how would ya feel if insight was limited, but there was be more ways to get it?

[fabin]

the only aspect i'm bothered by when skill trees are in play, is that once you get the insight once... you just kinda get unlimited right power outta the gate

so, i've been experimenting stuff myself, starting out with only a set amount of skills and then unlocking stuff once enough time has passed/i achieve one "goal" i've set myself. and honestly? it's been way more fun than starting with all 15 points

what i had in mind, mainly, is that you start with 5 insight

that's enough to get some gameplay altering skills, such as one of woodie's curse masteries, a handful of lighter skills for willow, energy-saving + whatever you want for winona, for wurt... um... i dunno what's good on wurt (i don't like playing as her), etc.

and to get more insight, you either sit on your butt waiting for them, or you go out of your way to get them faster! such as: findin' the ruins, findin' the archives, turnin' on the archives, goin' to lunar island, visitin' pearl, etc. although, each insight wouldn't reset the timer for points, so you'd still get stuff from waiting! (or they'd increase it by a small amount, so as to not be too fast)

and to not undervalue the shadow alignments, maybe they could be unlockable from the start? since they're mostly aimed at early-game

so. thoughts?

[arubaro]

The current system is as unispired as the skill trees themselves 

[Gashzer]

Normal adults don't have a millions hours to play DST. Sometimes i want to play for an hour, rush a few bosses using all the power that insight points can bring then call it a day.

If i have spent the time to unlock insight points once I dont want to do it everytime for every character, if i want to start a new world or join a pub game. I have a job and responsibilities.

DST is a massive time sink as is. Skilltrees give you the power to speed up progress helping to relieve this problem abit. Now you want to add the time sink back? 

 

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Normal adults don't have a millions hours to play DST. Sometimes i want to play for an hour, rush a few bosses using all the power that insight points can bring then call it a day.

If i have spent the time to unlock insight points once I dont want to do it everytime for every character, if i want to start a new world or join a pub game. I have a job and responsibilities.

DST is a massive time sink as is. Skilltrees give you the power to speed up progress helping to relieve this problem abit. Now you want to add the time sink back? 

 

You dont need excuses to be a casual. I have full time work and gf, still i prefer the game to be good than to change into what it isnt.

There are other games to play when i dont feel like investing time. But if you expent time here saying non sense and trying to trigger people with your baits (something a normal adult wont do) you have time to play with a better insight system

 

[ADM]

I mostly agree. I like the skilltrees, but not how Insight works and I've been hoping we see changes to the system as character updates rolls instead of sticking with the first formula that came out.

Mainly, I'd want Insight to be a 'per world' thing like this yes, having a bit for starter should be nice, 5 feels a little too much but between 3 and this would be where I place it. But most importantly if we go this route, Insight available should be shared across characters. Main reason for this is I don't think anybody would like to redo the wait (or tasks, as suggested by the topic) simply because we changed of character on a world that is already pretty advanced (and where so much was done so there would be less ways to get insight, by suggested tasks), the amount of skills we have available should be the amount that reflects how far we've went globally.

For the affinity locks, I would also like it to be a per world unlock, but it would also mean that defeating the Fuelweaver or the Champion would become the same lock between all characters. I don't think who we killed them with matters so much, there isn't many characters that create a difference as for how and when these fight take place... so let us just redo this per world, with whoever we went with, and affinities are now available across the cast in this save.

Ideally, this is how I would like Insight to work.

[arubaro]

27 minutes ago, ADM said:

For the affinity locks, I would also like it to be a per world unlock

Totally. Makes no sense that woodie gets shadow inmunity or willow kamehamehas while wormwood needs brightshades

[Gashzer]

4 hours ago, arubaro said:

You dont need excuses to be a casual. I have full time work and gf, still i prefer the game to be good than to change into what it isnt.

There are other games to play when i dont feel like investing time. But if you expent time here saying non sense and trying to trigger people with your baits (something a normal adult wont do) you have time to play with a better insight system

 

Yeah an its far better to appeal to casuals than hard-core 10000 hour veterans who will find problems with everything. 

 

[Ohan]

26 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Totally. Makes no sense that woodie gets shadow inmunity or willow kamehamehas while wormwood needs brightshades

I agree but at the same time the lunar cultivator skills (carrat, lightbug and salad) are only good because u can use them in the early game. 

In this case i dont think its appropriate for them to require a CC kill in every world to unlock.

[ADM]

13 minutes ago, Ohan said:

I agree but at the same time the lunar cultivator skills (carrat, lightbug and salad) are only good because u can use them in the early game. 

In this case i dont think its appropriate for them to require a CC kill in every world to unlock.

If you ask me (not a Wormwood main in the slightest but I do like to play him quite a bit), the left branch of affinity skills should have a different lock than defeating the Celestial Champion. The Cultivator vs Guardian set have a massive difference of strength and the first doesn't deserve to be made available so late even under the current setting of Insight and affinity locks.

It could be changed to something as simple as visiting the Lunar Island and boom, would that be solved ? Otherwise I completely reckon liking the suggestion of per world unlock will be a constant juggle between the characters since their affinity skills aren't all equal if made available as fast as day 1 or much later. :/

 

Also, since it would mean Wormwood players would be quite tempted to change their whole skilltree after defeating the champion (or with any other characters frankly, I don't use always the same skill layout), we should also be getting a better way to reset the Insight spent than using the Celestial Portal only to reorder them. A bit like the idol I added in the Celestial Tools mod... a portable device to do just this would be a lot more convenient.

[Ohan]

42 minutes ago, ADM said:

It could be changed to something as simple as visiting the Lunar Island and boom, would that be solved ?

Yeah that could work! 
 

Something else i had in mind is to make the cultivator pets baseline (or “prototype” at celestial alter) and then replace the current 3 skills with upgrades for the pets. (Cheaper hp cost, longer duration, higher pet HP etc. Or unique specialization skill for each pet) these could then just be unlocked with CC.
 

As wormwood you can already have all alignment skills except 1.. which in my case ends up being the lightbugs. This always felt bad to me. Not even because lightbugs are so good that i still want them after i have CC crown but it just *feels* bad and random to me to not have it lol 

[RozeMeteor]

If anything change, i would love to actually have a option to configure or disable it.. I personally still waiting for a option to simply turn off skill trees and don't have to deal with the annoying eye hud at the top of the screen. Gotta agree with Gashzer as well, not everyone got so much time to sink or just prefer play diferent, besides powercreep would strike again and we know how it goes from there, my point is: Just give us options, don't take what a group of people say for rule since the playerbase is diverse.

[Evelo]

In my perfect world, first thing's first: Make it a progression on a per world basis, not a global account unlock. Then have it be from certain milestones, one may view these as achievements but there are more milestones or what have you than there are available insight points as well as have it be a tiered system. Could have some easy ones like "Place an Alchemy Engine", "Kill 5 spiders", "Transform a Pigman into a Werepig", enough easy ones to unlock 5 Insight after which the difficulty tier would increase requiring more in depth activities such as "survive a full year", "Activate the Archives", "Defeat the Shadow Pieces", etc. after those 5 unlock then the final tier which would be "Defeat AFW", "Defeat Celestial Champion", "Deal with a Rift", "Craft a Brightshade or Cloth item", etc.

Granted this wouldn't be good for everyone's playstyle but I feel this would be the healthiest for the game IF skill sets are to remain. (Which they will much to my dismay.) So having a way to just turn them off would be cool if they didn't impact characters in drastic ways (like Willow and Wigfrid). Because skill sets act as a Re-Refresh for certain characters it is unlikely to ever turn them off. Ideally the Skill sets would be removed with the most impactful and re-refreshy skills being made baseline to the character.

[SilverSpoon]

11 hours ago, arubaro said:

I have full time work and gf

(something a normal adult wont do)

Lmaooo well said by someone who is glued to this forum almost all day every day and "time here saying non sense and trying to trigger people with your baits".

Instead of wasting your time with us on the internet, spend your real life on your real girlfriend and your real job. Seriously.

[Well-met]

skill tree points should be per-server and not global

[This14Real]

Would it be any good if insight was gained through activities instead of the passing of time?
Like crafting your first Alchemy Engine, surviving your first Hound Wave, defeating your first Boss, completely losing Sanity and killing 5-10 Shadow Creatures, exploring the Caves... I feel like that would promote going after things to do while in game instead of the slog that it is right now.
To stretch it a little bit every character could have especific activities tied to them but that would be a lot of work for the devs…

[NoodlemanNed]

i like the early game variety that skill trees provide, having it reset every world would just make the machanic completely non existent in the earlygame as a whole. I understand people want to have goals spoon fed to them but this feels like the worst possible way to go about it. Balance wise none of the skill tree perks are excessively powerful even if you have them on day 1, so pushing those perks into the mid/late game pretty much just restricts it for no good reason. The devs also have mentioned that skill trees are meant to be accessible by newer players, as in the type of people who struggle to progress past the first winter.

I think theres lots to improve when it comes to skill trees but unlocking insight globally is probably the best choice they could have made with the system. It lets you have much more in depth characters regardless of what stage of the game youre at.

That being said, i think it would be nice if skill trees actually had enough good perks to really differentiate character builds, as right now there are only ever like 1 or 2 variations a player would pick if they arnt intentionally challenging themselves (at which point you probably wouldnt even use the skill tree to begin with).

[HowlVoid]

Wormwood is the most unbalanced when it comes to any system with only a few skill points. While not unusable he goes back to being the speedy, none-healing, living log Wilson he was before his skill tree. His main crafts also go back to being unintuitive. 

This is one option that should be a world toggle and never the default forced on anyone. I don't say this ever but use a mod if you have to. 

[cropo]

I say no; I don't want to be motivated to do things for skill point rewards. I want to be motivated to do things because I see a cool cave and think "oh nice, what's in there?"


Having some set goals or objectives to get skill points would be like getting a quest to go fetch 20 bear-butts in an MMO and I'd prefer the game did less of that than it has already started to do.

[hoxi]

On 9/30/2024 at 9:08 AM, ADM said:

Mainly, I'd want Insight to be a 'per world' thing like this yes, having a bit for starter should be nice, 5 feels a little too much but between 3 and this would be where I place it. But most importantly if we go this route, Insight available should be shared across characters. Main reason for this is I don't think anybody would like to redo the wait (or tasks, as suggested by the topic) simply because we changed of character on a world that is already pretty advanced (and where so much was done so there would be less ways to get insight, by suggested tasks), the amount of skills we have available should be the amount that reflects how far we've went globally.

For the affinity locks, I would also like it to be a per world unlock, but it would also mean that defeating the Fuelweaver or the Champion would become the same lock between all characters. I don't think who we killed them with matters so much, there isn't many characters that create a difference as for how and when these fight take place... so let us just redo this per world, with whoever we went with, and affinities are now available across the cast in this save.

Almost all of this is how I'd want insight to work. A per world thing and not per character, along with affinities requiring the respective bosses to be defeated to unlock alignment ones, which would sorta address something I personally don't like, which is to be able to have planar stuff or similar, before planar stuff is even a thing in the world (looking at you, planar entity Bernie that takes reduced damage).

All of this could be made into world settings too to make everyone happy and let people decide what they want in their server:

• Is insight enabled at all?
• Is insight unique to this world?
• Are alignment insights unlocked by default or after defeating the respective bosses? (could just be part of the first setting)
• Is insight shared across all characters?
• How much insight should new players start with?
• Should insight be time-based or unlock by finding/doing X things? Or both? (this is assuming more methods than time are added)

This could be in its own tab when creating a server (or in the main tab where you select amount of players, lobby privacy, etc), if it'd be too much to put in world settings or if it wouldn't make sense there.

I personally would like to start from 0 on each world, but I understand people that don't want to do that every single time, so please be polite about wanting different things. There's a possibility to have all of this. Given how skill trees are a significant part of the game, I do think there needs to be more time put into the system, and give players a bit more freedom with how they want to play with it, if at all.

Oh and lastly, an options setting to disable the notification unless you get new skill points would be nice, or even one to disable them entirely if so people choose.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, hoxi said:

I personally would like to start from 0 on each world

that'd make things like woodie's goose perks and hard wood hat, winona's shadow alignment, wigfrid's increased normal helm durability, increased inspiration from using battle spear, wurt's mosquito branch, wurt's shadow merms etc. worthless

1 hour ago, hoxi said:

along with affinities requiring the respective bosses to be defeated to unlock alignment ones

that'd make woodie's shadow affinity, wormwood's carrat and saladmander perks and wigfrid's affinities mostly worthless, getting shadow creatures immunity during were form after ending early game and killing the 1 hard boss that it's useful for fighting against even after the end of early game'd be comical

[hoxi]

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that'd make things like woodie's goose perks and hard wood hat, winona's shadow alignment, wigfrid's increased normal helm durability, increased inspiration from using battle spear, wurt's mosquito branch, wurt's shadow merms etc. worthless

that'd make woodie's shadow affinity, wormwood's left lunar affinity and wigfrid's affinities mostly worthless, getting shadow creatures immunity during were form after ending early game and killing the 1 hard boss that it's useful for fighting against even after the end of early game'd be comical

Yes? But it's why I mentioned leaving it up to the player to choose?

Edit: although the one thing I do agree that was mentioned a few times here is that maybe some affinity abilities don't make as much sense to be locked as others, like Wormwood's creature spawning ones. Still though, settings for everything else would only improve things for people. Not sure why you have to focus on an opinion/preference like that instead of the suggestion.

[grm9]

8 minutes ago, hoxi said:

Yes? But it's why I mentioned leaving it up to the player to choose?

why'd people choose making a lot of things worthless

[NoodlemanNed]

2 minutes ago, hoxi said:

Yes? But it's why I mentioned leaving it up to the player to choose?

but players can already choose how they want to allocate their insight, the one thing i think is an actual issue is the popup that comes up if you havnt allocated some points

[hoxi]

Just now, NoodlemanNed said:

but players can already choose how they want to allocate their insight, the one thing i think is an actual issue is the popup that comes up if you havnt allocated some points

It's more about needing to earn insight again or not, or how many points to start with, and if you can unlock affinities right away. As well if it persists through worlds.

I also mentioned a setting about the popup.

[NoodlemanNed]

19 minutes ago, hoxi said:

It's more about needing to earn insight again or not, or how many points to start with, and if you can unlock affinities right away.

you can already do this by restricting when you allocate your points. I find that its generally good practice to go try some self imposed restrictions when you want a game to be harder, instead of trying to get the developers to do that job for you.

the one part of this that actually is out of the player's control is the dumb popup in the top left corner which is why i think thats the only aspect of skill trees that really needs to have a setting for it. Some people might have problems with self imposed challenge but in the end its an issue that can be fixed through your own efforts, and in my opinion it should be done that way.