Please calm down about wendy.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, AliceMagtron said:

what do u mean? winona is S tier with pre skill, do u have any idea how many factories in DST are made by winona and how many boss fights are so simple with winona? her resource investment is definitely worth. well anyway catapults. if u mean that u can easily change character then everyone is worthless except maxwell and wolfgong. even grannys book can be read by maxwell. is that means wickerbottom is weak?

Pre skill tree after you placed her catapults why exactly would you play her? Was her tape that valuable to you? The same really applies to Wickerbottom but at least she could carry her toolset with her. After you setup catapults you're Wilson with crafting gimmick and tape her catapults are strong but is the knowledge that you can go to the catapults to kill something you setup really enough to keep her engaging the rest of the time you're playing her? I'd say that's a poor state.

2 minutes ago, AliceMagtron said:

that should be a perfect word for jeson who designed powerful wurt wolfgong and wurts skill tree but use the reason that" wendy is strong" to give her a scheiss skill tree.

Wolfgang's skill tree was made to fix the issue of his damage not being good post rift when that was really all he offered.

Wurt's skill tree was made to lessen the grind on Wurt I'm not sure if you've realized but pre skill tree Wurt and post skill tree Wurt have the same potential which is why some people didn't like it as all it really did was lower the number of merms needed excluding the addition of tools that let merms dig and till. Take away her skill tree and the end result is still there it just takes more time to build.

5 minutes ago, AliceMagtron said:

new thing doesnt equal fun or u think wigs beefalo line is fun or wurts mosquito line is fun? in fect these are the most criticzed parts. but i agree wolfgongs skill tree is boring, but this character designed for unique double dmg, thats how most problem cause.

Wurt's mosquito crafts are fun I've been a huge supporter of them even if some people disagree with me. They feel fitting and a logical step for her character to take.

Wolfgang is designed to deal double damage because that's really the only perk of his people value. It'd be like complaining about how powerful Wendy's free aoe damage is because as much as you like to downplay it that is really powerful as well.

If you want my opinion on how Wendy should have been handled I feel they should have doubled down on her aoe damage abilities and horde clearing instead of trying to make Abigail boss viable.

[gaymime]

2 hours ago, WenericMember said:

By my reckoning (specifically from skill trees:

• Wormwood: lunar summons
• Woodie: Wereforms, treeguard idol
• Wigfrid: Custom Weapons & Upgrades
• Willow: Ember System
• Winona: Most of her alignment perks
• Wurt: Merm Upgrades
• Haven't messed around with Wortox and Walter much

They're all things that have a bunch of unique characteristics that significantly affect playstyle & add to the gameplay loop. They're all brand new art, animations, and at least rare mechanics. If you disagree, whatever but I don't see how its anything comparable to the ability to move an item. The ability to move gravestones is more useful for griefing than it is in a normal playthrough.

 

the problem with your position is that you seem to think that you can play very dumb wordgames to change the meaning of things but if we use your own specified logic to justify or refute things then you are still wrong. if we take a unique feature and count it as unique then you are wrong about wendy having nothing unique to her, if you reduce a feature to its rudimentary mechanics then there are no characters in the game that have a unique feature that is not utilized by one or more other characters which makes you wrong when you claim others do in fact have unique features. playing a round-about game of "it only counts if i say so" makes you look like a fool. but fine, ok then, lets go over the list using your stance that it needs to be something others can't actually do then;

the celestial crown has lunar summons and is available to all survivours

all survivors have a wereform(wonky) also all survivors can create treeguards(and if you count ds wilba halso has a wereform that even uses the same mechanical system as woodie)

wanda has a custom weapon as does walter and walter's can be upgraded(through the use of different rounds)

all survivors can alter their susceptibility to temp, walter can also fast-cook and multiple characters have custom sanity modifiers,

winona's alignment perks are just building structures and using structures which you yourself have already said is not "unique" since all characters can build things

all survivours can build mob houses, feed healing items to friendly mobs and can dress their mob followers in defence-boosting hats. in particular webber can even do it with species-aligned friendly mobs(and change their stats & appearances as well)

 

tl:dr?

wendy and wurt both can build a structure that already exists in the game that no other character can build(graves and mermhouses respectivly) if we judge these skills based on the fact that they are building structures that no other characters can build then they each have a UNIQUE skill. if we are only counting the act of building structures then neither of them have a unique skill. you can choose which parameter you want to say counts and argue that but you cannot logically only count one of them as having a unique skill in this instance by using one parameter on one and the other on the other.

 

[salty_cookie]

11 minutes ago, gaymime said:

all survivours can build mob houses, feed healing items to friendly mobs and can dress their mob followers in defence-boosting hats.

Press X to doubt

[gaymime]

Just now, salty_cookie said:

Press X to doubt

pig houses are avalible to all survivours, pigs can be fed food with heath benefits and pigs can have hats that boost their defenses. webber can do these with spiders as well

[salty_cookie]

Hats can only be given to pigs, bunnymen, spiders and merms. 1 survivor has access to none of them.

[WenericMember]

49 minutes ago, gaymime said:

tl:dr?

wendy and wurt both can build a structure that already exists in the game that no other character can build(graves and mermhouses respectivly) if we judge these skills based on the fact that they are building structures that no other characters can build then they each have a UNIQUE skill. if we are only counting the act of building structures then neither of them have a unique skill. you can choose which parameter you want to say counts and argue that but you cannot logically only count one of them as having a unique skill in this instance by using one parameter on one and the other on the other.

 

I'm talking about skill trees.

Yes Wendy & Wurt can both build structures. But While wurt the ability to upgrade via 3 king quests, armermory, communal dish, swamp sense, itchcraft items, tool shed and mutated marshes, Wendy got the ability to move graves. Wurts is a complete rework to how the merm mechanics works. Wendy got some QOL.

Look i'm probably not explaining what I mean in the most acute way, I get that. But saying there's no difference between that and Graves is insane to me. I don't know how you aren't getting the fact that Wendy's skill tree doesn't have a distinct core identity in comparison to the other survivors.

I look at Willows Tree. I see "Oh a focus on Bernie and Spellcasting" within seconds. I look at Woodies, I think "a focus on sepcializing in Wereforms" her I look at Wigfrid's tree, I think "Oh A focus on new & upgraded weapons." I look at Wendy's skill tree and think "Graves can be moved now."

There isn't cohesion, there isn't a bigger picture. None of the skills interact cohesively outside of a lose connection between beautified graves and Dark Petals I as a new resource economy, when Wendy already has one.There are two lines that try to fix the potion economy in different wells, 3-4 skills that will attempt to increase abigails survival, but in completely different ways instead of building one core identity. There's only two skills that interact with the sisturn, only one (divided into three tiers) that interact with potions.

Other skill trees are greater than the sum of their parts. I don't feel like Wendy's is.

I don't know how to explain it with any more detail that.

What is the focus of Wendy's skill tree?

[cyjs]

7 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I'm talking about skill trees.

Yes Wendy & Wurt can both build structures. But While wurt the ability to upgrade via 3 king quests, armermory, communal dish, swamp sense, itchcraft items, tool shed and mutated marshes, Wendy got the ability to move graves. Wurts is a complete rework to how the merm mechanics works. Wendy got some QOL.

Look i'm probably not explaining what I mean in the most acute way, I get that. But saying there's no difference between that and Graves is insane to me. I don't know how you aren't getting the fact that Wendy's skill tree doesn't have a distinct core identity in comparison to the other survivors.

I look at Willows Tree. I see "Oh a focus on Bernie and Spellcasting" within seconds. I look at Woodies, I think "a focus on sepcializing in Wereforms" her I look at Wigfrid's tree, I think "Oh A focus on new & upgraded weapons." I look at Wendy's skill tree and think "Graves can be moved now."

There isn't cohesion, there isn't a bigger picture. None of the skills interact cohesively outside of a lose connection between beautified graves and Dark Petals I as a new resource economy, when Wendy already has one.

I don't know how to explain it with any more detail that.

I would describe Wendy's skill tree as uncreative，No fun 

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, cyjs said:

I would describe Wendy's skill tree as uncreative，No fun (if you think digging graves is fun then I didn’t say so)

That's one way of putting it.

I'd personally say while it's not uninspired, its uninspiring

There's no real sense that "this has hidden depth that I'll be able to extract with thought and skill."

[cyjs]

3 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

这是一种表达方式。

我个人想说，虽然它不是没有灵感，但它没有灵感

没有真正意义上的“这隐藏了我能够通过思想和技巧提取的深度”。

Am I a little rude? What I want to express is that I agree with what you said. I completely agree.

[WenericMember]

4 minutes ago, cyjs said:

Am I a little rude? What I want to express is that I agree with what you said. I completely agree.

No, you're good. I was just trying to find a way to say it in my own words.

I phrased poorly

[gaymime]

31 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I'm talking about skill trees.

Yes Wendy & Wurt can both build structures. But While wurt the ability to upgrade via 3 king quests, armermory, communal dish, swamp sense, itchcraft items, tool shed and mutated marshes, Wendy got the ability to move graves. Wurts is a complete rework to how the merm mechanics works. Wendy got some QOL.

Look i'm probably not explaining what I mean in the most acute way, I get that. But saying there's no difference between that and Graves is insane to me. I don't know how you aren't getting the fact that Wendy's skill tree doesn't have a distinct core identity in comparison to the other survivors.

I look at Willows Tree. I see "Oh a focus on Bernie and Spellcasting" within seconds. I look at Woodies, I think "a focus on sepcializing in Wereforms" her I look at Wigfrid's tree, I think "Oh A focus on new & upgraded weapons." I look at Wendy's skill tree and think "Graves can be moved now."

There isn't cohesion, there isn't a bigger picture. None of the skills interact cohesively outside of a lose connection between beautified graves and Dark Petals I as a new resource economy, when Wendy already has one.There are two lines that try to fix the potion economy in different wells, 3-4 skills that will attempt to increase abigails survival, but in completely different ways instead of building one core identity. There's only two skills that interact with the sisturn, only one (divided into three tiers) that interact with potions.

I don't know how to explain it with any more detail that.

What is the focus of Wendy's skill tree?

but here is the thing; what you are saying and what you are trying to express are two different things. i can understand your frustration and intent when you say "Wendy's skill tree doesn't have a distinct core identity" but when you say "The most mechanically unique thing Wendy has is in her tree is dark petals, which can be used for... Flower Shroud & Nightmare Fuel. It doesn't really compare." you are saying something very different. one is talking about the perceived expression of the character's design through their skill tree which can be argued(and has been argued a lot this week), the other is complaining that the character lacks a certain executable function which cannot be argued because it is simply verifiably untrue. i am not arguing with you about whether or not you can see the value and cohesion of her skills & skilltree i am arguing about the method in which you expressed it (that is saying something untrue) and the method in which you defended it (reducing it down to its most bare-bones mechanical traits.

if you want the focus of her skill tree? it is probably expanding on her designation as a floromancer(not to be confused with flowermancy) and burgeoning occultist which are both things she was already established as dabbling in through her lore(and vaguely expressed through her fascination with flowers and the dead in-game)

 

edit;

gonna be legit though i have the idea that a lot of this is not actually about characters "making sense" in the mechnaical sense so much as it is about characters having a strong/weak "personality" and people getting confused why there are parts to their mechanics that are not utilitarian to how they function as a videogame character. characters like willow and wx are narrativity strong and people understood them easily and they are as uncomplicated as one can get with their stories so their reworks went over about as smoothly as one could expect, fire girl? fire elemental! robot? mechanical upgrades! but characters that have a more nebulous personality or complicated story get accused of having nonsense skills and upgrades, science man who doesnt understand science and confuses it and magic? alchemy???? fighter lady who is also a musician and actress of the stage? singing????? they are too confusing for people who are not invested in the story part of the equation(or just are not educated in it)and only focus on the actual mechanical properties of their skills. klei wants these characters to have abilities that compliment and expound upon their lore and when their lore is not surface-level it seems to anger a lot of people into assuming there is no good reason for the additions.

26 minutes ago, cyjs said:

I would describe Wendy's skill tree as uncreative，No fun 

if you could change it then how would you make it creative?

[WenericMember]

24 minutes ago, gaymime said:

but here is the thing; what you are saying and what you are trying to express are two different things. i can understand your frustration and intent when you say "Wendy's skill tree doesn't have a distinct core identity" but when you say "The most mechanically unique thing Wendy has is in her tree is dark petals, which can be used for... Flower Shroud & Nightmare Fuel. It doesn't really compare." you are saying something very different. one is talking about the perceived expression of the character's design through their skill tree which can be argued(and has been argued a lot this week), the other is complaining that the character lacks a certain executable function which cannot be argued because it is simply verifiably untrue. i am not arguing with you about whether or not you can see the value and cohesion of her skills & skilltree i am arguing about the method in which you expressed it (that is saying something untrue) and the method in which you defended it (reducing it down to its most bare-bones mechanical traits.

if you want the focus of her skill tree? it is probably expanding on her designation as a floromancer(not to be confused with flowermancy) and burgeoning occultist which are both things she was already established as dabbling in through her lore(and vaguely expressed through her fascination with flowers and the dead in-game)

In terms of mechanics, I'm mainly referring to a cohesive set of interactions, hence why in the original post I was comparing it to the other skill trees. I would consider wortox's souls a "mechanic" incorporating unique interactions of Soul hop, eating souls, freeing souls, etc. So Wendy's grave "mechanic" is the ability to decorate graves, move graves and create graves. My ultimate point being that Wendy's skill tree lacks a cohesive central set of skills to create an enticing mechanic, in comparison to the other survivors.

I have a separate issue with the grave relocation & graves by Wendy skill, in that a tier 2 & 3 skill effectively just applies the twig sapling shovel interaction to another object, but that's unrelated.

For the latter paragraph, that's my problem though, that focus isn't a gameplay focus, it's a theming focus. The theming on her tree is good, but it doesn't translate that cohesion to gameplay.

Edit: side note I think we had a similar issue earlier, where you were saying "fighter" to refer to a specific combat archetype, but people interpreted you as saying Wendy wasn't a combat character lol.

[cyjs]

17 minutes ago, gaymime said:

 

如果你可以改变它，你会如何让它变得有创意？

I'd let Wendy enjoy the effects of the potion slightly to some degree, it would be fun and it doesn't have to be strong,

[gaymime]

1 minute ago, WenericMember said:

In terms of mechanics, I'm mainly referring to a cohesive set of interactions, hence why in the original post I was comparing it to the other skill trees. I would consider wortox's souls a "mechanic" incorporating unique interactions of Soul hop, eating souls, freeing souls, etc. So Wendy's grave "mechanic" is the ability to decorate graves, move graves and create graves. My ultimate point being that Wendy's skill tree lacks a cohesive central set of skills to create an enticing mechanic.

I have a separate issue with the graves by Wendy skill, in that a tier 3 skill effectively just applies the twig sapling shovel mechanic to another object, but that's unrelated.

For the latter paragraph, that's my problem though, that focus isn't a gameplay focus, it's a theming focus. The theming on her tree is good, but it doesn't translate that cohesion to gameplay.

and said like this i agree with you. her skill-set as a whole is not enticing to a lot of players and her theming doesn't translate super well to how people generally play her(though i can actually see how klei was intending her to be played which is clever but also is still not suited to how most people play)

4 minutes ago, cyjs said:

I'd let Wendy enjoy the effects of the potion slightly to some degree, it would be fun and it doesn't have to be strong,

new potions or her existing ones?

[cyjs]

11 minutes ago, gaymime said:

 

新药水还是她现有的药水？

Current potions, such as essential oils, slightly increase movement speed, Unyielding Potion can resist certain damage, and Shadow Oil can increase some damage，For a limited time。two bottles can be used at the same time, which allows players to face different situations. Choose from different combinations. It would definitely be cool, so I don't know if there are any side effects. I think there needs to be some cost to balance it out

[WenericMember]

16 minutes ago, gaymime said:

and said like this i agree with you. her skill-set as a whole is not enticing to a lot of players and her theming doesn't translate super well to how people generally play her(though i can actually see how klei was intending her to be played which is clever but also is still not suited to how most people play)

It's just so... weird. There's good stuff, but its so fragmented.

Any pretty much single skill line could have 3 extra skills attatched to it and It would become a cohesive tree.

• Team Spirit focuses on giving tools to precisely control abigail, in comparison to the more general movement of other followers/summons
• Headstones could focus gravestones becoming sacred places with a series of benefits when cared for
• Dark Petals could focus on giving life to an underutilized resource with a bunch of crafts
• Blessed Sisturn could focus on upgrading Abigail's interaction with the sisturn, and using it to "configure" Abigail.
• While deep draught isn't well designed, skills around temporarily upgrading Abigail with new potion effects and specific upgrades to existing ones would work well too, along with the storage.
• Heck even vengeful ghost could create a tree focused about balancing on the edge of life and death to wreck havoc as a ghost

Instead they don't commit to anything and it just doesn't end up well.

Designing her tree for casual players who just want to survive is also conflicting because... she's already the best in the game at that.

[cyjs]

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

.

Designing her tree for casual players who just want to survive is also conflicting because... she's already the best in the game at that.

Totally agree bro, There’s no reason to make convenience more convenient

[Echsrick]

yea, lets talk more about characters in need, like wortox and walter