Discussion : Klei does wrong decisions with good intentions

[Swiyss]

Let me try to explain the title the best way possible. And this is not a hate topic or anything.

I ask my girlfriend for cookies at the store, she brings dough and tells me "but we got an oven at home".

Do you see what I mean? Idk exactly how to explain this but.. she did bring me cookies, but not the way I wanted it.

However.. It's not that big of a deal to bake cookies.. unless there's the fact that we live with our son, and he doesn't know how to bake.

See where I'm getting?

Sure my son WILL eventually learn how to bake, but he might... create a bad memory for eating raw dough and seeing his parents eating cookies and never eat a cookie again.

And there's also my neighbour next door who doesn't have an oven, knows how to cook, but prefers white chocolate ones.

Basically "I" am the part of the community that wants the game to get better for me. My "girlfriend" is Klei, which does what I want in their way, but it only works for me, as my "son" (people who don't participate in the forums and play dst for fun every once in a year) can't cook and my "neighbour" (part of the community that wants the opposite of me, but can't even get a piece of what I got since it can't even participate) who received the leftover dough that we got. There's also my dog which are the modders who don't care of getting baked or raw cookies but they can deal with themselves.

All I'm saying is, there is a world where the girlfriend brings flour, eggs, milk, white chocolate, brown chocolate, and a brand new oven. There's even leftover milk for a cat.

It's just that, instead of Klei bringing one addition to the game to care for the majority, it can try to bring the materials, so we can piece it out the way we want to and play the game in "our" way. Or atleast live together.

Sure sure, I can always mod the game, change world settings, played however I like, but it only gets us too far. We're talking about the actual updates.

To give an in-game example : I do not give a single cookie about my whole base and the world burning and exploding or whatever, I actually like that, I want that. But some megabases hate that. How did Klei fixed this? By.. not making the world burn anymore.. and even adding a stone pillar for the rare people who base in the caves even.. If this is not one-sided then idk what would be. 

Klei you're awesome, not complaining here, just trying to be transparent and reasonable. Take my criticism with a grain of salt.

EDIT : TLDR if you don't understand this weird metaphor : Klei gives a problem, and a solution at the same time, and these solutions are basically just tasks instead of cool gameplay mechanics, just like the stone pillar example.

[Waoling]

What do you actually want out of Klei for the game? If you actually want something I think you should be talking straight.

[Swiyss]

14 minutes ago, Waoling said:

What do you actually want out of Klei for the game? If you actually want something I think you should be talking straight.

 

45 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I do not give a single cookie about my whole base and the world burning and exploding or whatever, I actually like that, I want that. But some megabases hate that. How did Klei fixed this? By.. not making the world burn anymore.. and even adding a stone pillar for the rare people who base in the caves even.. If this is not one-sided then idk what would be. 

 

[Gashzer]

Hey!

Klei is my girlfriend!

Back off punk! 

[benfroyobro9381]

bro you didn't need to make a whole ass metaphor about a girlfriend or something for: company makes mistakes. 
but i'm glad you did because it felt therapeutic to read. 

[Waoling]

2 hours ago, Swiyss said:

I do not give a single cookie about my whole base and the world burning and exploding or whatever, I actually like that, I want that. But some megabases hate that. How did Klei fixed this? By.. not making the world burn anymore.. and even adding a stone pillar for the rare people who base in the caves even.. If this is not one-sided then idk what would be. 

You can still turn on wild fire in the setting same as you don't need the make stone pillar if you want to have cave in.

The girlfriend metaphor doesn't really work since Klei isn't just your girlfriend, Klei is a company, so the metaphor should be more like a nation or something, because Klei isn't here to just suit your taste.

[flamboyant wolf]

2 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Let me try to explain the title the best way possible. And this is not a hate topic or anything.

I ask my girlfriend for cookies at the store, she brings dough and tells me "but we got an oven at home".

Do you see what I mean? Idk exactly how to explain this but.. she did bring me cookies, but not the way I wanted it.

However.. It's not that big of a deal to bake cookies.. unless there's the fact that we live with our son, and he doesn't know how to bake.

See where I'm getting?

Sure my son WILL eventually learn how to bake, but he might... create a bad memory for eating raw dough and seeing his parents eating cookies and never eat a cookie again.

And there's also my neighbour next door who doesn't have an oven, knows how to cook, but prefers white chocolate ones.

Basically "I" am the part of the community that wants the game to get better for me. My "girlfriend" is Klei, which does what I want in their way, but it only works for me, as my "son" (people who don't participate in the forums and play dst for fun every once in a year) can't cook and my "neighbour" (part of the community that wants the opposite of me, but can't even get a piece of what I got since it can't even participate) who received the leftover dough that we got. There's also my dog which are the modders who don't care of getting baked or raw cookies but they can deal with themselves.

 

Sorry, but this is the weirdest analogy I've seen in a while.

This implies every person in the family needs to know how to bake to make themselves cookies, when the dough is already ready, which is already pretty weird, as well as inefficient. Like, are you going out of your way to make some for yourself, but none for your son for some reason? Also, why are you letting him eat raw dough, don't do that, he might get sick

Also, how is the neighbour even supposed to play into all of this? This example implies klei(the girlfriend) has a level of commitment to you(you) and your son(people who don't use forums), but then the other part of the community you're talking about(the neighbour) are just there? Like, the neighbour didn't even ask for cookies at any point, as far as we're concerned. Neighbour in this analogy would be a person who has no stakes in the whole situation, an outsider, who got some dough. They'd rather have something else, but they won't complain, free dough!

Then the comparison of modders to dogs, of all things? Wouldn't they be bakers, who may add some changes to the dough or make some from scratch, in this analogy?

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to make fun or anything, but, genuinely. What. 

[Theukon-dos]

I'm going to be completely honest here. None of what you said made sense. I can hardly even begin to parse it because of how little sense it made.

The only thing I can maybe sorta scrape from it is that you're basically just saying "A game made to appeal to everyone appeals to no one".

[Wormboi]

17 minutes ago, skile said:

Sorry, but this is the weirdest analogy I've seen in a while.

This implies every person in the family needs to know how to bake to make themselves cookies, when the dough is already ready, which is already pretty weird, as well as inefficient. Like, are you going out of your way to make some for yourself, but none for your son for some reason? Also, why are you letting him eat raw dough, don't do that, he might get sick

Also, how is the neighbour even supposed to play into all of this? This example implies klei(the girlfriend) has a level of commitment to you(you) and your son(people who don't use forums), but then the other part of the community you're talking about(the neighbour) are just there? Like, the neighbour didn't even ask for cookies at any point, as far as we're concerned. Neighbour in this analogy would be a person who has no stakes in the whole situation, an outsider, who got some dough. They'd rather have something else, but they won't complain, free dough!

Then the comparison of modders to dogs, of all things? Wouldn't they be bakers, who may add some changes to the dough or make some from scratch, in this analogy?

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to make fun or anything, but, genuinely. What. 

I agree with this but also

 

3 hours ago, Swiyss said:

To give an in-game example : I do not give a single cookie about my whole base and the world burning and exploding or whatever, I actually like that, I want that. But some megabases hate that. How did Klei fixed this? By.. not making the world burn anymore.. and even adding a stone pillar for the rare people who base in the caves even.. If this is not one-sided then idk what would be. 

Just because doesnt effect you doesnt mean effects others, you just turn on wildfires or any destructive things in the game

[Jakepeng99]

The metaphore went on for way too long it just needed to be the first 2 lines,

[Evelo]

What a weird analogy. I struggle to fully follow.

3 minutes ago, Wormboi said:

Just because doesnt effect you doesnt mean effects others, you just turn of wildfires or any destructive things in the game

Yeah but there are things that don't affect me because I can opt out of it but it does affect the gameplay for everyone involved in how it affects balance.
See the Celestial Portal and the new Skill Sets. There is a cost to everything. Even if that thing seem purely good. Someone will suffer, someone always suffers. Just have to decide if the utilitarian approach works best. (Which I believe is typically the case for profits)                  (My enter doesn't work for some reason, sorry.)       For instance I think the removal of the Celestial Portal would be a huge benefit to the health of the game because of how character balancing is played out. However, I am the minority and more people would be upset by the result of this decision than would be happy. So it is best to not do so from Klei's perspective. Hope that makes sense.

[Mike23Ua]

6 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

I'm going to be completely honest here. None of what you said made sense. I can hardly even begin to parse it because of how little sense it made.

The only thing I can maybe sorta scrape from it is that you're basically just saying "A game made to appeal to everyone appeals to no one".

Or maybe perhaps a game with a bunch of different mode settings, toggle options and choices- could use more of all of that instead of trying to turn the game into a “One Mode fits All” jumbled mess?

Look I love Klei really I do (I wouldn’t still be on these forums if I Didn’t love their games) But- okay as just an example I’m currently playing a “Lights Out” world as Winona, sure she makes the mode easier with her spotlights and whatever, but while playing this mode there are quite a few core gameplay mechanics that stand out from the “Default Survival Experience” The first and most obvious one is Permanent world Darkness, but.. beyond that Mobs that would normally sleep during the day and roam at night are out and always active in lights out, this means that the smallest thing can make a huge difference-

Such as a Busted open cave hole now has bats pouring out 24/7 rather than at specific times of the day. Tallbirds will also pursue you more relentlessly and are less likely to drop aggro as soon as they do on “Default”

But it makes me question why Klei hasn’t released a Shadow Rift themed update where they will invade the surface shard and shroud the land in Darkness so players who aren’t playing exclusively in Lights Out Mode, can briefly get the Lights Out experience?

Small changes like that would really go a long way in doing a lot more content for the game, with animations and game mechanics that are already present within the game.

I highly recommend playing something like “Soul Knight” it’s a free mobile App but- it has 6 different game modes, and each one drastically shakes the core foundation of how you’ll interact with and engage with playing the game so that each mode is different and unique.

[Waoling]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

But it makes me question why Klei hasn’t released a Shadow Rift themed update where they will invade the surface shard and shroud the land in Darkness so players who aren’t playing exclusively in Lights Out Mode, can briefly get the Lights Out experience?

Because this already happen when you defeat Celestial Champion, and I think if this were to happen, then Lunar Rift should invade the Cave Shard, causing it to not have Darkness, and shadow align creature to be attack by Lunar mob.

[Theukon-dos]

19 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Or maybe perhaps a game with a bunch of different mode settings, toggle options and choices- could use more of all of that instead of trying to turn the game into a “One Mode fits All” jumbled mess?

Honestly? Absolutely.

I feel like every problem this game has seen over the last 3 years could be solved simply by including a hard-mode toggle on world creation instead of trying to please everyone by jumping through enough hoops to supply the entire US circus industry.

Just a simple equivalent to Terraria's expert mode that improves enemy AI, makes seasons more hostile, and lowers the player's ability to sustain themselves would go miles. Klei could still casualify the game to appeal to a broader market, while the people who remember when you could call the game "Uncompromising" with a straight face aren't left high and dry for it.

[DegenerateFurry]

This feels like I'm reading a particularly unhinged post on 4chan, I have no idea what you're even getting at. Do you just dislike being able to turn off wildfires in settings? Then don't do that. 

[Swiyss]

10 hours ago, Wormboi said:

I agree with this but also

 

Just because doesnt effect you doesnt mean effects others, you just turn on wildfires or any destructive things in the game

yeah I don't understand. I already play with wildfires on and I don't megabase too. It's just that I think Klei is sorta caring too much about the megabasers and forgetting to add actual difficulties and things that interupt the player. It's as simple as that.

10 hours ago, Evelo said:

What a weird analogy. I struggle to fully follow.

Yeah but there are things that don't affect me because I can opt out of it but it does affect the gameplay for everyone involved in how it affects balance.
See the Celestial Portal and the new Skill Sets. There is a cost to everything. Even if that thing seem purely good. Someone will suffer, someone always suffers. Just have to decide if the utilitarian approach works best. (Which I believe is typically the case for profits)                  (My enter doesn't work for some reason, sorry.)       For instance I think the removal of the Celestial Portal would be a huge benefit to the health of the game because of how character balancing is played out. However, I am the minority and more people would be upset by the result of this decision than would be happy. So it is best to not do so from Klei's perspective. Hope that makes sense.

Yeah exactly. Wanting the game to be a little more destructive is the same as the balance argument. It only affect the perspective of gameplay.

The thought "Why am I playing wicker if I can just play max and read her books?" will terrorize people the same way that the thought "Why even try to protect my base if it won't get destroyed anyway?" affects me.

Basically placing a bunch of pillar around the caves is just another task instead of an actual feel of Player Vs Developer where the dev is trying to ruin the players little bases and the players are coming with a bunch of ideas with the MATERIALS that klei gave to them.

My analogy might not make sense but if you understand it, it's so true. Nowadays Klei will just care too much for the player and create specific intended ways to outcome their own challenges. THIS is my complain. I just didn't explained it very well.

[Mysterious box]

12 hours ago, Wormboi said:

Just because doesnt effect you doesnt mean effects others, you just turn on wildfires or any destructive things in the game

I mean the reverse is also true.

2 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Basically placing a bunch of pillar around the caves is just another task instead of an actual feel of Player Vs Developer where the dev is trying to ruin the players little bases and the players are coming with a bunch of ideas with the MATERIALS that klei gave to them.

Personally my thought on content like this is if it's detrimental enough to absolutely need a permanent solution it probably shouldn't have been added or it should be revised.

2 hours ago, Swiyss said:

My analogy might not make sense but if you understand it, it's so true. Nowadays Klei will just care too much for the player and create specific intended ways to outcome their own challenges. THIS is my complain. I just didn't explained it very well.

That being said I think it should just be accepted that dst is a different game than what it was and noone really has time for overcoming challenges for better or worse so just try to enjoy what we have.

[Mike23Ua]

It’s a simple concept really, if I’m playing a game mode labeled as “Survival” then it should have gameplay mechanics & features that challenge against my survival, and NEVER should this mode become an open ended free to do whatever you want sandbox. Thats what “Endless” mode should strive to be.

The two best ways I can explain it is like this: 

Imagine playing a shooter, any shooter doesn’t matter which one, okay well on the Core gameplay mode bullets are plentiful and everywhere & your characters health will slowly regenerate on its own after taking damage, however on a more difficult mode choice you very seldomly find bullets, you have to make every shot count.. and you need to heal yourself with med-kits.

OR we can use Fortnite as an example, Fortnite now has several different types of “Modes”

Battle Royale, Zero Build, Team Runble Reloaded, Rocket Racing, Lego Fortnite, & Jam Festival.

BR is the standard default mode, you can build structures & attempt to wipe out all enemy squads etc.

Zero Build is Battle Royale but without the ability to build any kind of structures.

Team Rumble is a mode where two teams of players fight to get a certain amount of kills to win the game, you will respawn endlessly in this mode until one team gets the required score.

Reloaded is a new mode.. it’s still Battle Royale but with a twist, players who get eliminated will respawn if there’s at least one remaining player left in their team, if they’re entire team gets wiped before one of them can respawn then your all eliminated.

Rocket Racing ditches the guns altogether and effectively turns Fortnite into Hot Wheels Unleashed 2 or Disney Speedstorm racing.

Lego Fortnite is well it’s a survival sandbox experience that plays similar to Minecraft or Don’t Starve Together where you’ll collect resources, craft items, fight off mobs and avoid starvation etc..

Jam Festival effectively turns the game into Guitar Hero, Rock Band, or for those of you as old as dirt like me “Frequency” from the PS One Demo disk Era.

My point is that Klei has EVERY Tool at their disposal to broaden the appeal of DST by changing the “rules” of what your even expected to do in the game, rules that depending on which game mode you select by all means could & should provide the players with many different ways of playing and enjoying the content the game has to offer.

As just one example I can provided I bought Sonic Origins Plus about two year ago (we all know sonic so I won’t discuss that in detail here) but this game featured a mode that I personally found really cool- “Boss Rush” you get a limited pool of lives to try and take down all the bosses of the franchise across all the games in the collection.

Why should I bring that up? 
probably because DST has enough bosses to put a sonic franchise collection to shame?

If you’ve read this far down or if you skipped to find the TL:DR- Yes Klei CAN Cater the game to players of various different playstyles and skill sets, they can even offer up new modes of play that may or may not appeal to certain audiences.

Personally Id really love to see them do something like a RogueLite mode, or a Dungeons & Dragons Mode where the game can actually use within actual gameplay the “dice roll” feature that seems to only exist so players in a public server can call dibs on loot drops???

[Swiyss]

47 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Personally my thought on content like this is if it's detrimental enough to absolutely need a permanent solution it probably shouldn't have been added or it should be revised.

Then question the existence of the game itself since it is basically based on this since early development, hence the addition of hounds and deerclops.

58 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

noone really has time for overcoming challenges

.-.

22 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Thats what “Endless” mode should strive to be.

This is common sense, yet ppl still don't understand.

27 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Klei has EVERY Tool at their disposal to broaden the appeal of DST by changing the “rules” of what your even expected to do in the game,

This is true cause we got forge, gorge, hamlet and shipwrecked.

[Mike23Ua]

29 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Then question the existence of the game itself since it is basically based on this since early development, hence the addition of hounds and deerclops.

.-.

This is common sense, yet ppl still don't understand.

This is true cause we got forge, gorge, hamlet and shipwrecked.

Gorge & Forge aren’t exactly what I meant, but like okay say for example: Klei has a mode called “Lights Out” and this mode shouldn’t have the same gameplay or rules as the default game mode.

Lights Out mode was made significantly easier when Klei added newer content updates like Forgotten Knowledges so players playing in this mode can just catch a few lightbulb bugs and defeat the entire purpose of the mode.

What should instead probably happen is that the bulb bugs don’t spawn on this mode, or something..

You defiantly shouldn’t be able to build the Midsummers Cawnival ticket booths for free infinite night lights.

Even character skills! If Willows Fireball Spell or Winona’s Spotlights or WX78 hehe funny night vision circuits are too powerful for this game mode then Klei needs to (specifically while playing this mode) change the games behavior..

For example maybe Charlie’s shadow hands can attempt to steal Willows Fireball or Power down Winona’s Lights, Perhaps WX Nightvision glitches out or simply doesn’t always work 24/7.

But Klei actually has to put in the extra effort to make each mode unique and different rather than just going 

“Default- one playstyle fits all!”

[NPCMaxwell]

45 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Gorge & Forge aren’t exactly what I meant, but like okay say for example: Klei has a mode called “Lights Out” and this mode shouldn’t have the same gameplay or rules as the default game mode.

Lights Out mode was made significantly easier when Klei added newer content updates like Forgotten Knowledges so players playing in this mode can just catch a few lightbulb bugs and defeat the entire purpose of the mode.

What should instead probably happen is that the bulb bugs don’t spawn on this mode, or something..

You defiantly shouldn’t be able to build the Midsummers Cawnival ticket booths for free infinite night lights.

Even character skills! If Willows Fireball Spell or Winona’s Spotlights or WX78 hehe funny night vision circuits are too powerful for this game mode then Klei needs to (specifically while playing this mode) change the games behavior..

For example maybe Charlie’s shadow hands can attempt to steal Willows Fireball or Power down Winona’s Lights, Perhaps WX Nightvision glitches out or simply doesn’t always work 24/7.

But Klei actually has to put in the extra effort to make each mode unique and different rather than just going 

“Default- one playstyle fits all!”

I would probably play the light out WAY more if shadow hands had a rather high chance to spawn and try to take away your lightsources. Imagine the creepy music box melody from all sides while you run back and forth to chase them away constantly

[Swiyss]

50 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

For example maybe Charlie’s shadow hands can attempt to steal Willows Fireball or Power down Winona’s Lights, Perhaps WX Nightvision glitches out or simply doesn’t always work 24/7.

I think that's super cool. Doing that would make this game mode so much nicer to play.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

Then question the existence of the game itself since it is basically based on this since early development, hence the addition of hounds and deerclops.

Feel like you completely misunderstood what I was getting at. What I was saying was if they're going to introduce a new mechanic later in the game only to give it a permanent solution then the mechanic itself is redundant and should be reconsidered.

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

noone really has time for overcoming challenges

Point being made is sadly the average player doesn't want to be challenged anymore and doing so is often considered a game flaw these days. I'm not a fan of it but it is what it is.

[Waoling]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

What I was saying was if they're going to introduce a new mechanic later in the game only to give it a permanent solution then the mechanic itself is redundant and should be reconsidered.

What mechanic have permanent solution?