Klei needs to stop trying to turn Don’t Starve into Terraria

[mmmmmmmmmmm]

On 10/9/2024 at 8:38 PM, DegenerateFurry said:

That's not what I said at all. I'm just saying that some bugs are so accepted that they even get implemented as features later on. It's to prove that bugs can be beneficial to a game, which means they aren't inherently bad, which means that patching them is not always the right move. Some should just be left in because they're not hurting anyone, and the Lure Plant cheese wasn't hurting anyone and should've been left in.

but we did get an actual, legit replacement for it, being dreadstone pillars (they can't be broken by any mobs, but have large hitboxes) and finally have a high enough cost to kinda justify killing bosses so easily (e.g. would you rather farm a ton of resources and set up a cheese with 5 hours of work, or actually have skill and jump in the fight with a hambat and a few pieces of armor)

[Mellify]

On 10/10/2024 at 3:56 AM, Gashzer said:

Spoken like a true pc player. Switching between weapon and cane is chunky on consoles. Now add weatherpain, healing, lazy Explorer, general aiming, nightmare amulet, armour. This is alot of switching to do on consoles and makes for a terrible experience during AFW fight for example.

lazy explorer is literally the worst thing ever on console, you can teleport like 3 feet in front of you max.
same with wortox

[oCrapaCreeper]

On 10/9/2024 at 8:33 AM, DegenerateFurry said:

In Team Fortress 2, the Demoman character can use a shield weapon to charge at high speeds. Players discovered that charging, especially while turning, against certain sloped map geometry will cause them to fly through the air quickly. What did Valve do? Did they patch that out? No. Instead, when they made a melee-only mode where those shields are very useful, they actually put a specific sloped rock on the map that's very easy to launch yourself into the enemy base with. They later added a shield that gives you full turning control (making it way easier to use for that on any map).

 

This is wrong. Charging into the air was intentionally added in the Uber Update to fix many bugs relating the Demoman charge randomly stopping. The slope you are talking about is part of Degroot Keep which existed before you could trimp. You're probably thinking about turning while charging, which WAS a bug and got PATCHED despite the fact it made Demoknight actually viable. It was only after Demoknight players cried like babies that they added the tide turner, which has been nerfed into garbage since then.

I've played TF2 since 2007 and was there when all of those changes were made. Charging in the air was not possible when the Chargin' Targe was added in the 2009.

Quote

In DOOM: Eternal, the Super Shotgun's Meat Hook was intended to let you grapple directly towards demons, but players discovered they could strafe and turn while grappling to gain substantial amounts of momentum, which gave them much more freedom of aerial movement. Though unintended, this was later accepted officially by the developers when they added platforming challenges that require you to do it, once again due to them realizing that it's something players enjoy. 

This is also wrong, yeet hooks were always intended and part of how you properly play Eternal. The problem was that the grapple momentum was tied to FPS, so console players couldn't do it as well as PC. The devs tuned the way it works so that console players could yeethook without having the FPS of a PC, which allowed the feature to be better integrated into TAG2 as grapple points.

As for the point itself - devs have every right to remove a bug. Whether or not they re-add it as a feature is also entirely up to them, there is no obligation to do so because at the end of the day unintended behavior is not intended no matter how sentimental the player base gets.

[DegenerateFurry]

41 minutes ago, oCrapaCreeper said:

This is wrong. Charging into the air was intentionally added in the Uber Update to fix many bugs relating the Demoman charge randomly stopping. The slope you are talking about is part of Degroot Keep which existed before you could trimp. You're probably thinking about turning while charging, which WAS a bug and got PATCHED despite the fact it made Demoknight actually viable. It was only after Demoknight players cried like babies that they added the tide turner, which has been nerfed into garbage since then.

I've played TF2 since 2007 and was there when all of those changes were made. Charging in the air was not possible when the Chargin' Targe was added in the 2009.

I feel the need to address your points despite the high salinity of your post.

So, first off: they never patched out being able to turn while charging. The booties/bootlegger have always allowed players to do that to a limited degree, and they actually updated them to let you turn twice as much back in 2014, and the only thing related to charge turning/trimping that got patched out was using DPI/arrow keys to turn faster than you should've been able to. 

Your mention of the Tide Turner being added "because Demoknight players cried like babies", despite the Chernobyllian toxicity of the phrasing of that claim, actually serves my point: good developers see what the community likes to do and either leave it in or add an official, more balanced way to do it. Valve saw that there was a lot of fun to be had with trimping/charge turning and that people wanted to keep it, so they added a way to do it that wasn't a glitch in exchange for losing remaining charge time by taking damage and having weaker resistances. So, thanks for confirming that I'm right, I guess? Could've been nicer about doing it, though.

41 minutes ago, oCrapaCreeper said:

This is also wrong, yeet hooks were always intended and part of how you properly play Eternal. The problem was that the grapple momentum was tied to FPS, so console players couldn't do it as well as PC. The devs tuned the way it works so that console players could yeethook without having the FPS of a PC, which allowed the feature to be better integrated into TAG2 as grapple points.

As for the DOOM: Eternal Meat Hook stuff - you're just wrong here. There's an interview with Hugo Martin where he explicitly states that they didn't know players could do that and were surprised when they saw players using the Meat Hook in that way, but they decided to keep it in because it was cool and fun and they later integrated it as a platforming feature.

41 minutes ago, oCrapaCreeper said:

As for the point itself - devs have every right to remove a bug. Whether or not they re-add it as a feature is also entirely up to them, there is no obligation to do so because at the end of the day unintended behavior is not intended no matter how sentimental the player base gets.

Lastly, this is just an appeal to authority fallacy, but let me show you why it's a terrible argument rather than just dismissing it for what it is. 

Say that a developer, much like Klei, has put out a game that has cosmetic skins that people can spend money to get. Those skins need some kind of verification with a server for you to be able to use them (at least without some piracy-level modding to use skins you don't own). A developer could, at any time, drop support for those skins in their old game, get rid of official servers, and release a new game at a higher price to force people to re-purchase everything. That is their "right" - you don't really own a product that has to be sustained by a studio keeping item servers up, all those skins are data they can take back from you at any time, and it's in the terms of service that you agreed to before playing.

Now, if a game developer did that, you know what'd happen? The same thing that happened to Overwatch 2 when Blizzard shut off Overwatch's servers just so players would have to buy stuff in the new game and play it instead. Their new game would get mass-boycotted and would fail. Its reviews would plummet to further depths than were previously known to exist on this Earth within days of release and would never really recover. All of that would be completely deserved, as well, because it's terrible anti-consumer behavior.

The fact that a company can do something doesn't mean that they should do it. Some decisions are outright detrimental to a game's health, and patching every single unintended feature out just because they're unintended without seriously looking at why players used them and acting accordingly is often detrimental. 

[GetNerfedOn]

On 10/14/2024 at 6:59 PM, W0l0l0 said:

Might be worth doing some polls, but if I'm honest I don't think people will do.

I am a simple man: i see the opportunity to poll; i poll.

However, the problem lies within my attempts (and subsequent failure thereof) to follow the train of discussion in these here thread. If i have it right, is the discussion here about forced gameplay choices in DST's progression? or am i misunderstanding the point?

[DegenerateFurry]

2 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

I am a simple man: i see the opportunity to poll; i poll.

However, the problem lies within my attempts (and subsequent failure thereof) to follow the train of discussion in these here thread. If i have it right, is the discussion here about forced gameplay choices in DST's progression? or am i misunderstanding the point?

It started out as a question about the direction the game's going (if Klei should focus on adding bosses or other things) and somehow became a debate about whether or not it's possible for an unintended mechanic to be good or if all bugs should be patched regardless of how much people enjoy them.

This thread is a mess, honestly.

[GetNerfedOn]

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

It started out as a question about the direction the game's going (if Klei should focus on adding bosses or other things) and somehow became a debate about whether or not it's possible for an unintended mechanic to be good or if all bugs should be patched regardless of how much people enjoy them.

This thread is a mess, honestly.

A good start. 

[W0l0l0]

18 hours ago, GetNerfedOn said:

I am a simple man: i see the opportunity to poll; i poll.

However, the problem lies within my attempts (and subsequent failure thereof) to follow the train of discussion in these here thread. If i have it right, is the discussion here about forced gameplay choices in DST's progression? or am i misunderstanding the point?

Yeah, meanings have certainly been mixed and messed. I've suggested adding a poll to imply that it's something to look into, that neither of us knew the answer to. I'm not sure it's a straightforward poll.

The intent is a poll on what extent people are challenging themselves. Do people seek a challenge, or just the easiest way to tick boxes to complete the game? Who fights Toadstool, how many people try Dragonfly without walls and/or panflute? How many people try characters because their mechanical depth takes priority over their power? How many people still try to brave the summer without caves/oasis? Whats the preferred Ancient Fuelweaver strategy? How many people are still farming despite the power creep making it somewhat weak? To what extent do people deviate from what is easiest in the pursuit of fun. My argument is that Klei often needs to force us to do it; I'm skeptical that players are challenging themselves.