Please calm down about wendy.

[PunkShark]

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

people have seen the way klei has made some characters god-like so they expect the same treatment for their beloved underaged mascot.

I think people have gotten the completely wrong idea of what a Skill tree is meant to do for our roster. it isn't a rework update to their character, not in the same sense as refresh updates were. They were a lot more open to change the basekit of the character as a whole but was also a turning stone for some the characters due to them being too basic (unfortunately, Willow and Winona got the short end of the stick because of them being too early in development of what a refresh update should contain)

The way i see it is that skill trees are a realization of the issues what a character currently faces. And the skill tree fixes them up throughout progression, alignments and QOL.
It isn't to make them into an "op powerhouse", or turn their gameplay into something they aren't.

Willow was a rare case of a character who just had too little to begin with, that was her issue. She had bernie, lighter, no dmg from fire/less susceptible to heat, faster cooking and that was it. That was quite literally it in terms of pros (Unless you want to count her more fire fuel efficiency) She was deemed a meme character simply of being outed as a griefer with no purpose. There was no reason to pick Willow unless you just simply liked her personality and looks.

Woodie was a mess for a long time, and i can attest to that considering the rollercoaster this man and woodie mains have gone through. His forms were only arguably better for the early game, but you'd best be off with a hambat and armor for the same effect of the moose. it's been many years of suggestions and feedback of Woodie's past problems that caused his skill tree to be so expansive as it was and to fix him to actually be a fun and playable character, both inside of the forms and useful as himself with Lucy.

These 2 characters are prime examples of what a weak and unfun a character was before their skill tree. They didn't feel complete. Much like Wortox and Walter who also has the issue of too little and or not fun.

(I could go on with all the characters but we'd be here all day)

Now look at Wendy compared to all of this. It ain't no coincidence that Wendy is considered one of the most played characters. she's useful, her AOE is some of the best and she does it well. both in solo and in a group she slays anything that comes near in herds. Her issues weren't as expansive as the other two mentioned. She's already powerful throughout most of the game, but her issues lies in her tedium of pipspooks/sisturn and lack of control with Abi and 1v1 bosses. The skill tree is trying to fix these issues without making her stronger than she already needs to be while adding some flair for her paranormal themes and character. And of course planar buffs since everybody gets those one way or another.

I think it's unrealistic to expect a Willow-like skill tree for any and all characters who hasn't gotten one yet. I think it's unhealthy to think so. Especially if your character is already kicking butt. Wolfgang, Maxwell, Wanda, Wendy. (I'm not saying they aren't going to get new things but do lower your expectations)  I really think Klei needs to lower people's expectations and make it a lot more apparent of what a skill tree is meant to be in the first place. Cause i feel we've gotten the wrong idea of the goal that they present.
 

[WenericMember]

9 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

I think people have gotten the completely wrong idea of what a Skill tree is meant to do for our roster. it isn't a rework update to their character, not in the same sense as refresh updates were. They were a lot more open to change the basekit of the character as a whole but was also a turning stone for some the characters due to them being too basic (unfortunately, Willow and Winona got the short end of the stick because of them being too early in development of what a refresh update should contain)

The way i see it is that skill trees are a realization of the issues what a character currently faces. And the skill tree fixes them up throughout progression, alignments and QOL.
It isn't to make them into an "op powerhouse", or turn their gameplay into something they aren't.

Willow was a rare case of a character who just had too little to begin with, that was her issue. She had bernie, lighter, no dmg from fire/less susceptible to heat, faster cooking and that was it. That was quite literally it in terms of pros (Unless you want to count her more fire fuel efficiency) She was deemed a meme character simply of being outed as a griefer with no purpose. There was no reason to pick Willow unless you just simply liked her personality and looks.

Woodie was a mess for a long time, and i can attest to that considering the rollercoaster this man and woodie mains have gone through. His forms were only arguably better for the early game, but you'd best be off with a hambat and armor for the same effect of the moose. it's been many years of suggestions and feedback of Woodie's past problems that caused his skill tree to be so expansive as it was and to fix him to actually be a fun and playable character, both inside of the forms and useful as himself with Lucy.

These 2 characters are prime examples of what a weak and unfun a character was before their skill tree. They didn't feel complete. Much like Wortox and Walter who also has the issue of too little and or not fun.

(I could go on with all the characters but we'd be here all day)

Now look at Wendy compared to all of this. It ain't no coincidence that Wendy is considered one of the most played characters. she's useful, her AOE is some of the best and she does it well. both in solo and in a group she slays anything that comes near in herds. Her issues weren't as expansive as the other two mentioned. She's already powerful throughout most of the game, but her issues lies in her tedium of pipspooks/sisturn and lack of control with Abi and 1v1 bosses. The skill tree is trying to fix these issues without making her stronger than she already needs to be while adding some flair for her paranormal themes and character. And of course planar buffs since everybody gets those one way or another.

I think it's unrealistic to expect a Willow-like skill tree for any and all characters who hasn't gotten one yet. I think it's unhealthy to think so. Especially if your character is already kicking butt. Wolfgang, Maxwell, Wanda, Wendy. (I'm not saying they aren't going to get new things but do lower your expectations)  I really think Klei needs to lower people's expectations and make it a lot more apparent of what a skill tree is meant to be in the first place. Cause i feel we've gotten the wrong idea of the goal that they present.
 

I don't dsiagree, but I think it does go too far in the opposite direction rn. I'd say about 1/4 of the skills are still obsolete, even post buffs.

[PunkShark]

4 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I don't dsiagree, but I think it does go too far in the opposite direction rn. I'd say about 1/4 of the skills are still obsolete, even post buffs.

Hey and that's alright. This is why we're in the beta afterall. There's an arguement to be made that some perks deserve some buffs, tweaks and ain't nothing wrong being critical when it comes to that. so long it's constructive.
Although I do think it's also important to remember that not every perk is made for everyone. So if one perk or branch seems useless to you, it might seem useful to someone else, not as a general example of Wendy's skills but as a whole in general. As the game has all types of players from beginners to the knowledgeable to veterans.

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

Hey and that's alright. This is why we're in the beta afterall. There's an arguement to be made that some perks deserve some buffs, tweaks and ain't nothing wrong being critical when it comes to that. so long it's constructive.
Although I do think it's also important to remember that not every perk is made for everyone. So if one perk or branch seems useless to you, it might seem useful to someone else, not as a general example of Wendy's skills but as a whole in general. As the game has all types of players from beginners to the knowledgeable to veterans.

 

Yeah, but I'm not particularly talking about "I won't use this" more "this won't have use for anyone. Dark Petals I is obsolete due to incoming haunt skills, Gravestones by Wendy is obsolete by the hard decorated grave cap of 4, Deep Draught has always been redundant, and Team Spirit 1 is practically identical to unsummoning & resummoning abigail.

[hoxi]

49 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Because when you can heal Abigail by just eating foods as Wendy her entire playstyle gets thrown out the window in one swoop.

Except this is getting removed because this was a result of the way the initial version of the item was implemented, and it's being changed completely anyway:

Quote

The Flower Shroud currently redirects Wendy's damage onto Abigail. It will change so that Abigail will benefit from Wendy's head gear armor instead.

(the damage redirect also included healing, so this will be gone too)

[Siren11]

13 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Yeah, but I'm not particularly talking about "I won't use this" more "this won't have use for anyone. Dark Petals I is obsolete due to incoming haunt skills, Gravestones by Wendy is obsolete by the hard decorated grave cap of 4, Deep Draught has always been redundant, and Team Spirit 1 is practically identical to unsummoning & resummoning abigail.

I actually kind of like Gravestones by Wendy just bc you can make entirely new graves, and it’s probably gonna be useful for some of my build ideas as well. But I can understand why people don’t see it as a particularly useful perk.

[WenericMember]

6 minutes ago, Siren11 said:

I actually kind of like Gravestones by Wendy just bc you can make entirely new graves, and it’s probably gonna be useful for some of my build ideas as well. But I can understand why people don’t see it as a particularly useful perk.

Yeah, that's the only real useful application of it, which is Valid! But not something worth dedicating an entire skill around. Ideally, they'd make it an additional buff.

That said Wendy-Made Gravestones should also be destructable because... being able to dupe & move objects indestructable by other players does not seem sanely designed.

[Siren11]

8 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Yeah, that's the only real useful application of it, which is Valid! But not something worth dedicating an entire skill around. Ideally, they'd make it an additional buff.

That said Wendy-Made Gravestones should also be destructable because... being able to dupe & move objects indestructable by other players does not seem sanely designed.

Making and relocating graves could probably share one skill point, which would allow another skill to potentially make the whole line more worth it?

Tbh the griefing issues were one of the first things I thought about with these skills. I don’t think it’ll be as easy to pull off as like, tail slam Werebeaver griefing, but Klei should definitely consider that other players can’t do anything about it. It might not even be malicious — I genuinely had no idea that full moon ghosts were hostile until they killed my friends. Whoops.

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Siren11 said:

Making and relocating graves could probably share one skill point, which would allow another skill to potentially make the whole line more worth it?

Tbh the griefing issues were one of the first things I thought about with these skills. I don’t think it’ll be as easy to pull off as like, tail slam Werebeaver griefing, but Klei should definitely consider that other players can’t do anything about it. It might not even be malicious — I genuinely had no idea that full moon ghosts were hostile until they killed my friends. Whoops.

That's probably the best way of handling it, along with adding some griefing protections.

I've made a dedicated thread for it if you want to share your thoughts.

[WenericMember]

Just now, Fitzee said:

 

Maybe it's as simple as Wurt scenario, where all ghosts are neutral towards other players when a Wendy with the appropriate skill is on the server?

That helps against Wendy's acting in good faith

Against griefers it doesn't help much.

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

Please elaborate. 

I guess I'm just concerned that an attempt to counter griefers will result in making some of the more well-recieved skills worse, while everyone is already unhappy with Wendy's skilltree in one way or another.

• griefing Wendy Spawns in
• griefing Wendy relocates all graves/adds new graves to the centre of the communal Base
• griefing Wendy Leaves the game, her work done

With no Wendy on the server, the ghosts go back to regular behaviour, and no-one can move the graves.

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

• griefing Wendy Spawns in
• griefing Wendy relocates all graves/adds new graves to the centre of the communal Base
• griefing Wendy Leaves the game, her work done

With no Wendy on the server, the ghosts go back to regular behaviour, and no-one can move the graves.

Easy fix: make these Wendy-built graves hammerable. 

[1007954611]

3小时前， mkemal23 说：

这正是我所说的。深色花瓣盔甲是一个如此有趣和酷的概念。

但是，它像变成真正的火焰喷射器一样华丽吗？它能在 2 秒内摧毁 Boss 吗？不？！然后它很糟糕！请重新设计整棵树！！

借楼，一个重做花甲的建议

Abgail获得血肉，Wendy获得力量。

取消 Flower Shroud的15%移速惩罚，

效果重新设计：

Wendy的三维（HP、SAN、Hunger）上限降低15%

---Wendy将自身血肉分享给Abgail，因为代价她的三维降低了

Abgail的攻击力维持在6点，且不随黄昏/夜晚提高

---Abgail受赐血肉，代价是她的力量变小了，她甚至无法再轻易杀死蜘蛛

Wendy的攻击力根据白天/黄昏/夜晚变化为0.75/1.0/1.25

---Wendy获得了Abgail的力量，在夜晚/黄昏，她拥有更高的攻击力

Abgai受到伤害减免50%，且被BOSS攻击不再承受双倍伤害

---Abgail受到血肉滋养，能更好的陪伴她的姐妹

 

让-Abgail替Wendy承受伤害×

让Abgail战斗，Wendy挂机×

让Abgail提高协助，由玩家操控的Wendy来保护她的姐妹！ ✔

 

Abgail 获得了肉体，Wendy 获得了力量。

取消花罩的 15% 移动惩罚，
效果重新设计如下：

Wendy 的最大 HP、SAN 和 Hunger 减少 15%。
---Wendy 与 Abgail 共享她的肉体，因为她的最大值降低
Abgail 攻击力的代价保持在 6 点，并且不会随着黄昏/夜晚的增加而增加。
- Abgail 被赋予了血肉，但以她的力量减弱为代价，她不再能够轻易杀死蜘蛛。
Wendy 的攻击力根据白天/黄昏/黑夜而变化，分别为 0.75/1.0/1.25。
---温蒂获得了阿布盖尔的力量，在夜晚/黄昏时，她的攻击力更高。
Abgail 获得 50% 的伤害减免，并且不再受到 Boss 攻击的双倍伤害。。
--- Abgail 受到肉体的滋养，能够更好地陪伴她的姐姐

让-阿布盖尔首当其冲地为温蒂×
让阿布盖尔战斗，而温蒂则退缩×
让 Abgail 助攻，由玩家控制的温蒂保护她的妹妹！ ✔

[Sapientis]

I like some ideas in her skilltree, it just feels very low impact and kind of unbaked. The ideas are there, execution and design left the chat.

But Wendy is hard to do well. Because of how popular she is, her skilltree needs to be meaningful and interesting at least, even if it doesn't make her that much stronger.

I go over it in my topic:

 

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

• griefing Wendy Spawns in
• griefing Wendy relocates all graves/adds new graves to the centre of the communal Base
• griefing Wendy Leaves the game, her work done

Wendy can just steal the Graves and logout

Even unintentionally!

[gaymime]

3 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

And most likely Wes is going to get treated same way aswell. So these three poor guys are forever cursed to be the Wilson, Wilson*2, Wilson*0.5.

i know i should not have laughed but this is a pretty solid joke XD

3 hours ago, WenericMember said:

I agree with the sentiment, but I think instead of "1 super OP ability" its more "a cohesive focus for the skill tree."

All the skill trees up until Wendy's have had a significant, (usually) in depth and unique mechanic attatched to them. Wormwood got bramble skills and alignment summons, Woodie got a whole bunch of unique mechanics tied to the were form, Wolfgang got... a lot of damage, Willow Embers, Wigfrid Weapon upgrades, Wurt more depth to merm civilization, Winona alignment.

The most mechanically unique thing Wendy has is in her tree is dark petals, which can be used for... Flower Shroud & Nightmare Fuel. It doesn't really compare.

she literally is the sole character in the game that can move/create graves. they were, until now, wholly stationary and what you got at world gen was ALL you got in a world no matter what. this is a game-changer for basebuilders and ghost-farmers. no it isn't going to do a lot for battling but it IS unique and it is uniquely wendy's

[WenericMember]

5 minutes ago, gaymime said:

i know i should not have laughed but this is a pretty solid joke XD

she literally is the sole character in the game that can move/create graves. they were, until now, wholly stationary and what you got at world gen was ALL you got in a world no matter what. this is a game-changer for basebuilders and ghost-farmers. no it isn't going to do a lot for battling but it IS unique and it is uniquely wendy's

You're right but... so what? Yes its nice for megabasers, but pretty much ever other character has no reason to interact with graves.

It's not something that would be interesting for 80% of players, which is the source of most people's issues.

[gaymime]

2 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

You're right but... so what? Yes its nice for megabasers, but pretty much ever other character has no reason to interact with graves.

if they have a shovel and a need then they will interact. there is a reason every single pub grave is looted pretty much immediately. grave loot is pretty valuable in a multiplayer setting which klei has made clear, time and again, that they are wholly invested in. for people playing by themselves who are not invested in basing sure you have a point but those are not the only players of the game

[hyoton123]

My conclusion from the wendy skilltree arguments is that, and I mean this as politely as possible, a lot of people should be playing other characters for the experience.

[WenericMember]

8 minutes ago, gaymime said:

if they have a shovel and a need then they will interact. there is a reason every single pub grave is looted pretty much immediately. grave loot is pretty valuable in a multiplayer setting which klei has made clear, time and again, that they are wholly invested in. for people playing by themselves who are not invested in basing sure you have a point but those are not the only players of the game

I'm not saying having skills that interact with graves isn't a useful perk. I object to the notion that it's comparable to the centerpieces of most survivors skill trees. Other survivors got skills that fundamentally changed the way people played aspects of the game. Wigfrid got many new methods of engagingly in combat between her three new weapons. Willow got huge incentives for fire based combat, etc. Wurt got significant additions of the Merms, with the King quests and new tools. Things that are flashy, things that have significant mechanical depth, things that are widely usable by everyone.

The graves skills are closer to Wormwood's ability to create various saplings - objectively very useful, but pretty boring to many.

[Mike23Ua]

9 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

You're right but... so what? Yes its nice for megabasers, but pretty much ever other character has no reason to interact with graves.

It's not something that would be interesting for 80% of players, which is the source of most people's issues.

Winona has a pair of glasses that when worn allows her to choose between the games wormhole locations to pick the one she wants to be spawned back out from.’

Gravestones made by Wendy that are decorated should “attract” the recently departed to their final resting places.. 

Aka: It sends a dead players ghost to the tombstone to respawn which while yes there’s a ton of griefing potential in that….

It would also replace the uselessness that currently is placing down a trail of vigor Mortis bottles so dead player ghosts can “haunt” them and get an after life speed boost, which only helps them boringly float back the florid portal to respawn themselves (on endless mode)

Also I’m kind of curious as to how well Klei though this skill tree out….. there are modes and server settings that HAVE no player ghost so the whole “dead players can temporarily wreck havoc on the living realm” skill is absolutely pointless in Wilderness mode where there aren’t ANY Ghost players cause they just instant respawn.

[gaymime]

3 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I'm not saying having skills that interact with graves isn't a useful perk. I object to the notion that it's comparable to the centerpieces of most survivors skill trees. Other survivors got skills that fundamentally changed the way people played aspects of the game. Wigfrid got many new methods of engagingly in combat between her three new weapons. Willow got huge incentives for fire based combat, etc. Things that are flashy, things that have significant mechanical depth, things that are widely usable by everyone.

The graves skills are closer to Wormwood's ability to create various saplings - objectively very useful, but pretty boring to many.

who said comparable? "comparable" is a non-sense term that has wholly different meanings for every single player and is outside of the perview of the original statement(which is part of why there is so much fighting going on rn). you said she had nothing unique. this is very much unique.

[WenericMember]

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Also I’m kind of curious as to how well Klei though this skill tree out….. there are modes and server settings that HAVE no player ghost so the whole “dead players can temporarily wreck havoc on the living realm” skill is absolutely pointless in Wilderness mode where there aren’t ANY Ghost players cause they just instant respawn.

I def feel like this update was originally just Walter + Wortox, considering how unfinished so many aspects of her skill tree is. The flower shroud doesn't even have a inspect quote, Gesalt Abi & dodge command Abi look off, Wendy's homemade graves are identical to the naturally generated ones,  the awful balancing state the beta began in, the (comparative) lack of new mechanics, along with a fair few skills that just... have a confused purpose, like the "terrorise" skill, the original shadow allegiance, Deep Draught, and yes, Vengeful spirit when worlds don't have ghosts.

Which is odd considering her popularity.

Also, while pretty much every other survivor has a unique "shadow" and "lunar" alignment name (except for walter), like Wortox's shadow harvester and lunar swindler, Wendy's stuck with "Shadow Allegiance I-III" and Lunar Allegiance I-III."

Why is Blessed Sisturn II part of that line too? It doesn't have anything to do with the sisturn.

14 minutes ago, gaymime said:

who said comparable? "comparable" is a non-sense term that has wholly different meanings for every single player and is outside of the perview of the original statement(which is part of why there is so much fighting going on rn). you said she had nothing unique. this is very much unique.

My original statement was:

Quote

I agree with the sentiment, but I think instead of "1 super OP ability" its more "a cohesive focus for the skill tree."

All the skill trees up until Wendy's have had a significant, (usually) in depth and unique mechanic attatched to them.

...

The most mechanically unique thing Wendy has is in her tree is dark petals, which can be used for... Flower Shroud & Nightmare Fuel. It doesn't really compare.

The last line was an indirect comparison to the other trees, she has some interesting things, just nothing on the magnitude of other.

And I said mechanically unique. Moving graves is just like moving any other object. 

[gaymime]

On 11/27/2024 at 2:12 AM, WenericMember said:

I def feel like this update was originally just Walter + Wortox, considering how unfinished so many aspects of her skill tree is. The flower shroud doesn't even have a inspect quote, Gesalt Abi & dodge command Abi look off, Wendy's homemade graves are identical to the naturally generated ones,  the awful balancing state the beta began in, the (comparative) lack of new mechanics, along with a fair few skills that just... have a confused purpose, like the "terrorise" skill, the original shadow allegiance, Deep Draught, and yes, Vengeful spirit when worlds don't have ghosts.

Which is odd considering her popularity.

Also, while pretty much every other survivor has a unique "shadow" and "lunar" alignment name (except for walter), like Wortox's shadow harvester and lunar swindler, Wendy's stuck with "Shadow Allegiance I-III" and Lunar Allegiance I-III."

Why is Blessed Sisturn II part of that line too? It doesn't have anything to do with the sisturn.

My original statement was:

The last line was an indirect comparison to the other trees, she has some interesting things, just nothing on the magnitude of other.

And I said mechanically unique. Moving graves is just like moving any other object. 

under that stipulation i am not sure any of the survivors have a unique skill. maybe you could argue maxwell but the rabbit king mostly does the same thing so not really even him. are you proposing wendy be the first character with a skill that has no overlap with any other survivor or world mechanic? that seems beyond excessive and indulgant

[WenericMember]

18 minutes ago, gaymime said:

under that stipulation i am not sure any of the survivors have a unique skill. maybe you could argue maxwell but the rabbit king mostly does the same thing so not really even him. are you proposing wendy be the first character with a skill that has no overlap with any other survivor or world mechanic? that seems beyond excessive and indulgant

By my reckoning (specifically from skill trees:

• Wormwood: lunar summons
• Woodie: Wereforms, treeguard idol
• Wigfrid: Custom Weapons & Upgrades
• Willow: Ember System
• Winona: Most of her alignment perks
• Wurt: Merm Upgrades
• Haven't messed around with Wortox and Walter much

They're all things that have a bunch of unique characteristics that significantly affect playstyle & add to the gameplay loop. They're all brand new art, animations, and at least rare mechanics. If you disagree, whatever but I don't see how its anything comparable to the ability to move an item. The ability to move gravestones is more useful for griefing than it is in a normal playthrough.

 

[AliceMagtron]

On 11/26/2024 at 9:17 PM, Mysterious box said:

She was in a poor state pre skill tree

what do u mean? winona is S tier with pre skill, do u have any idea how many factories in DST are made by winona and how many boss fights are so simple with winona? her resource investment is definitely worth. well anyway catapults. if u mean that u can easily change character then everyone is worthless except maxwell and wolfgong. even grannys book can be read by maxwell. is that means wickerbottom is weak?

 

On 11/26/2024 at 9:41 PM, Mysterious box said:

That's called a double standard plain and simple.

that should be a perfect word for jeson who designed powerful wurt wolfgong and winona skill tree but use the reason that" wendy is strong" to give her a scheiss skill tree.

On 11/26/2024 at 9:32 PM, Mysterious box said:

Explain to me what new skill he got in his skill tree that made him more fun? Was it the whistle or the elemental dumbells? Because those are the only 2 new things they added.

new thing doesnt equal fun or u think wigs beefalo line is fun or wurts mosquito line is fun or wilsons torch line is fun? in fact these are the most criticzed parts. but i agree wolfgongs skill tree is boring, since this character designed for unique double dmg, thats how most problem cause.