreciated. 

[Evelo]

Quick question for @Jason or some other klei individual. Why lock some important items or abilities behind skills rather than give them to the character baseline then enhance through skills? (ie Willow's Ember Spells, Wortox's Soul Jar, Woby badge). Design philosophy is important to me for reasons I don't truly understand myself, but if I disagree with something and the dev(s) explain why they did it, my brain simmers down.