There is little benefit to creating additional Graves

[WenericMember]

There's a skill in Wendy's tree that seems to be flying under the radar, despite being relatively useless with a flawed design as far as skills go - Graves by Wendy.

As a tier three skill, it is locked behind the much more useful gravestone relocation, and grave beautification, and therein lies the problem.

There already exists more than enough graves in the world, as the current cap on grave decorations is 4 at a time. So outside decoration, (which is valid, but also not worth an entire insight point on its own), the skill is useless for practical puprposes.

But there's another issue, spamming infinite, immovable graves seems most useful for griefing, rather than anything else. It not only forces large amounts of hostile ghosts to spawn during the full moon, but it can also prevent structure placement with no possible countermeasures other than another Wendy with grave relocation.

Edit: THIS CAN THEORETICALLY BLOCK AFW FROM SPAWNING

The skill needs reworks to add additional utility to graves as a whole while also adding anti-griefing measures, or be reworked to only give additional utility to beautified graves.

[ShadowDuelist]

You are right I havent thought of that,  anyone who is not a wendy with the skill can’t do anything about moved or created graves, even if the creator had good faith, but placed it in a bad location for everyone else.

[kroban]

15 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

The skill needs reworks to add additional utility to graves as a whole, or be reworked to give additional utility to beautified graves.

But currently they have quite a lot of utility:

- You can relocate the graves that already exist on the map to have way easier access to mourning glory, and thats something you can do from day 1.

- Each time you "replant" or create a grave the dirt pile is reseted, so thats essentialy a free farm of blue,red gems, and easy gold from the trinkets.

- The beautified graves can spawn 4 ghosts that are neutral towards Wendy but are aggresive to anything else. And they are also ignored by bosses. So in theory by putting for example 4 graves near BQ you can have them doing free additional damage in that fight.

- Beautified graves also spawn evil flowers which Wendy can turn to petals, craft those into free fuel, or craft the new petals armor.

Like, out of all the perks she currently has I would say that the whole graves branch is one of the strongest, idk if it needs more tweaks really

 

[Mike23Ua]

10 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

There's a skill in Wendy's tree that seems to be flying under the radar, despite being relatively useless with a flawed design as far as skills go - Graves by Wendy.

As a tier three skill, it is locked behind the much more useful gravestone relocation, and grave beautification, and therein lies the problem.

There already exists more than enough graves in the world, as the current cap on grave decorations is 4 at a time. Also, spamming infinite, immovable graves seems most useful for griefing, rather than anything else. 

The skill needs reworks to add additional utility to graves as a whole, or be reworked to give additional utility to beautified graves, while also adding anti-griefing measures.

I’m pretty sure they thought this through ahead of time and made it so you can take a hammer to graves if they block your path (or the graves can’t be placed too closely to one another..) A body has to have so much space between another body after all.

(wow that sounded way more creepy then I intended LMAO, anyway I had a family member who use to work in the Graveyard when I was a kid and I’d constantly be told to be careful where I step and respect the dead peoples resting spots)

Aka: Don’t run in Graveyards kid.

Other then THAT angry ghosts should only spawn from Wendy’s graves on every full moon night.

But considering she’s decorated them or whatever.. maybe these ghouls of the night are at peace?

That reminds me… Klei added ghost shipwrecks at sea not too long ago, wonder if she’ll have any sort of interactions with them either..?

[WenericMember]

7 minutes ago, kroban said:

But currently they have quite a lot of utility:

- You can relocate the graves that already exist on the map to have way easier access to mourning glory, and thats something you can do from day 1.

- Each time you "replant" or create a grave the dirt pile is reseted, so thats essentialy a free farm of blue,red gems, and easy gold from the trinkets.

- The beautified graves can spawn 4 ghosts that are neutral towards Wendy but are aggresive to anything else. And they are also ignored by bosses. So in theory by putting for example 4 graves near BQ you can have them doing free additional damage in that fight.

- Beautified graves also spawn evil flowers which Wendy can turn to petals, craft those into free fuel, or craft the new petals armor.

Like, out of all the perks she currently has I would say that the whole graves branch is one of the strongest, idk if it needs more tweaks really

 

The former is true, but you can get more than enough graves natrually generating.

I don't think the 2nd point is true for relocating graves, and either way seems like a bug (though it is something for new graves)

Again, I'm only talking about the third tier skill. Tiers I & II can accomplish that

Again, only talking about tier III.

5 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m pretty sure they thought this through ahead of time and made it so you can take a hammer to graves if they block your path (or the graves can’t be placed too closely to one another..) A body has to have so much space between another body after all.

(wow that sounded way more creepy then I intended LMAO, anyway I had a family member who use to work in the Graveyard when I was a kid and I’d constantly be told to be careful where I step and respect the dead peoples resting spots)

Aka: Don’t run in Graveyards kid.

Other then THAT angry ghosts should only spawn from Wendy’s graves on every full moon night.

But considering she’s decorated them or whatever.. maybe these ghouls of the night are at peace?

That reminds me… Klei added ghost shipwrecks at sea not too long ago, wonder if she’ll have any sort of interactions with them either..?

I'll check to verify this now,  but even if it can't hard sosftlock people, then it'd still be needlessly annoying in Bases/Combat Arenas, along with full moons.

Edit: Apparently you can walk past them, but they still

1. Spawn Ghosts
2. Restrict Structure Placement

[Dingle]

The potential for automatic farms sounded cool to me. Like the dev graveyard, but better.

[Maxil20]

9 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I'll check to verify this now,  but even if it can't hard sosftlock people, then it'd still be needlessly annoying in Bases/Combat Arenas, along with full moons.

I think a Warly-Crockpot-Fix of making it so players can hammer down relocated graves but not place them down would help fix the issue of them being impossible to relocate as other characters without making the scale irrelevant as Wendy.

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Maxil20 said:

I think a Warly-Crockpot-Fix of making it so players can hammer down relocated graves but not place them down would help fix the issue of them being impossible to relocate as other characters without making the scale irrelevant as Wendy.

That would fix the griefing issues, but I think the skill as a whole needs a rework regardless. Someone suggested in another thread collapsing graves by Wendy and Grave relocation into one skill and adding a new tier 3, which I agree with.

[Mike23Ua]

9 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

That would fix the griefing issues, but I think the skill as a whole needs a rework regardless. Someone suggested in another thread collapsing graves by Wendy and Grave relocation into one skill and adding a new tier 3, which I agree with.

The new tier 3 should be allowing Wendy to channel the Sayonce rituals she studied exhaustively to bring a dead players ghost that’s in the world to be resummoned at the gravestone (Wendy has to actually stand near & interact with it like socketing Nightmare fuel into the Terrarium)

[Siren11]

I like the potential for auto farms + cool builds, and it’s nice to have a way to spawn new graves to dig up (or just for the aesthetic if you want). But like I said on another thread, it probably wouldn’t be too strong to combine moving and creating graves into one skill, and then adding a new final skill to make it a bit more worth it.

Gravestones won’t block movement (the first thing I checked was how closely together they could be placed), but they could definitely get in the way if another player wanted to build in a certain area. I hadn’t considered that. I was mostly concerned about full moon ghosts, especially since not all Wendy players will know those are hostile to other characters. It would be nice if other players could do something about gravestones that Wendy moved or created.

There’s also the issue of being able to put graves in your inventory. Someone could just spawn into a new world, steal all the graves before other players can loot them, and leave. Not fun. I think they should be heavy.

[Sapientis]

Both 2nd and 3rd skills in this grave skillset are problematic.

Graves relocation shouldn't be character specific, everyone should be able to do that, as well as some bosses like Bearger.

Also Wendy isn't a mason to carve Headstones, she might give a proper burial due to her knowledge of the dead, but Headstones should be craftable by anyone just like Signs are.

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, Sapientis said:

Both 2nd and 3rd skills in this grave skillset are problematic.

Graves relocation shouldn't be character specific, everyone should be able to do that, as well as some bosses like Bearger.

Also Wendy isn't a mason to carve Headstones, she might give a proper burial due to her knowledge of the dead, but Headstones should be craftable by anyone just like Signs are.

I believe this was done in an effort to give even Megabasers a reason to switch to playing as Wendy, just like if you wanted to craft additional berry bushes you are forced to switch to Wormwood to do so.

[WenericMember]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I believe this was done in an effort to give even Megabasers a reason to switch to playing as Wendy, just like if you wanted to craft additional berry bushes you are forced to switch to Wormwood to do so.

But at lest Wormwood's skills have global applications, they let you grow berry buses without having to  gather them from around the map. It was also part of a tree that also gave reed saplings iirc, Graves don't have that.

[Sapientis]

40 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

just like if you wanted to craft additional berry bushes you are forced to switch to Wormwood to do so.

Okay, but existence of that does't mean it's good design... The only thing Wormwood can obtain that is otherwise unobtainable are Leafy Berry Bushes, you can just switch on basic resource regrowth in World options to get the rest or get it over time (Lureplants, Monkeytails).

If we agree upon only Wendy being able to move and create Graves will Wurt get to move and craft Ponds in the next update? Would you like that? It's similarly flawed idea in my opinion.

[Dingle]

1 hour ago, Sapientis said:

If we agree upon only Wendy being able to move and create Graves will Wurt get to move and craft Ponds in the next update? Would you like that? It's similarly flawed idea in my opinion.

I'd actually like that haha.

[This14Real]

49 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I'd actually like that haha.

Same.

2 hours ago, Sapientis said:

If we agree upon only Wendy being able to move and create Graves will Wurt get to move and craft Ponds in the next update? Would you like that? It's similarly flawed idea in my opinion.

I love ponds right next to each other due to easy access to meat for gold early game. I would love a way to dig up ponds and start new ones somewhere else when world gen isn’t kind enough (Even if it’s locked to a single character like Wurt), many players don’t have access to all the tweaks mods offer for a better experience or some choose not to, having these options in game sounds great. Your opinion is flawed.

[WenericMember]

4 minutes ago, This14Real said:

Same.

I love ponds right next to each other due to easy access to meat for gold early game. I would love a way to dig up ponds and start new ones somewhere else when world gen isn’t kind enough (Even if it’s locked to a single character like Wurt), many players don’t have access to all the tweaks mods offer for a better experience or some choose not to, having these options in game sounds great. Your opinion is flawed.

Except... It's locked on Wurt.

Y'know

The one character who can't trade with Pig King?

Yes, I know Multiplayer exists and is largely beside the point, but its still funny.

[This14Real]

4 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Except... It's locked on Wurt.

Y'know

The one character who can't trade with Pig King?

You know you can change characters right? Not all characters must be played from day 0 till the end of your times. Having a skill that benefits all other characters is great, let people have fun the way they want to have fun, swapping or not. It won’t bother your life in the slightest.

Also multiplayer game, with multiple characters. Think about that, this isn’t solo don’t starve.

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, This14Real said:

You know you can change characters right? Not all characters must be played from day 0 till the end of your times. Having a skill that benefits all other characters is great, let people have fun the way they want to have fun, swapping or not. It won’t bother your life in the slightest.

I edited in the comment, but it was largely meant in jest as you did specify early game

[Peasant]

5 hours ago, kroban said:

The beautified graves can spawn 4 ghosts that are neutral towards Wendy but are aggresive to anything else. And they are also ignored by bosses. So in theory by putting for example 4 graves near BQ you can have them doing free additional damage in that fight.

Would there be a way of making Boss farm by this? Simply put several graves in where the boss spawns and you get to automatically kill a boss whenever it spawns. A little op and troblesome for me but I think there are people who would love this.

[Soul7k]

as it is this feels kind of like a swap skill like creating plants as wormwood. you do it to make things easier and then get your skill points back and use em elsewhere

[WenericMember]

Got round to testing it again!

Uh oh.

It uhh... Turns out you not only can't place fossils on graves, you can't place fossils in a pretty sizable radius around the grave.

Which means its possible to prevent the fuelweaver from being summoned unless there's another Wendy with Grave Relocation right?

This skill line really needs reworks.

[WenericMember]

Bumping this so it hopefully gets seen when Klei is awake.

[cyjs]

We can even plant tombstones all over the fields to stop others from farming, plant them in front of the refrigerator to block your view, Planted next to the factory, completely destroying the operation, plant it next to a cow in heat so they can be completely exterminated, and no one will know it was you because you have an alibi.

[WenericMember]

7 hours ago, cyjs said:

We can even plant tombstones all over the fields to stop others from farming, plant them in front of the refrigerator to block your view, Planted next to the factory, completely destroying the operation, plant it next to a cow in heat so they can be completely exterminated, and no one will know it was you because you have an alibi.

Yeah, It's def got more griefing applications than it does practical.