Hardmode is not the way to go.

[Theukon-dos]

On 7/6/2024 at 2:42 PM, abrocator said:

I don’t understand the veteran players that simultaneously give off the vibe that they mastered the game six years ago while also expecting the game to be as challenging as before they mastered it. How does that make sense? Also bonus points for sarcastically mentioning the “uncompromising survival” slogan as if every word ever said should be taken literally.

Did this game ever exist? The one where a veteran player could be continually challenged by the survival aspect? Not in DS, and also not in DST. That was never the case.

There’s a limit (due to the control scheme and the lowest common denominator, namely console) to how mechanically complex this game can be, even though some players play in another league even compared to other veterans. But in the end it’s mostly about knowledge and experience and less about raw execution.

As far as the “content” goes, they keep adding more and more endgame stuff. And the veterans that are into these two things seem to be fine with it:

1. Base building
2. Boss rushing

Because there’s more to do. The first group for the rewards (like those new treasure chest seeds) and the second group for the new bosses.

I don't think any "veteran" player is expecting the game to perpetually be as challenging to them now as it was 10 years ago. Want, maybe. But a game being defined by it's difficulty is ultimately just as defined by conquering that difficulty. Even games like Dark Souls or Getting Over It can be understood and mastered to the point where they're about as challenging as a part game.

The problem is that this is not what's happening. If the game's difficulty was perpetual and players simply "Got good" as one might say, I doubt anyone would be complaining. But instead, the game has been openly and willingly; nay; enthusiastically been made easier. The difficulty has not been conqured by players. It has been chipped and whittled down by the developers into a husk of itself. If it still exists at all. Food, health, and sanity have been made easier to manage. There are more tools than ever before to deal with the obsticals presented to the player. And the characters had been made so, so much more powerful with the refreshes. And yet Klei's response upon seeing this was to make them even stronger thanks to skill trees. Must I explain the difference between a boss being made easy due to having fought against it hundreds of times, and a boss being made easy because you spawned in as the character who starts with the Ass Blaster 9001(Patent Pending)?

 

You bemoan veterans for referencing the slogan "Uncompromising Survival Game" and treating it literally. But you said it yourself, that wasn't just a blurb, it was the game's slogan. That's how it was marketed. If you heard about Don't Starve, it was as "Don't Starve, the Uncompromising Survival Game". And that's also why you bought into it.

You may have noticed that phrases along the line of "it helps new players" can often times strike a nerve so to speak. And that's because Don't Starve was specifically sold as a game that wouldn't help new players. The fact that the game has historically been so hard to get into was never a flaw or an oversight that never got fixed. It was the point. It was the appeal. Don't Starve was made as a game for people who didn't want help.

And yeah, obviously that's an experience you can only have once. I'll always look fondly back on when I was still a fresh face and learning the ropes. But all these changes mean now it's an experience that new players can't get. Do you think that wanting hard games was a product of the 2010s that has fallen out of style? That a desire for challenge only comes with experience? No, obviously not. A game that was overtly hostile to new players still appealed to those new players.

Maybe you're right. Maybe the ideal of Don't Starve never existed. Just a holy grail that we can never touch. But even if that is the case, if that ideal was wrong. If nobody wanted that idea? We wouldn't have Don't Starve Together.

[abrocator]

16 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

The problem is that this is not what's happening. If the game's difficulty was perpetual and players simply "Got good" as one might say, I doubt anyone would be complaining. But instead, the game has been openly and willingly; nay; enthusiastically been made easier. The difficulty has not been conqured by players. It has been chipped and whittled down by the developers into a husk of itself. If it still exists at all. Food, health, and sanity have been made easier to manage. There are more tools than ever before to deal with the obsticals presented to the player.

This is very general. What I often see accompanied by this is something that a veteran didn’t have a problem with coupled with a new thing, like hunger and stone fruit. And I mean, I don’t think people have had a problem with hunger in itself since they learned to transplant berry bushes in DS in 2013.

(Hunger matters to some, it is a challenge to some. But if you managed to transplant stone fruit bushes in the first autumn you ain’t got such problems.)

I personally think that rushing Lunar Island is too easy considering what you get out of it. But I don’t see how it is that relevant outside of Wurt players or something niche like that. And I don’t see the connection to any concrete demographic since ideas like “just look for flat edges on the world generation” is not something that people just intuit.

Quote

And the characters had been made so, so much more powerful with the refreshes. And yet Klei's response upon seeing this was to make them even stronger thanks to skill trees. Must I explain the difference between a boss being made easy due to having fought against it hundreds of times, and a boss being made easy because you spawned in as the character who starts with the Ass Blaster 9001(Patent Pending)?

I see and agree with this point. In particular (just to be concrete) with Woodie you can delete a lot of his downsides through the skill tree.

Quote

You bemoan veterans for referencing the slogan "Uncompromising Survival Game" and treating it literally. But you said it yourself, that wasn't just a blurb, it was the game's slogan. That's how it was marketed. If you heard about Don't Starve, it was as "Don't Starve, the Uncompromising Survival Game". And that's also why you bought into it.

lol. The reply here is just to read back what the slogan says. Very literal-style.

It’s been eleven years. The original DS was also marketed as an anti-social game. (Not in the literal violent/law-breaking anti-social sense, in the illiterate alone sense.) DST clearly sold DS out.

Personally I got DS because I saw someone play it on YouTube.

Quote

You may have noticed that phrases along the line of "it helps new players" can often times strike a nerve so to speak. And that's because Don't Starve was specifically sold as a game that wouldn't help new players. The fact that the game has historically been so hard to get into was never a flaw or an oversight that never got fixed. It was the point. It was the appeal. Don't Starve was made as a game for people who didn't want help.

Yeah sure I remember meeting Deerclops for the first time (by chance I didn’t see him in the YouTube let’s play) in DS and dying in a lot of different/surprising ways. That’s for sure not how I’ve played DST for most of my time in it.

And I don’t even know how you could play DST blind or practically so and still experience 90% of the content as they say. Frankly the outright hidden quests and goals as well as the sometimes very cryptic item descriptions is just a parody of itself at this point; ironically it only works because the developers know that the community at large will figure it out the specfics in fifteen minutes after launch, either from testing in a heavily modded sandbox world or by reading Lua.

Or maybe I’m totally wrong and playing this game blind (the whole game, not just “I survived a year in…”) is viable. It’s not like I’ve honestly tried so what do I know.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Maxil20 said:

I do feel there us a solid middle ground between megabasers/ones that enjoy the game for farming/survival. Its why I myself like changes to the world like acid rain/hail which do try to change things up a bit (hail hopefully more so soon). These shake up the gameplay in a way I like (changing up survival in ways that don’t involve base destruction) and would personally like to see explored more. Heck, I would be down if the umbralla wasn’t the ultimate counter to acid rain infusions like it currently is. I like how unique they can be and its a shame it instantly goes away when you pop an umbralla up, and I would love if it persisted under the umbralla dome.

Honestly I completely agree here I want more content like this as well but I'm also not against base destruction though as that's always been the risk of failing the survival aspect of the game however I am completely against unfair base destruction as aside from a smaller side of the community everyone bases to some extent and we don't want to feel like protecting it is hopeless.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Ahh but… Can we even call the content Klei has been putting out for DST lately as being “End Game”?

Look I’m no game designer but to me it makes no Gosh Darn Sense why they’d take all the freaking time that they have to update characters with Reworks and Re-Reworks, and Now Skill Tree Reworks if they plan for this to be the “End Game.”

Its illogical, it’s stupid.. it’s baffling and uncanny.

Thats like playing a shooter where for 98% of the game you run around with hand to hand Melee and then only for the last 2% of the game do you get to use a gun.

Look bottom line is that if Willow and Winona can have lunar or shadow aligned Bernie and Catapults on DAY ONE as soon as they spawn out of the florid portal, then maybe Klei needs to rethink how late into the game the content that’s actually designed to interact with that is introduced to the player?

Otherwise: See above 2% Shooter game reference.

I mean I get where your coming from but before they could move "end game" content to the early game they'd have to find a way to adapt a new player to a more experienced one faster otherwise moving that content to the early game would just end in frustration no matter how you slice it.

[abrocator]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Yes, but even if those plants are now purely just decorations, the mobs and the weather in the area can not spread or be contaminated, which means… you now can do just like every other update and force the new content to spawn exactly where you want it to spawn.

(I’ve actually seen people throwing down signs to trick the game into registering the area as a “Base” so they can force Lunar Rifts to open in a specific area they want the rift to spawn in)

I shouldn’t have to explain how that goes against the very nature of “Uncompromising Survival Game.”

Hmm no you can’t. I get that you are still on this “disease” thing that you invented here so I can’t exactly tell you how things work (since you invented it), but a purely decorative plant cannot shield other things from a disease or whatever.

Purely decoration. Doesn’t help the survival of anything. I mean you’re getting upset that the game allows you to decorate without tearing it down when that decoration won’t help you keep from starving or freezing to death. I don’t get it.

[00petar00]

On 7/8/2024 at 6:53 AM, Mysterious box said:

Bringing in new players is a good thing but retaining them is the important part and simply making the game easier doesn't always lead to that end result and can be even worse if it doesn't retain players while bleeding older established players a balance is still needed.

It will always be the case that only a small number of players are retained over a long period of time, the point is for developers to make money so as long as they can sell the game without big discount and maybe skins it is still very good.

On 7/8/2024 at 6:53 AM, Mysterious box said:

I disagree as the way they're making the game easier isn't in a way that makes it easier to grasp the fundamentals which is where a lot of newer players tend to get frustrated.

Maybe but in that case they can just make the game easier from the ground up and basically change the fundamentals. I don't understand why we need booster shots when someone that keeps dying gets punished too much but experienced players won't have this issue. There's the same problem with many things that don't make much sense like why does warrior spider drop the same loot as normal spiders that are easy to kill? Why is trap so terrible that rabbits need to walk perfectly into it to get caught? So many terrible crockpot recipes that don't make any sense and player isn't taught at all and recipes are not it because they can often be quite random and make no sense by suggesting the hardest to get ingredients when it can be done much cheaper.

There are so many ways to make the game easier that will help new players.

On 7/8/2024 at 6:53 AM, Mysterious box said:

Dst gives you plenty of tools in order to prevent you from mass loss situations it just doesn't tell you they exist which kind of loops back around to the point I'm making skill trees make players more powerful but not more knowledgeable about what they can do and how to increase their odds of survival power is fun but power alone isn't going to make you better at the end of the day it's just fun.

Every new player will lose world at least 4-5 times before they can survive winter, first time everyone dies to darkness because they don't know they need light and there is so many dangers that it is easy to waste 5-10 hours until you can survive in autumn. DST is hard in a very bad way because it doesn't tell you what to do and what is efficient so this is very frustrating for new players

On 7/8/2024 at 6:53 AM, Mysterious box said:

Here's the thing there are players with 1000+ hours who still fail be able to handle bosses or grasp mechanics this isn't exclusively a new player problem.

That basically reinforces what I have been saying that boss fights are too punishing and require too much prep time for a newer player. While we can kill bosses by kiting most new players will only do more harm kiting compared to just tanking it and they still try to kite so they need more armor and healing compared to someone purely tanking the boss.

On 7/8/2024 at 7:51 AM, grm9 said:

we literally got the easy mode preset

A lot of people don't know what to expect from the game and will usually go with default also they may be stubborn or have pride and don't want to choose the easy mode. Default preset should be made easier and hardcore or whatever you want to call it should be for players with 1000-2000+ hours players.

On 7/8/2024 at 7:51 AM, grm9 said:

making the fight x2 faster isn't bypassing the fight nor using strats for a boss that you're supposed to use strats for e.g. BQ, since the fun part about it's figuring out strats for it instead of fighting

Strats or fun that you see in boss fights won't be seen by players that can barely survive and they won't be fighting BQ or even if they do it is going to result in their death and loss of the world.

On 7/8/2024 at 7:51 AM, grm9 said:

you can still kill misery toad with a ham bat, normal axes and a torch, that just requires a lot of time

That doesn't make the fight any more fun and I've had situations where it started raining and I got wet and started freezing and worms spawned when I was fighting misery toadstool.

On 7/8/2024 at 7:51 AM, grm9 said:

what's this even supposed to mean? the sentence doesn't make sense, someone not liking something hard because it's optional? why?

I could've been more clear, what I am trying to say is that there were quite a few discussions where "uncompromising" hardcore players say that difficulty with bosses doesn't translate to what they want with the game. They want more sesonal and survival challenges that are forced upon you and no matter how difficult a boss is if you aren't forced to interact with it they only see it as optional difficulty.

On 7/8/2024 at 11:30 AM, abrocator said:

Huh? Shouldn’t you both “talk for yourself” i.e. admit that there are multiple ways to play the game and that one way is not better for whatever reason (intended by design or something)?

I agree with you that there isn't a specific playstyle that is superior but we can use the argument that majority of the players are casuals and that devs will make more money which is fair. I don't see why we need DST to be a hardcore game just for the enjoyment of a much smaller population of players. DST has been getting more and more popular over the years as game has gotten easier.

19 hours ago, Maxil20 said:

The reason people were unhappy about content like the brightshades being the most invasive thing of all time is because people who play for the Epic and Hard challenge tm will play maybe 1-2 hours after they get all the content and then leave, which then proceeds to screw every single other player who plays well past that point.

You nailed it here, players that don't mind brightshades have never had multiple 2000+ day worlds and they don't find them annoying since by the time they activate rifts they have killed most bosses and are about to quit but they go to forums and argue brightshades are a good addition to the game in their current state.

19 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I wish people would stop using this argument how many people do you guys really think just reaches the end game and just abandons the world immediately after to start fresh it feels like saying once you finish a mega base you delete your world that's just always been baffling logic to me.

Most survival only focused players that will notice how the game becomes easier and easier as you kill more bosses and obtain more really good loot like bundling wrap, furnace, polar bearger bin and have knobby trees covering their surface base. I don't see how game can be fun to them when they can counter all of the dangers over time and often complain on the forums how everything can be countered.

19 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean that wasn't just a megabase consideration having no safe zones in the caves caused multiple issues which is why everyone was on board for it in the first place even I pitched the same idea around that time. You'll even notice if you look back to early lunar rift basically no one was split on the idea that lunar rifts could destroy your base by opening on top of it with no counter play went over very poorly with next to no way of defending it. That being said I'll say what I always say protecting your base is part of survival and it's meaningless if the game completely removes the option to and just about anyone should agree on that front at least.

There were a lot more people wanting uncontrolled base destruction when I expected that there would be none, I don't know how active you were at that time but there were threads made to support it even though rifts wouldn't affect most survival only players in the long term as they will quit before it becomes an issue.

18 hours ago, Maxil20 said:

I do feel there us a solid middle ground between megabasers/ones that enjoy the game for farming/survival. Its why I myself like changes to the world like acid rain/hail which do try to change things up a bit (hail hopefully more so soon). These shake up the gameplay in a way I like (changing up survival in ways that don’t involve base destruction) and would personally like to see explored more. Heck, I would be down if the umbralla wasn’t the ultimate counter to acid rain infusions like it currently is. I like how unique they can be and its a shame it instantly goes away when you pop an umbralla up, and I would love if it persisted under the umbralla dome.

It is mostly not possible because survival players can easily ignore most additions made to suit megabasers and the only part that affects them is base destruction and how difficult survival part of the game should be that we are often very against having more things added that will make it annoying after thousands of game days.

The only solution is to have a different preset like terraria difficulty settings but I don't know If klei wants to do this as they would be required to basically spend a lot of time developing another mode because current presets are very simple and it would need to be on another level. 

I am mostly a megabaser but I would still play different difficulty if it was like Terraria because my brain works that way because I wouldn't feel great about missing on cool new items that are specific to that difficulty. So this could be the solution for hardcore players as base game is only bound to get easier and unless this happens they will either quit or accept it.

[grm9]

11 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Strats or fun that you see in boss fights won't be seen by players that can barely survive and they won't be fighting BQ or even if they do it is going to result in their death and loss of the world

they already added relaxed mode so that isn't an issue

11 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I could've been more clear, what I am trying to say is that there were quite a few discussions where "uncompromising" hardcore players say that difficulty with bosses doesn't translate to what they want with the game. They want more sesonal and survival challenges that are forced upon you and no matter how difficult a boss is if you aren't forced to interact with it they only see it as optional difficulty

yeah they probably wouldn't make the game harder by default since game's as hard for newbies as it was so it'd be better to add optional stuff instead e.g. bosses and rifts stuff, complaining about hard stuff being optional's pointless because you can just force yourself to do that whenever you think that you should instead of asking the devs to force everyone to play the way you want to play

[Mike23Ua]

17 hours ago, abrocator said:

Hmm no you can’t. I get that you are still on this “disease” thing that you invented here so I can’t exactly tell you how things work (since you invented it), but a purely decorative plant cannot shield other things from a disease or whatever.

Purely decoration. Doesn’t help the survival of anything. I mean you’re getting upset that the game allows you to decorate without tearing it down when that decoration won’t help you keep from starving or freezing to death. I don’t get it.

Starving to Death & Freezing to Death are both problems that have been in the game since like 2013 and both of these issues have been significantly and I strongly mean SIGNIFICANTLY Lessened when Klei adds new mobs, new food sources or powerful as Frick Character Perks like Willows 2 day lasting Fire Mage spell (also provides heat) or Winona’s Heated Spotlight (that now can be fueled on nightmare fuel without burning through Nitre)

I feel like I’m arguing with children over DST getting easier when the proof is literally staring us in the face.

I also don’t see the current form of “Lunar Hail” as being any different from “Cave Earthquakes” so no it’s not a new weather Effect, it’s something I’ve been dealing with when in caves I now have to equally deal with on the surface, but it’s not as interesting as like say for example: Making Winters much colder so that you actually NEED more than just a thermal stone to survive, Impairing the players vision with brutal snow storms that slow movement speed without snow suits or something to that effect.

The suggestion I made for “Disease 2.0” was so that Overtime Biomes & Mobs can become contaminated, meaning that- A diseased rabbit would drop a morsel that’s spoiling faster or maybe even poisoned, chopping a diseased tree could yield less resources than chopping a healthy one, if you let disease over-take the area then the game spawns in a poisonous air toxin (Hamlets poison biomes requiring gas masks to travel through)

But if you allow players to “Spritz” things and turn them into purely decoration, then that disease can not spread.. the mobs that interact with diseased plants (berry bushes, trees etc..) can’t contaminate the purely decorative trees- And the disease itself is immediately stopped before it even has a chance to become a survival threat to you.

it’s like in real life if you know a massive wildfire is headed your way, if you dig a huge trench and fill it with water and remove anything the fire can spread to, it’ll snub out at the trench.

 

[grm9]

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But if you allow players to “Spritz” things and turn them into purely decoration, then that disease can not spread.. the mobs that interact with diseased plants (berry bushes, trees etc..) can’t contaminate the purely decorative trees- And the disease itself is immediately stopped before it even has a chance to become a survival threat to you

you can also just remove whatever you would've used that on since that only requires twigs and flint instead of killing a boss and spending wax

[00petar00]

27 minutes ago, grm9 said:

they already added relaxed mode so that isn't an issue

99%+ of the players are never going to use relaxed mode, it doesn't matter if they are new or not but people have pride and ego that is understandable for anyone playing games not wanting to choose easier difficulty compared to default.

29 minutes ago, grm9 said:

yeah they probably wouldn't make the game harder by default since game's as hard for newbies as it was so it'd be better to add optional stuff instead e.g. bosses and rifts stuff, complaining about hard stuff being optional's pointless because you can just force yourself to do that whenever you think that you should instead of asking the devs to force everyone to play the way you want to play

Maybe to you but a lot of survival/hardcore players want to force difficulty down everyone's throats so that it is unavoidable. Anything that is optional they don't see as game being difficult.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, 00petar00 said:

99%+ of the players are never going to use relaxed mode, it doesn't matter if they are new or not but people have pride and ego that is understandable for anyone playing games not wanting to choose easier difficulty compared to default

i doubt that and that's an issue with people, complaining about the game being too hard even though you got an option to make it easier doesn't make sense

2 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Maybe to you but a lot of survival/hardcore players want to force difficulty down everyone's throats so that it is unavoidable. Anything that is optional they don't see as game being difficult

that doesn't make sense

[00petar00]

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i doubt that and that's an issue with people, complaining about the game being too hard even though you got an option to make it easier doesn't make sense

Why is this strange? I am one of these people that won't ever choose the easiest difficulty in the game. This might be my pride or expectations that I have of the game and wanting to play it for longer also it is worth mentioning that a new player can't gauge the difficulty that will suit them.

7 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that doesn't make sense

Explain that to "uncompromising" survival players, there's a reason a lot of people make fun of them for bringing the word uncompromising that was used in description of DST steam page when they make arguments as to why DST should follow that development direction.

[grm9]

13 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Why is this strange? I am one of these people that won't ever choose the easiest difficulty in the game

what'll you do if it'll end up being too hard for you? are you going to complain and ask to make default difficulty easier to force everyone that played on default difficulty to play on easy difficulty because you didn't want to play on easy difficulty?

13 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

This might be my pride

that's an issue with you, not the game

13 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

a new player can't gauge the difficulty that will suit them

they can try and change it if they won't like it on difficulty that they were playing on

[Mike23Ua]

17 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

99%+ of the players are never going to use relaxed mode, it doesn't matter if they are new or not but people have pride and ego that is understandable for anyone playing games not wanting to choose easier difficulty compared to default.

Maybe to you but a lot of survival/hardcore players want to force difficulty down everyone's throats so that it is unavoidable. Anything that is optional they don't see as game being difficult.

Speak for yourself, there are some very hard games that I’ve only ever been able to actually beat on the easiest difficulty available.

And even games like Multiversus, there is a MASSIVE Difference between rifts on Beginner & then just one difficulty higher than that… the A.I. acts like a skilled expert despite the fact there’s FOUR difficulties above that.

This is a case of some games not knowing how to properly balance difficulty, it’s where you go from too easy to too hard but there’s no in-between that feels just right.

Players Dont picked Relaxed Mode in DST because it’s not the one that’s recommended or Forced as their first choice, I’ve played games where before you could even enter multiplayer you had to learn every single playable characters abilities.

And it’s important that I mention that for DST, because you only truly know how to be helpful if you know what the other characters need/or will impact them negatively.

Case in point: A Newbie Wendy is going to have Abby Riled 24/7, but what that Wendy won’t know is that by doing this near a Wortox player can very quickly overload his souls capacity.

A Newbie Woodie is going to use an infinite durability Axe to destroy entire forests, but won’t be aware that will Tank a nearby Wormwoods Sanity if they’re chopping too close to them.

And if games like Smite, Rogue Company and Apex Legends required players to complete detailed character tutorials- You can obviously see where it would help newbies in understanding DST too right??

[abrocator]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Starving to Death & Freezing to Death are both problems that have been in the game since like 2013 and both of these issues have been significantly and I strongly mean SIGNIFICANTLY Lessened when Klei adds new mobs, new food sources or powerful as Frick Character Perks like Willows 2 day lasting Fire Mage spell

I agree that that’s pretty… funny. Because the game (DS) went from requiring relatively (back then) hard to get materials in order to do magic, and the magic would drain your sanity (at least a little) and a lot of it would be situational (like fire staff).

Now you light itty-bitty mobs on fire in order to anime firebreath the bosses.

 

Quote

I feel like I’m arguing with children

Well.

Quote

But if you allow players to “Spritz” things and turn them into purely decoration, then that disease can not spread.. the mobs that interact with diseased plants (berry bushes, trees etc..) can’t contaminate the purely decorative trees- And the disease itself is immediately stopped before it even has a chance to become a survival threat to you.

The decoration is totally irrelevant because it. is. decoration. Only. And like Grm9 said it’s way cheaper to just remove them. The “spritz” is stupid expensive.

If your “disease” mechanic can be preemptively countered by digging up stuff then you need to go back to the theorycraft board/table. Ain’t the humble shovel’s fault.

[00petar00]

42 minutes ago, grm9 said:

what'll you do if it'll end up being too hard for you? are you going to complain and ask to make default difficulty easier to force everyone that played on default difficulty to play on easy difficulty because you didn't want to play on easy difficulty?

Base game should have an easier difficulty to suit as many players as possible. Having expert mode like terraria would be helpful for players that want the game to be more difficult.

42 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that's an issue with you, not the game

Majority of gamers.

43 minutes ago, grm9 said:

they can try and change it if they won't like it on difficulty that they were playing on

After they lose a world to something dumb? At that point a good amount of players would still hold on to their pride and keep the same difficulty.

41 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Speak for yourself, there are some very hard games that I’ve only ever been able to actually beat on the easiest difficulty available.

I just think that you are in the minority, a lot of gamers will play the default difficulty.

48 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Case in point: A Newbie Wendy is going to have Abby Riled 24/7, but what that Wendy won’t know is that by doing this near a Wortox player can very quickly overload his souls capacity.

A Newbie Woodie is going to use an infinite durability Axe to destroy entire forests, but won’t be aware that will Tank a nearby Wormwoods Sanity if they’re chopping too close to them.

These are very specific multiplayer situations that won't happen regularly.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, 00petar00 said:

Base game should have an easier difficulty to suit as many players as possible. Having expert mode like terraria would be helpful for players that want the game to be more difficult

that's not related to what i said

1 minute ago, 00petar00 said:

Base game should have an easier difficulty to suit as many players as possible

relaxed mode

1 minute ago, 00petar00 said:

Having expert mode like terraria would be helpful for players that want the game to be more difficult

most of hard stuff's already optional e.g. bosses and rifts so no need for that, that'd split people

2 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Majority of gamers

statistics?

2 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

After they lose a world to something dumb? At that point a good amount of players would still hold on to their pride and keep the same difficulty

forcing themselves to do something that they don't like and won't get anything for's an issue with them

[Mike23Ua]

3 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Base game should have an easier difficulty to suit as many players as possible. Having expert mode like terraria would be helpful for players that want the game to be more difficult.

Majority of gamers.

After they lose a world to something dumb? At that point a good amount of players would still hold on to their pride and keep the same difficulty.

I just think that you are in the minority, a lot of gamers will play the default difficulty.

These are very specific multiplayer situations that won't happen regularly.

Oh but it DOES happen regularly, a Newbie Wurt Player isn’t going to know that they can dance frolic and play in the rain and their strong grip perk will prevent tools slipping out their hands, and they can give all the rain gear to WX78 who takes health damage without them.

[Mysterious box]

17 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

It will always be the case that only a small number of players are retained over a long period of time, the point is for developers to make money so as long as they can sell the game without big discount and maybe skins it is still very good.

That's actually not the case at all generally speaking if a developer is only retaining a small number of players overtime it usually means they're doing something wrong or the gameplay loop isn't enticing enough due to the genre people tend to stick with games that are updated overtime for a very long time if it's done well enough.

17 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't understand why we need booster shots when someone that keeps dying gets punished too much but experienced players won't have this issue.

This is penalty only applies to telltale hearts and drowning and even then booster shots don't come from hard to come by resources this is a non issue so long as the game becomes more transparent that booster shots exist.

17 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

There's the same problem with many things that don't make much sense like why does warrior spider drop the same loot as normal spiders that are easy to kill?

I don't really see why they should you don't "need" to fight them and in most cases you fight them because you the player didn't pay attention to the nest much like killing the deer in the klaus fight but a lot less punishing. I don't really see why the player should be rewarded for messing up. Also if your goal was to destroy the nest your reward in this case would be more silk from the den and a spider egg.

17 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Why is trap so terrible that rabbits need to walk perfectly into it to get caught?

I mean that's mostly because we like to game the system traps weren't meant for us to run the mob into them they were meant for us to use bait.

17 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

So many terrible crockpot recipes that don't make any sense and player isn't taught at all and recipes are not it because they can often be quite random and make no sense by suggesting the hardest to get ingredients when it can be done much cheaper.

There are so many ways to make the game easier that will help new players.

There being so many bad crockpot dishes I agree with but them giving non good ingredient combinations I feel is fine the point is to show the dishes exist it's up to the player to experiment within those boundaries to find more efficient ways to make those dishes that being said I feel like there needs to be more ways to obtain recipes cards as well.

Either way I feel like your going about making the game easier for new players with the wrong mindset just making the game easier isn't really the way to go unless even at the highest levels we make it easier. What players actually need is a way to more organically learn how to improve as that goes a lot further towards player retention than just giving them a free pass in the early game to just get smacked in the face with difficulty having learned next to nothing of value only a few hours later.

17 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Every new player will lose world at least 4-5 times before they can survive winter, first time everyone dies to darkness because they don't know they need light and there is so many dangers that it is easy to waste 5-10 hours until you can survive in autumn. DST is hard in a very bad way because it doesn't tell you what to do and what is efficient so this is very frustrating for new players

I mean that's exactly what I'm getting at though the game needs to teach the player more but it doesn't that's where the problem lies. New players don't know what touch stones are, they don't know they can build meat effigies to teleport to when they die, they don't know about life giving amulets, and even in groups some might not even know about telltale hearts or that haunting a spider while your dead forces it to 100% drop spider glans. The game doesn't even tell you rollbacks exist and that's where a ton of the frustration comes from. The vast majority of the game's difficulty really mainly just comes from lack of knowledge on what you can do and how mechanics work and the sheer amount of hidden information isn't doing the game any favors in that department either.

17 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

That basically reinforces what I have been saying that boss fights are too punishing and require too much prep time for a newer player. While we can kill bosses by kiting most new players will only do more harm kiting compared to just tanking it and they still try to kite so they need more armor and healing compared to someone purely tanking the boss.

Again this isn't really the case a new player can learn boss fights just fine we all did right? Not a single person speaking honestly learned and mastered every boss fight in this game on a first attempt no one starts as a veteran player. The issue isn't that boss fights are too punishing it's that the game doesn't teach you how to handle those boss fights it's a completely different issue the game expects you to figure things out on your own and while some people can do that better than others there are just some who can never figure it out on their own and give up.

17 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

A lot of people don't know what to expect from the game and will usually go with default also they may be stubborn or have pride and don't want to choose the easy mode. Default preset should be made easier and hardcore or whatever you want to call it should be for players with 1000-2000+ hours players.

Honestly it's a losing battle no matter how you slice it if Klei suddenly made say relaxed mode the default experience people would simply switch to the new "hard mode" by default because enough people know what the default experience is and their pride won't allow them to be "lied" to same goes for if Klei made a even easier easy mode they'll feel like they're being patronized this sort of thing works better for a new game than a long running one usually.

That being said dst already has a harder mode preset in the form of lights out.

18 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I could've been more clear, what I am trying to say is that there were quite a few discussions where "uncompromising" hardcore players say that difficulty with bosses doesn't translate to what they want with the game. They want more sesonal and survival challenges that are forced upon you and no matter how difficult a boss is if you aren't forced to interact with it they only see it as optional difficulty.

Ironically it's not just a specific set of players who wants more seasonal events I've spoken to various players who seem to want seasonal and survival challenges some even more supportive of this specifically because they're not good at fighting bosses or just flat out have no interest in boss fights like I get it dst is basically a boss rush game but not everyone wants to play it like that.

18 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

You nailed it here, players that don't mind brightshades have never had multiple 2000+ day worlds and they don't find them annoying since by the time they activate rifts they have killed most bosses and are about to quit but they go to forums and argue brightshades are a good addition to the game in their current state.

This is about as bad faith as saying megabasers don't do boss fights.

18 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Most survival only focused players that will notice how the game becomes easier and easier as you kill more bosses and obtain more really good loot like bundling wrap, furnace, polar bearger bin and have knobby trees covering their surface base. I don't see how game can be fun to them when they can counter all of the dangers over time and often complain on the forums how everything can be countered.

Not even close to most who play the game as a survival game is good at fighting bosses and even then they're not all efficient with what they gain so I don't get where you got that most from. It'd be like me saying most megabasers delete their worlds after finishing their base. Source? Well what else do they do after they finish must be bored right?

18 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

There were a lot more people wanting uncontrolled base destruction when I expected that there would be none, I don't know how active you were at that time but there were threads made to support it even though rifts wouldn't affect most survival only players in the long term as they will quit before it becomes an issue.

There really weren't it was like 3 people just like how there are a few vocal people who made other bad suggestions like being able to lock items, making a player a moderator on klei servers, removing the reboot server function, and the nerf wolfgang more threads for example. Just because there's a few people who want those sorts of things doesn't mean they represent what everyone wants.

18 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

It is mostly not possible because survival players can easily ignore most additions made to suit megabasers and the only part that affects them is base destruction and how difficult survival part of the game should be that we are often very against having more things added that will make it annoying after thousands of game days.

The only solution is to have a different preset like terraria difficulty settings but I don't know If klei wants to do this as they would be required to basically spend a lot of time developing another mode because current presets are very simple and it would need to be on another level. 

I am mostly a megabaser but I would still play different difficulty if it was like Terraria because my brain works that way because I wouldn't feel great about missing on cool new items that are specific to that difficulty. So this could be the solution for hardcore players as base game is only bound to get easier and unless this happens they will either quit or accept it.

I mean unless klei fully changed their mindset which doesn't seem likely they wouldn't do that since it would split the player base but even if they did there would definitely be new items and rewards for playing on a harder difficulty even you seemed to somewhat agree about this sort of thing considering how you feel about compensation between spiders and spider warriors. Then obviously a harder mode with new content geared towards survival would have new items and gear. That being said in a sense it does seem to be what post rift content is intended to be though so I'm kind of hoping we get more seasonal content through it as time goes on. That being said I don't really think there's a large set of players who feel the game is too easy there are definitely some but most people just want the world to test them more throughout the seasons rather than the mostly hands off way seasons have with the world. Also just to clarify that doesn't mean localize all of it to base. It does kinda feel like you guys are suffering from burnout though.

[arubaro]

Srly someone is complaining about rabbits not having more collision with traps?? You can be glad that isnt a must to use bait to trap creatures...

[zhangsheng]

I didn't expect this post to continue. People are trying to discuss a result, but it may not be in Klei's plan at all. We can only see significant changes after the skill tree is completed.

[Mike23Ua]

Unpopular opinion but the franchise product description reads as “no hand holding, survive your way” yet… people still complain that it needs to be easier to understand for newbie players.

No no it does not- Just like Resident Evil never needed to become a damn quick time event riddled action shooter, but it did anyway because hurr hurr that’s what was most popular and sold at the time, I’m glad they finally eventually went back to their roots with more traditional Survival Puzzle Horror, but.. it took them making mistakes of chasing what’s most popular to realize people weren’t playing RE to play “generic copy of insert other shooter here…” people were playing RE BECAUSE it was RE.

And that’s a mistake Klei seems to be making with DST, fans of Dont Starve did not play DS to have their hands held with detailed tutorials and step by step guides, (although some of the more obscure stuff in this game TOTALLY needs to be less Obscure) like let’s remove the whole “Somethings must be discovered on your own” quote- That helps no one and I just look it up on Wikipedia pages what I’m supposed to do.

Would it really hurt Klei to add something like trade “picture of empty bottle” to “picture of crabby grannies head” when looking at items you can’t craft yet like the pinching winch?

No.. no it would not.

But what IS Hurting the game is lowering content difficulty, buffing characters with absurd powers, removing features people don’t find enjoyable??? (Klei it’s not up to the 95% of these forums to decide that…)

These forums are now pulling in new types of players, players who the game franchise wasn’t designed for, because the franchise is trying to be more accessible to a more casual audience.

But, and mark my words… you’re repeating the same mistakes Resident Evil did.

and I can’t speak for everyone, but for me personally when the games I’m playing keep becoming more and more like another game that I don’t play, the more likely it is I’ll play the game I didn’t want to play.

For example: I actually Stopped playing Apex Legends when it kept becoming more and more like Fortnite, I was just thinking to myself “damn… if this game is going to get the same stupid emotes and gameplay fortnite has, why don’t I just give in and play Fortnite instead?”

And that was Apex’s mistake- Instead of being that more realistic serious Battle Royale team shooter, it went into “Fortnite Clone territory.”

And if the DS franchise continues down the path it’s going, continues to become more and more like “insert popular sandbox game here”

The less likely I am to continue to play DS and the more likely I am to just play the game it’s becoming a generic clone of.

And what tends to happen in that case (at least most the time in my personal experience) is that if a franchise stops offering what I enjoyed about it, I’ll look for that same enjoyment out of a new franchise elsewhere.

You want to know what the saddest part of history is?

it’s destined to repeat itself yet no one ever learns from it.

[ChintzyGnat]

16 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Unpopular opinion but the franchise product description reads as “no hand holding, survive your way” yet… people still complain that it needs to be easier to understand for newbie players.

No no it does not- Just like Resident Evil never needed to become a damn quick time event riddled action shooter, but it did anyway because hurr hurr that’s what was most popular and sold at the time, I’m glad they finally eventually went back to their roots with more traditional Survival Puzzle Horror, but.. it took them making mistakes of chasing what’s most popular to realize people weren’t playing RE to play “generic copy of insert other shooter here…” people were playing RE BECAUSE it was RE.

And that’s a mistake Klei seems to be making with DST, fans of Dont Starve did not play DS to have their hands held with detailed tutorials and step by step guides, (although some of the more obscure stuff in this game TOTALLY needs to be less Obscure) like let’s remove the whole “Somethings must be discovered on your own” quote- That helps no one and I just look it up on Wikipedia pages what I’m supposed to do.

Would it really hurt Klei to add something like trade “picture of empty bottle” to “picture of crabby grannies head” when looking at items you can’t craft yet like the pinching winch?

No.. no it would not.

But what IS Hurting the game is lowering content difficulty, buffing characters with absurd powers, removing features people don’t find enjoyable??? (Klei it’s not up to the 95% of these forums to decide that…)

These forums are now pulling in new types of players, players who the game franchise wasn’t designed for, because the franchise is trying to be more accessible to a more casual audience.

But, and mark my words… you’re repeating the same mistakes Resident Evil did.

and I can’t speak for everyone, but for me personally when the games I’m playing keep becoming more and more like another game that I don’t play, the more likely it is I’ll play the game I didn’t want to play.

For example: I actually Stopped playing Apex Legends when it kept becoming more and more like Fortnite, I was just thinking to myself “damn… if this game is going to get the same stupid emotes and gameplay fortnite has, why don’t I just give in and play Fortnite instead?”

And that was Apex’s mistake- Instead of being that more realistic serious Battle Royale team shooter, it went into “Fortnite Clone territory.”

And if the DS franchise continues down the path it’s going, continues to become more and more like “insert popular sandbox game here”

The less likely I am to continue to play DS and the more likely I am to just play the game it’s becoming a generic clone of.

And what tends to happen in that case (at least most the time in my personal experience) is that if a franchise stops offering what I enjoyed about it, I’ll look for that same enjoyment out of a new franchise elsewhere.

You want to know what the saddest part of history is?

it’s destined to repeat itself yet no one ever learns from it.

People arnt trying to make don't starve easier for noobies just more clear in stuff you can do. Klei is simply trying to make stuff less obscure and make the player go to the wiki. In turn this can make the game easier.

Also the reference for apex is goofy as all hell, no correlation when don't starve is way more unique than any survival game out there.

[abrocator]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

No no it does not- Just like Resident Evil never needed to become a damn quick time event riddled action shooter, but it did anyway because hurr hurr that’s what was most popular and sold at the time,

RE4 is a classic and a masterpiece.

Where’s everyone going? Bingo?

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, ChintzyGnat said:

People arnt trying to make don't starve easier for noobies just more clear in stuff you can do. Klei is simply trying to make stuff less obscure and make the player go to the wiki. In turn this can make the game easier.

Also the reference for apex is goofy as all hell, no correlation when don't starve is way more unique than any survival game out there.

I’m honestly just about ready to argue the point if we can call DST a survival game. I mean yeah it’s a Survival game in the sense that you need to search for food, or find ways to survive the games weather, or having to avoid hound wave attacks every 7 days like 7 Days to Die.

But is it a Survival game in the same sense that Lego Fortnite, Minecraft or even the above mentioned, 7 days to die LFN & MC Both will spawn hostile threats “around you” if you’re out at Dusk/Night. Or do you run into randomly generated mobs while out scavenging buildings the same way you would in 7 Days to Die or State of Decay?

No DST is more of a “Structured Survival Game” meaning that.. you the player can become overly familiar with what spawns where, or where to look for certain mobs, the only places being attacked by random mob encounters MIGHT happen in DST is on boat trips out at sea.

Otherwise, every mob has its biome it spawns in rather the mob is hostile or peaceful, the only exceptions would be seasonal bosses, which again those spawn in on a specific day in a specific weather season.

My point is that DST is too Scripted to consider itself a quote “Uncompromising Survival game”

You the PLAYER however can trigger new things (such as chasing down hunt trails that randomly spawn a Varg or Ewecus) But the game does not do like Minecraft or Lego Fortnite where it’ll spawn mobs to challenge you at dusk/night (maybe some super late game rift content might but that’s too far into the game to matter..)

It doesn’t even give me the same adrenaline rush that 7 days to die or state of decay can where your trying to stealthily loot a building, didn’t fully clear the building of zombies and you end up being unlucky enough to get a screaming zombie or gas zombie to either force you to flee the buildings toxic gas cloud, or they scream out bringing a whole new nightmare on you.

With DST you don’t really get that kind of experience, you’ll go to a biome, you’ll see 5 red hounds sleeping around a firestaff in the middle of them, or you’ll find Charlie’s rose bush stage set pieces, you’ll make this mistake only ONCE and then you’ll come back to experience this same scripted event again with more knowledge of what to do and how to engage with it.

But when it comes to Lego Fortnite or Minecraft, You can’t ever actually be fully “prepared” for what might spawn after you.

And that’s why I’m pushing DST out of the category of Survival game, and now choose to consider it as an open world sandbox.

And even though some review pages categorize DST as a RogueLike (shockingly in the top 15 list no less!!) I sadly find DST to be the least RogueLike game I’ve ever played, that still somehow considers itself to be a RogueLike.

(sorry if this post sounds like a rant, I’m just trying to understand other peoples points of view, while explaining my own.)

[ChintzyGnat]

15 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m honestly just about ready to argue the point if we can call DST a survival game. I mean yeah it’s a Survival game in the sense that you need to search for food, or find ways to survive the games weather, or having to avoid hound wave attacks every 7 days like 7 Days to Die.

But is it a Survival game in the same sense that Lego Fortnite, Minecraft or even the above mentioned, 7 days to die LFN & MC Both will spawn hostile threats “around you” if you’re out at Dusk/Night. Or do you run into randomly generated mobs while out scavenging buildings the same way you would in 7 Days to Die or State of Decay?

No DST is more of a “Structured Survival Game” meaning that.. you the player can become overly familiar with what spawns where, or where to look for certain mobs, the only places being attacked by random mob encounters MIGHT happen in DST is on boat trips out at sea.

Otherwise, every mob has its biome it spawns in rather the mob is hostile or peaceful, the only exceptions would be seasonal bosses, which again those spawn in on a specific day in a specific weather season.

My point is that DST is too Scripted to consider itself a quote “Uncompromising Survival game”

You the PLAYER however can trigger new things (such as chasing down hunt trails that randomly spawn a Varg or Ewecus) But the game does not do like Minecraft or Lego Fortnite where it’ll spawn mobs to challenge you at dusk/night (maybe some super late game rift content might but that’s too far into the game to matter..)

It doesn’t even give me the same adrenaline rush that 7 days to die or state of decay can where your trying to stealthily loot a building, didn’t fully clear the building of zombies and you end up being unlucky enough to get a screaming zombie or gas zombie to either force you to flee the buildings toxic gas cloud, or they scream out bringing a whole new nightmare on you.

With DST you don’t really get that kind of experience, you’ll go to a biome, you’ll see 5 red hounds sleeping around a firestaff in the middle of them, or you’ll find Charlie’s rose bush stage set pieces, you’ll make this mistake only ONCE and then you’ll come back to experience this same scripted event again with more knowledge of what to do and how to engage with it.

But when it comes to Lego Fortnite or Minecraft, You can’t ever actually be fully “prepared” for what might spawn after you.

And that’s why I’m pushing DST out of the category of Survival game, and now choose to consider it as an open world sandbox.

And even though some review pages categorize DST as a RogueLike (shockingly in the top 15 list no less!!) I sadly find DST to be the least RogueLike game I’ve ever played, that still somehow considers itself to be a RogueLike.

(sorry if this post sounds like a rant, I’m just trying to understand other peoples points of view, while explaining my own.)

I cant change the game to the way you like and dst is just hard for new people, ofc your gonna know what's gonna happen after 300 hours, same for what ever game you play that isn't just 100% rng.

I personally like the structured generation instead of wandering aimlessly and praying for something, like old ds where you might just not have deerclops spawn. Infact rng is the one thing I actively hate in games and is why I love dst.