On Reviled Cheese and Player Freedom

[00petar00]

14 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

It's not up to you to decide who is negatively effected by cheese or who would care about improved mob habits I know many others who care about game amposhere would and even then we've already seen how cheese can conflict with game design quality of life for the average player with the bridge situation which be real only truely negatively effected veterans.

I don't see a good reason not to fix incorporate exploits into game mechanics so long as it doesn't trivialize content which seems to be where the devs also put their foots down which I think is a good stance. Remove exploits that break mechanics like boss fights and officiallize more creative strats i.e. bridges and ancient guardian. Basically what I'm saying is patching exploits should used as a map for how to improve the experience for the average player.

I will say I don't hate exploits but I'm more than willing to sacrifice them to improve the health of the game. Also even if noone says anything about then you never know when they'll eventually conflict with their future design and be removed without compensation because there wasn't enough discussion about why they were used.

I only want to bring up one thing that most players against exploits really don't like to hear. Bugs/exploits that need specific items or structures to be reproduced that won't ever happen in normal gameplay really doesn't affect players besides the waiting timer for boss to respawn and a lot of these players want to show off or are jealous because they aren't that good at speedrunning or killing bosses that someone using bug or exploit does it faster.

Bugs/exploits that everyone has no choice but to use should be fixed but every other instance where at least some players enjoy playing the game more using said bug/exploit it should stay in the game.

2 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

They're not doing it because they think it's fun. They're doing it to skip something they don't think is fun. Subtle difference.

You can't experience the gameplay you skipped playing, fun or not.

This is correct and there is nothing wrong with wanting to skip FW or any other boss that you don't find fun fighting the normal way.

No one yet has convinced me that players shouldn't be able to skip a fight in a sandbox game. Especially considering how some characters can dominate said fights so it is even more of a joke to say that every bug and exploit needs to be patched. 

[Anis5240]

9 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Especially considering how some characters can dominate said fights so it is even more of a joke

So real man. Like look how Maxwell's shadow prison trivialize all those "multiplayer-oriented" boss fights like Bee Queen, Dragonfly, and Fuelweaver. You're saying "oh that's part of his kit, that shouldn't count as cheese"? Well hell no. Blocking their minions from doing damage onto you COUNT AS CHEESE TOO.

[Gashzer]

18 hours ago, grm9 said:

that's why i said "figure out" instead of "ask some one or search for it", i meant figuring a cheese set up out on your own instead of looking for a thing that some one already figured out

This isn't the first time you or Guille seem to be glorifying "figuring out a cheese"

Lads you are not figuring out a cheese, you are figuring out how to break the game.

Its not something to be proud of, it's a clear sign that you guys are bored out of your minds playing DST that you have to break the game to have fun.

Some of us really don't want DST to be a game that's so easily broken by every Tom, **** and Harry that spends 5mins trying to find bugs then do.

For such an artistically beautiful game, DST doesn't suit the jank. It's a survival game, not a sandbox "let's go break everything" game like gmod or goat simulator.

[Anis5240]

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

not a sandbox

But it legit is?????? What even the hell you talk about? Do I have to put this again?

It's a survival AND SANDBOX GAME. YOU CAN GO ON FOR AGES WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING BIG LIKE FIGHTING BOSSES AND THE QUESTS.

Why, oh why do people kept hating on such "bugs"? It's inevitable to have. You know how game coding is.

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

you guys are bored out of your minds playing DST

Why yes, some people just want to watch everything fell to their knees without their actual input. And that's fine. It's just the same stuff you pull over and over with Winona's catapults, Wickerbottom's On Tentacles book, Maxwell's shadow prison, using bunnymen or merms, etc etc. So you want to hate onto those methods too? Go ahead, I know for sure people would hate you.

[Gashzer]

13 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

But it legit is?????? What even the hell you talk about? Do I have to put this again?

It's a survival AND SANDBOX GAME. YOU CAN GO ON FOR AGES WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING BIG LIKE FIGHTING BOSSES AND THE QUESTS.

Why, oh why do people kept hating on such "bugs"? It's inevitable to have. You know how game coding is.

Why yes, some people just want to watch everything fell to their knees without their actual input. And that's fine. It's just the same stuff you pull over and over with Winona's catapults, Wickerbottom's On Tentacles book, Maxwell's shadow prison, using bunnymen or merms, etc etc. So you want to hate onto those methods too? Go ahead, I know for sure people would hate you.

"User-defined tags" don't make me tag it as a hentai game cause I will 

DST is advertised as a survival game by Klei. That's what it is. Simple as that.

[grm9]

57 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

For such an artistically beautiful game, DST doesn't suit the jank. It's a survival game, not a sandbox "let's go break everything" game like gmod or goat simulator

i already said why cheeses don't affect that

57 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

This isn't the first time you or Guille seem to be glorifying "figuring out a cheese"

Lads you are not figuring out a cheese, you are figuring out how to break the game.

Its not something to be proud of, it's a clear sign that you guys are bored out of your minds playing DST that you have to break the game to have fun.

Some of us really don't want DST to be a game that's so easily broken by every Tom, **** and Harry that spends 5mins trying to find bugs then do

the rest's trolling, why's any of the things that you mentioned bad?

[Gashzer]

13 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i already said why cheeses don't affect that

the rest's trolling, why's any of the things that you mentioned bad?

Unfortunately you are just wrong grm9 

[DegenerateFurry]

8 hours ago, Maxposting said:

What even is your point by saying this? That games always have prominent bugs and shouldn't be fixed? 

It's that every game is, to some extent, buggy. Also, again, Minecraft (the best-selling game of all time) is extremely buggy. The guy I quoted said that only crazy people would play buggy games. Every gamer plays buggy games. Therefore, I'll see you in the asylum, because this guy's logic implies every gamer is crazy.

8 hours ago, Maxposting said:

I just have to ask, why did you make this thread if you never intended to listen others out in the first place?

I'm here to change minds, not to have my mind changed. I know I'm right - all I have to do is convince one person for this thread to be successful. 

8 hours ago, Maxposting said:

There wasn't much of a "collective stance" against exploits in the first place. Rather just separate people who agree or disagree on what should be done with the exploits. Clumping everyone (you disagree with) into a monolithic group doesn't serve anything, not even you. You yourself ended up perceiving others as a homogeneous hivemind of contradicting ideas, which never was the case.

There is a collective stance in this community: it's the overall, aggregate, general consensus about exploits, and that consensus is more sour towards them than the communities of other sandbox games. Terraria has sandbox elements despite being more boss-focused, but Terraria players don't whine anywhere near as much about progression-shattering stuff like hoiks as DST players complain about little things like statue farms. Hell, when the Calamity mod devs go out of their way to try to make their bosses impossible to fight any way other than their intended methods, they get criticized and mocked for it, and rightfully so.
Minecraft has an entire large community of players who build complicated contraptions that often feature bugs and exploits as a core part of their functionality, but that's just accepted and is often encouraged by Minecraft players, YouTubers, and even developers - Mojang recently hired a prominent figure in the redstone community.

The point of this thread is to remind players of the fact that we don't have to look at bugs, exploits, or "cheese" as being the Devil's work like some of them seem to have convinced themselves. The ones people typically use to "cheese" things are bugs that you generally have to go out of your way to experience, and that results in a similar alternate playstyle to Minecraft's redstone: you set up complex arrangements of often unconventional gameplay elements so that you can do things differently than you'd normally have to. People who play the normal way, on the other hand, do not experience these bugs unless they're playing with someone who's making them happen intentionally - that means they should be left in, because the only people who experience them are, in almost all cases, the people who have fun in so doing.

Even the argument that someone could cheese a boss before someone could fight it normally is a very poor one.
Firstly, a Wolfgang can slay any boss before any other character can (barring some possible exceptions like Wendy's Bee Queen matchup) with the same amount of prep time due to the simple fact that he has doubled damage for close to free. This is somehow acceptable to people who think cheese isn't even though Wolfgang's pretty blatantly a built-in easy mode to the game (and, yes, Wolfgang is explicitly easy mode - he was since the implementation of character powers in original DS, and Klei got rid of the increase in difficulty they initially gave him in DST). 
Second, cheesing bosses will usually take more prep time than doing them normally, so if you're failing to kill Fuelweaver before the guy who spent the last two seasons gathering stone for pillars and catapults, that's a skill issue on your part.
Finally, you can just not play with people who do that. 

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

"User-defined tags" don't make me tag it as a hentai game cause I will 

DST is advertised as a survival game by Klei. That's what it is. Simple as that.

Pure survival games don't have megabasing as a dev-supported feature and I don't know why you're pretending this obvious sandbox game isn't obviously a sandbox game.

[RozeMeteor]

4 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I'm here to change minds, not to have my mind changed. I know I'm right

This tell all it has to about this thread.. Trying ''educate others'' ain't gonna result in anything substantial, if others don't want hear they won't, and it will only serve to cause discord. Anyone know very well that people only hear what they want to, very few actually listen no matter their opnion on the subject is. My point is, anyone pushing this further just want watch the forums burn or scratch their ego, your point was made, it's on them if they will acept or not.

[Mike23Ua]

Because it’s not meant to “BE” a Sandbox game? Is that a good enough reason for you??? It’s advertised and sold as and I quote “An Uncompromising Survival Game.”

And Sandbox should NEVER take priority over that but Welp….. skins sale better than cool large DLC expansions would I guess.. 

To avoid going into a long highly off-topic rant, people buy DLCs for games like Dead Cells because they enjoy the actual challenges of the game and want more of that (DLCs often add more difficulty or just new levels in general) but in most cases.. rarely ever does any survival game ditch adding survival content in favor of pretty base skins.

I really do not think we should be using “bruh it’s open sandbox” as an excuse to allow bugs and glitches that lessen or remove the games survival aspects (Aka the intended difficulty) to linger.

[DegenerateFurry]

7 minutes ago, RozeMeteor said:

This tell all it has to about this thread.. Trying ''educate others'' ain't gonna result in anything substantial, if others don't want hear they won't, and it will only serve to cause discord. Anyone know very well that people only hear what they want to, very few actually listen no matter their opnion on the subject is. My point is, anyone pushing this further just want watch the forums burn or scratch their ego, your point was made, it's on them if they will acept or not.

I'd say persuade, not "educate". I know plenty of people will stick to what side they're already on, but not everyone will. Honestly, I'm interested in what the devs would think if they end up reading any of this - but I'm just as interested in getting other people to realize that this alternate playstyle that's so unjustly demonized is one that plenty enjoy and plenty more could enjoy. 

[Anis5240]

4 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I'm just as interested in getting other people to realize that this alternate playstyle that's so unjustly demonized is one that plenty enjoy and plenty more could enjoy. 

As I said many times, why the hell people have to stifle creativity? Players shouldn't have just one way to do things or kill mobs in this game. Streamlined ways to fight is soooooooo boring and you "cheese haters" can't convince me otherwise. You all using mods also count as cheese, especially the most well-known Combined Status mod.

It's your damn world to play and no one, and I MEAN NO ONE, will ever say stupid stuff about what you did in the game.

[Gashzer]

49 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Pure survival games don't have megabasing as a dev-supported feature and I don't know why you're pretending this obvious sandbox game isn't obviously a sandbox game.

Base building isn't a sandbox only thing.

More accurately its an open world survival crafting game, like 7 days to die and the forest. They arnt sandbox games and neither is DST.

Minecraft isn't a sandbox game either when playing on a survival world. It only is when you play its creative mode.

Creative mode is the key difference between a "sandbox" game like gmod/minecraft and a survival game with basebuilding elements like DST.

Until DST gets a official creative mode that isn't developer console commands (console players can't access it), it's not a sandbox game.

And the only reason why people call DST a sandbox game is because too many dumb people are getting the definition wrong and dont know the original meaning of what a sandbox game is, so even Google is getting it wrong.

Young people these days ruining definitions! Get off my lawn ye wee hures!

So yeah DegenerateFurry, you had my back alot on the forums bro but sadly you are wrong here, sorry 

Edit: apparently 7 days to die does in fact have a creative mode, only helps to reinforce that DST is not a sandbox, doesn't even have a basic creative mode like other "sandbox" survival games have lol

Edit x2: so does the forest hahahaha DST why don't you have a creative mode yet? Sandbox my ass.

[RozeMeteor]

1 minute ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I'd say persuade, not "educate". I know plenty of people will stick to what side they're already on, but not everyone will. Honestly, I'm interested in what the devs would think if they end up reading any of this - but I'm just as interested in getting other people to realize that this alternate playstyle that's so unjustly demonized is one that plenty enjoy and plenty more could enjoy. 

Well i gotta agree with you on that one devs opnion would be interesting to see, i myself are not in favor of those ''alternate ways'' using pillars and such BUT i respect those who do it, it's that thing of if you don't like just don't use, it's not harming you in any matter but that's where come another line, what if toadstol could be hk by a bridge breaking ? would be that another method or simply a bug ? cuz on my eyes that one wouldn't be diferent from cheating, still i can understand those who use because they don't want farm it cuz lack of time, resources or any other reason, it's a offline game for most.. i like to see it as if was monster hunter in a way, for example i like to fight normally any monster but farming some of the bigger ones in old games takes way too much time for 1% drop rates in certain needed materials, so i just use flash pods and other things like the heroics to bring those down faster, and in public rooms i only use those methods if the person tells me they want do it faster as well.

[DegenerateFurry]

17 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

As I said many times, why the hell people have to stifle creativity? Players shouldn't have just one way to do things or kill mobs in this game. Streamlined ways to fight is soooooooo boring and you "cheese haters" can't convince me otherwise. You all using mods also count as cheese, especially the most well-known Combined Status mod.

It's your damn world to play and no one, and I MEAN NO ONE, will ever say stupid stuff about what you did in the game.

I dunno why you're saying I'm a "cheese hater" given that I made this thread to defend cheese and have been doing so relentlessly this whole time.

[Gashzer]

35 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

As I said many times, why the hell people have to stifle creativity? Players shouldn't have just one way to do things or kill mobs in this game. Streamlined ways to fight is soooooooo boring and you "cheese haters" can't convince me otherwise. You all using mods also count as cheese, especially the most well-known Combined Status mod.

It's your damn world to play and no one, and I MEAN NO ONE, will ever say stupid stuff about what you did in the game.

Klei is bug fixing major oldschool bugs for the first time ever since DST was released.

Its a dawn of a new day, a less buggy day!

All seriousness, good job klei. I'll keep buying skins packs if you keep polishing DST.

Cant wait for the AFW and AFW questline QOL and tweaks.

 

[Anis5240]

21 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I'm a "cheese hater"

well it's more referring to those who hate cheese, sorry if that ain't clear

[DegenerateFurry]

Just now, Anis5240 said:

well it's more referring to those who hate cheese, sorry if that ain't clear

Oh, okay. 

 

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Klei is bug fixing major oldschool bugs for the first time ever since DST was released.

Its a dawn of a new day, a less buggy day!

All seriousness, good job klei. I'll keep buying skins packs if you keep polishing DST.

Cant wait for the AFW and AFW questline QOL and tweaks.

 

It kind of saddens me that you've taken this hardline stance against people playing the game in a way you don't want them to, Gashzer, when you have pretty reasonable views about Fuelweaver and what Klei could do to improve it. I find myself disagreeing with you more on this issue than I ever do on anything else. 

[Echsrick]

"just dont use cheese" is a vallid counter, just dont use cheese if you dont like it and let people that dont like to deal with it the "normal way" what ever that means allow to use cheese

[Maxposting]

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Therefore, I'll see you in the asylum, because this guy's logic implies every gamer is crazy.

You only ended up entertaining disingenuous logic for little reason than to "prove you're right" and you went straight to the very unhealthy idea that people should be in asylums just to prove he's wrong. This is just as plainly wrong as he is to call people "not sane".

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I'm here to change minds, not to have my mind changed. I know I'm right

I see a very big flaw in this and I just don't know how to express it.

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

There is a collective stance in this community: it's the overall, aggregate, general consensus about exploits, and that consensus is more sour towards them than the communities of other sandbox games. Terraria has sandbox elements despite being more boss-focused, but Terraria players don't whine anywhere near as much about progression-shattering stuff like hoiks as DST players complain about little things like statue farms. 

Again, I believe you conflate several groups of people with separate ideas together. I myself haven't seen (or must have overlooked) people unhappy about farms using pathfinding bugs, as they are generally just not seen as that much big of a issue (a proper exploit) as say voidwalking or cheap boss exploits without counter-mechanics. I'm specifically pointing towards the dragonfly wall exploit, which was nerfed (a very long time ago), where now lavae die after a set time and cause dragonfly to enrage, encouraging out-of-the-box (pun unintended) thinking to deal with lavae and dragonfly's enrage mechanics while still conserving an actual fight. This is juxtaposed by actual costly setups that allow farming mob drops (including bosses) without much of a fight.

I myself do not like the Shadow Chesspiece exploit, as I see it too cheap for the end rewards. I want a way to have the third tier Chesspiece be further boosted for extra atrium drops while still being farmable when the exploit is inevitably fixed. (This is not mentioning the already existing farming method that involves cycling through the third tier Chesspieces in a extended fight as they can summon extras after the new moon ends.)

[DegenerateFurry]

26 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

You only ended up entertaining disingenuous logic for little reason than to "prove you're right" and you went straight to the very unhealthy idea that people should be in asylums just to prove he's wrong. This is just as plainly wrong as he is to call people "not sane".

It's called a joke? I made fun of something laughable. Don't get your undergarments in a twist over it. 

[Maxposting]

9 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

It's called a joke? I made fun of something laughable. Don't get your undergarments in a twist over it. 

Could you explain what the joke is then? To me it looks like a really bad joke if it's meant to be one.

[DegenerateFurry]

40 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

Could you explain what the joke is then? To me it looks like a really bad joke if it's meant to be one.

The joke is that he thinks that only an insane gamer would play a buggy game, and since all games are buggy to some degree and even some extremely popular ones are very buggy, we are all insane (as we are all gamers). So, I was using a joke to highlight the ridiculousness of his statement ("see you all in the asylum next week"). Y'know, because asylums were historically used to contain insane people, which he's implied we all are.

[Maxil20]

1 hour ago, Maxposting said:

I myself do not like the Shadow Chesspiece exploit, as I see it too cheap for the end rewards. I want a way to have the third tier Chesspiece be further boosted for extra atrium drops while still being farmable when the exploit is inevitably fixed. (This is not mentioning the already existing farming method that involves cycling through the third tier Chesspieces in a extended fight as they can summon extras after the new moon ends.)

I think my biggest issue with the shadow pieces is just the new moon restriction. It kinda sucks that because of the fact it has to be a new moon to summon them, you are forced to pretty much drop what you are doing and go out of your way to summon the bosses and get an aitrium or two with the “usual” methods. The only exception is if you start the fight after killing CC as that always forces a new moon, which I feel isn’t really saying much…?

It’s something I wish wasn’t nearly as required for the event. I dislike full moons for a similar reason, but at least those have ways you can forcibly summon it even if you also need to go out of your way to do so.

[Maxposting]

18 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Y'know, because asylums were historically used to contain insane people, which he's implied we all are.

Spoiler

In case you didn't know, asylums still are very often a place of abuse to this day. For me this is rather a distasteful joke to make about this specifically. I wanted to call him out on what he said but simply didn't bother until this happened. Simply saying that was an ad hominem, still dismissing his core statement, would have been better.

Anyways let's just... get back to the topic I guess.

9 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

It’s something I wish wasn’t nearly as required for the event. I dislike full moons for a similar reason, but at least those have ways you can forcibly summon it even if you also need to go out of your way to do so.

It might help if players could summon the chesspieces underground? Potentially let them be all terror-y when a rift is open?